Question on Daniel 8 Prince of Princes

[InChristAlways]

I have a question on Daniel 8:25 for others from another thread.

Who/what is the "prince of princes" representing in Daniel 8:25, and by what means is the "adversary" broken in pieces without "hand". This event appears to be the Great War/Host of Daniel 11.

I view it as the Prince of the NC of Jeremiah 31 promised to OC Israel/Judah of the "flesh" and the new Israel of God
Thanks.

Daniel 8:25 `And by his understanding he hath also caused deceit to prosper in his hand, and in his heart he exalts himself, and by ease he destroyeth/corrupts many; and against the Prince [#08269] of Princes [#08269] he standeth--and without hand he ["adversary"] is broken.

Daniel 12:1 `And at that time stand up doth Michael, the great chief/prince [#08269], who is standing up for the sons of thy people, and there hath been a time of distress, such as hath not been since there hath been a Nation till that time, and at that time do thy people escape, every one who is found written in the book.

Matthew 21:43 `Because of this I say to you, that the reign of God shall be taken from you,["adversary"?] and given to a Nation [Kingdom of the Prince of Princes?] bringing forth its fruit;

Reve 12:7 And there came war in the heaven; Michael and his messengers did war against the dragon ["adversary"?], and the dragon did war, and his messengers,

 

[mee]

I have a question on Daniel 8:25 for others from another thread.

Who/what is the "prince of princes" representing in Daniel 8:25, and by what means is the "adversary" broken in pieces without "hand". This event appears to be the Great War/Host of Daniel 11.

I view it as the Prince of the NC of Jeremiah 31 promised to OC Israel/Judah of the "flesh" and the new Israel of God
Thanks.

Daniel 8:25 `And by his understanding he hath also caused deceit to prosper in his hand, and in his heart he exalts himself, and by ease he destroyeth/corrupts many; and against the Prince [#08269] of Princes [#08269] he standeth--and without hand he ["adversary"] is broken.

Daniel 12:1 `And at that time stand up doth Michael, the great chief/prince [#08269], who is standing up for the sons of thy people, and there hath been a time of distress, such as hath not been since there hath been a Nation till that time, and at that time do thy people escape, every one who is found written in the book.

Matthew 21:43 `Because of this I say to you, that the reign of God shall be taken from you,["adversary"?] and given to a Nation [Kingdom of the Prince of Princes?] bringing forth its fruit;

Reve 12:7 And there came war in the heaven; Michael and his messengers did war against the dragon ["adversary"?], and the dragon did war, and his messengers,

The title "the Prince of princes" applies exclusively to Jehovah God

The Hebrew word sar, translated "prince," is related to a verb meaning "exercise dominion." In addition to referring to the son of a king or a person of royal rank, the word applies to a head, or a chief one. The book of Daniel mentions other angelic princes—for example, Michael. God is the Chief Prince of all such princes. (Daniel 10:13, 21; compare Psalm 83:18.) Can we imagine that anyone could stand up against Jehovah—the Prince of princes?

 

[Quahom1]

The title "the Prince of princes" applies exclusively to Jehovah God

The Hebrew word sar, translated "prince," is related to a verb meaning "exercise dominion." In addition to referring to the son of a king or a person of royal rank, the word applies to a head, or a chief one. The book of Daniel mentions other angelic princes—for example, Michael. God is the Chief Prince of all such princes. (Daniel 10:13, 21; compare Psalm 83:18.) Can we imagine that anyone could stand up against Jehovah—the Prince of princes?

It applies to the King of kings, Jesus, not the Father.

However, if Jehovah is God (the one and only), why would He lower himself to that of a prince? Therefore by your own logic, the Prince of Princes can only be one. Again, by your own logic, a "prince" is not the King, rather possibly "second in command". By your own admittion Michael the Arch is a prince, therefore the "Prince of princes" must be the top dog, second only to the king. Again, this identifies Jesus as the only one capable of fitting the bill.

As I was thinking about this, an old advertisement and musical came to mind..."Gonna wash that man right out of my hair, gonna wash that man right out of my hair (Doris Day if memory serves me correctly)". You seem quite intent on minimizing Jesus, and His role in the nature of things. That is a troublesome thought indeed, Mee. I ask valid points (as is my job), and expect answers.

Since this is the "Christian forum" (where Christ the Son is what it is all about), your insistence on minimizing Jesus' role in our lives leads me to think that perhaps, yours would be better off being posed in the "Alternative" forum.

Are you a Christian, or are you not? Think carefully before you answer. And do not give some series of biblical quotes as an answer. Are you here to promote and discuss Jesus the Christ, or Jehovah the God?

You have an ace in your hand, and it is a Spade. Lay it down, or fold...for the round.

Christian means "Christ centered life", for the individual who identifies themself as such. How do you define yourself?

v/r

Q

 

[InChristAlways]

quote Q to mee: It applies to the King of kings, Jesus, not the Father.

However, if Jehovah is God (the one and only), why would He lower himself to that of a prince? Therefore by your own logic, the Prince of Princes can only be one. Again, by your own logic, a "prince" is not the King, rather possibly "second in command". By your own admittion Michael the Arch is a prince, therefore the "Prince of princes" must be the top dog, second only to the king. Again, this identifies Jesus as the only one capable of fitting the bill.

Daniel 8:25 `And by his understanding he hath also caused deceit to prosper in his hand, and in his heart he exalts himself, and by ease he destroyeth/corrupts many; and against the Prince [#08269] of Princes [#08269] he standeth--and without hand he ["adversary"] is broken.

Daniel 12:1 `And at that time stand up doth Michael, the great [#01419] chief/prince [#08269], who is standing up for the sons of thy people, and there hath been a time of distress, such as hath not been since there hath been a Nation till that time, and at that time do thy people escape, every one who is found written in the book.

Thanks for that post Q. I believe the OC priests were also types of "princes" in the OT. For example, the book of Malachi mainly concerns the Priests it appears?

I am actually trying to determine who this "Mighty King" is representing in Daniel 11, and "he" appears to be different than the "4th King" that arises, who abounds in "Riches" while the Mighty King has an "abundant dominion.

Do you feel these 2 are different as I still feel Daniel 11 happens during and after the time that our Lord Jesus Christ appears.

I believe God Himself raises up this 4th King as an "adversary"?

Daniel 11:1 And I, in year one to Darius["Lord"] the Mede["middle land"] to stand me, to make strong and to protect him. 2 And now truth I shall tell to you. Behold! Yet 3 Kings, ones standing to Persia ["pure] , and the 4th he shall be richer [in] great riches than all. And as to be strenghthend in his riches, he shall arouse/raise up all the Kingdom [#04438] of Javan [Zech 9:13]. 3 And a Very Mighty [#01368] King [#04428] stands up, and he rules [an] exceedingly abundant dominion [#04474], and he does as he pleases. [#01368 used only one time in Daniel]

Not sure of the correct translation of this passage right now.

[Young LT]Isaiah 9:6 For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the government[#04951] is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor [#03289], Mighty [#01368] God, Father of Ages/Eons, Prince [#08269] of Peace. 7 To the increase of the government[#04951], And of peace, there is no end, On the throne of David, and on his kingdom [#04467], To establish it, and to support it, In judgment and in righteousness, Henceforth, even unto the age, The zeal of the Lord of Hosts doth this.

 

[BlaznFattyz]

the prince of princes, king of kings, and lord of lords is jesus christ.

 

[Quahom1]

Thanks for that post Q. I believe the OC priests were also types of "princes" in the OT. For example, the book of Malachi mainly concerns the Priests it appears?

I am actually trying to determine who this "Mighty King" is representing in Daniel 11, and "he" appears to be different than the "4th King" that arises, who abounds in "Riches" while the Mighty King has an "abundant dominion.

Do you feel these 2 are different as I still feel Daniel 11 happens during and after the time that our Lord Jesus Christ appears.

I believe God Himself raises up this 4th King as an "adversary"?

Daniel 11:1 And I, in year one to Darius["Lord"] the Mede["middle land"] to stand me, to make strong and to protect him. 2 And now truth I shall tell to you. Behold! Yet 3 Kings, ones standing to Persia ["pure] , and the 4th he shall be richer [in] great riches than all. And as to be strenghthend in his riches, he shall arouse/raise up all the Kingdom [#04438] of Javan [Zech 9:13]. 3 And a Very Mighty [#01368] King [#04428] stands up, and he rules [an] exceedingly abundant dominion [#04474], and he does as he pleases. [#01368 used only one time in Daniel]

Not sure of the correct translation of this passage right now.

[Young LT]Isaiah 9:6 For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the government[#04951] is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor [#03289], Mighty [#01368] God, Father of Ages/Eons, Prince [#08269] of Peace. 7 To the increase of the government[#04951], And of peace, there is no end, On the throne of David, and on his kingdom [#04467], To establish it, and to support it, In judgment and in righteousness, Henceforth, even unto the age, The zeal of the Lord of Hosts doth this.

Like other prophets in scripture Daniel may be presenting us with a dual message, one being historical and the other being prohetical.

The first part of his message may be referring to the kingdom of Alexandria (hence hellenistic, or Greek). Unlike the other three kindoms, the fourth was of western as opposed to oriental infuence. The ten horns could represent the ten kings of the seleucid dynasty, with the little horn being Antiochus IV Epiphanes (the worst of the kings who supplanted the throne).

The second part of his message may be providing us a view of the future, and referring to the last government of man. The ten horns may represent ten dominions each growing in power on their own, yet not quite combined into one crowned and unified super government. The little horn may represent the last leader (the worst of all of them), that takes total control of that government. The three horns plucked out by the roots (but still functioning), may represent Christian dominions that are removed from the super government by the last leader (though still functioning, the Christianity within those dominions has been corrupted, or because the Christianity cannot be corrupted within those three dominions, they are removed from the super government by the last leader, because they get in his way).

Who the three horns are, is anyone's guess, however these dominions claim to hold fast to their Christianity.

What do you think?

v/r

Q

 

[InChristAlways]

Daniel 8:25 `And by his understanding he hath also caused deceit to prosper in his hand, and in his heart he exalts himself, and by ease he destroyeth/corrupts many; and against the Prince [#08269] of Princes [#08269] he standeth--and without hand he ["adversary"] is broken.

Daniel 12:1 `And at that time stand up doth Michael, the great [#01419] chief/prince [#08269], who is standing up for the sons of thy people, and there hath been a time of distress, such as hath not been since there hath been a Nation till that time, and at that time do thy people escape, every one who is found written in the book.

The ten horns could represent the ten kings of the seleucid dynasty, with the little horn being Antiochus IV Epiphanes (the worst of the kings who supplanted the throne).

Hi Q. One problem I have is that Daniel concerns Israel and the jews. I felt it could be symbolic of the 10 tribes of Israel put away by God in the OT, as they were "without a kingdom" whild Judah symbolically stayed "married" to God. My best guess is that as long as Judah was still "married" to God, He couldn't "marry" Israel. Maybe the jews could explain it better, but they do not believe in the NT or Revelation, so that is difficult to do.

Revelation 17:12 "The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom [#932] as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast.

This guy does a good job of explaining the 2 divided Nations if you are interested:

http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/2houses.htm

[size=+1][size=+1].................."Currently, most Jews (the House of Judah) don't accept Yeshua as the Messiah. Conversely, most Christians (the House of Israel) don't accept the necessity of keeping Torah (the Law). The Israel of God (Gal. 6:16), made up of those from both houses who are standing in the gap, accept both Yeshua and the Torah. But as numerous prophecies show, God will reunite Judah and Ephraim under the Messiah in the land of Israel. Very soon, Jews and Christians will recognize the respective flaws in their belief systems. Both houses of Israel will repent and be joined together, as Ezekiel prophesied. May that glorious day come soon. Baruch HaShem![/size][/size]"

Biblically and Scripturally, I just find it difficult believing Daniel's vision in Dan 10:1/11 would concern Alexander/Antiochus since "Michael" is involved in it in Daniel 12?

The king at the last part of Daniel appears to represent more of an adversary to Micael the Great Prince and His elect, so where would Christ, His crucifixion, ascension, Pentecost and NC and OC [Jeremiah 31] be shown in Daniel 11? What do you think brother?
Blessings.

(Rotherham) Daniel 10:1 In the third year of Cyrus["posses thou the Furnace"], King of Persia["pure/splended"], a thing, was revealed unto Daniel["God is my Judge"], whose name was called Belteshazzar["Lord of the straightened treasure"]; and True was the word/thing, even [concerned] a great Warfare/Host [#06635], and he understood the word/thing, and had understanding in the sight/appearance.

Mark 13:7 "But when you hear of wars [#4171] and rumors of wars, do not be troubled; for [such things] must happen, but the end [is] not yet.

Reve 16: 14 for they are spirits of demons, doing signs--which go forth unto the kings of the earth/land, and of the "inhabitable world", to bring them together to the battle [#4171] of that Great Day of God the Almighty;

Reve 9:3 Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.......... 15 So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind. 16 Now the number of the army of the horsemen [was] two myriads myriads; I heard the number of them.

[size=+2]Daniel 12:1 "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands [watch] over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, [Even] to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book. [/size]

 

[mee]

It applies to the King of kings, Jesus, not the Father.

However, if Jehovah is God (the one and only), why would He lower himself to that of a prince? Therefore by your own logic, the Prince of Princes can only be one. Again, by your own logic, a "prince" is not the King, rather possibly "second in command". By your own admittion Michael the Arch is a prince, therefore the "Prince of princes" must be the top dog, second only to the king. Again, this identifies Jesus as the only one capable of fitting the bill.

As I was thinking about this, an old advertisement and musical came to mind..."Gonna wash that man right out of my hair, gonna wash that man right out of my hair (Doris Day if memory serves me correctly)". You seem quite intent on minimizing Jesus, and His role in the nature of things. That is a troublesome thought indeed, Mee. I ask valid points (as is my job), and expect answers.

Since this is the "Christian forum" (where Christ the Son is what it is all about), your insistence on minimizing Jesus' role in our lives leads me to think that perhaps, yours would be better off being posed in the "Alternative" forum.

Are you a Christian, or are you not? Think carefully before you answer. And do not give some series of biblical quotes as an answer. Are you here to promote and discuss Jesus the Christ, or Jehovah the God?

You have an ace in your hand, and it is a Spade. Lay it down, or fold...for the round.

Christian means "Christ centered life", for the individual who identifies themself as such. How do you define yourself?

v/r

Q

The Anglo-American World Power still holds its position. "But it will be without hand that he will be broken," said the angel Gabriel. (Daniel 8:25) Very soon, this seventh world power of Bible prophecy—this "king fierce in countenance"—will be broken, not by human hands, but by superhuman power at Armageddon. (Daniel 2:44; Revelation 16:14, 16) How thrilling it is to know that the sovereignty of Jehovah God, the Prince of princes, will then be vindicated!

 

[InChristAlways]

Hi Q.
The king at the last part of Daniel appears to represent more of an adversary to Michael the Great Prince and His elect, so where would Christ, His crucifixion, ascension, Pentecost and NC and OC [Jeremiah 31] be shown in Daniel 11? What do you think brother?
Blessings.

Daniel 8:25 `And by his understanding he hath also caused deceit to prosper in his hand, and in his heart he exalts himself, and by ease he destroyeth/corrupts many; and against the Prince [#08269] of Princes [#08269] he standeth--and without hand he ["adversary"] is broken.

Daniel 12:1 `And at that time stand up doth Michael, the great [#01419] chief/prince [#08269], who is standing up for the sons of thy people, and there hath been a time of distress, such as hath not been since there hath been a Nation till that time, and at that time do thy people escape, every one who is found written in the book.

The Anglo-American World Power still holds its position. "But it will be without hand that he will be broken," said the angel Gabriel. (Daniel 8:25) Very soon, this seventh world power of Bible prophecy—this "king fierce in countenance"—will be broken, not by human hands, but by superhuman power at Armageddon. (Daniel 2:44; Revelation 16:14, 16) How thrilling it is to know that the sovereignty of Jehovah God, the Prince of princes, will then be vindicated!

Hi mee. Weren't the Priests/rulers in Judea considered "princes" in the OT? Check out the book of Malachi about the Priests.
Steve

Malachi 4:1 "For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up," Says the LORD of hosts, "That will leave them neither root nor branch.

[size=+2]Isaiah 9:14 Therefore the LORD will cut off head and tail from Israel, Palm branch and bulrush in One Day. 15 The elder and honorable, he [is] the head; The prophet who teaches lies, he [is] the tail. 16 For the leaders of this people cause [them] to err, And [those who are] led by them are destroyed. [/size]

Hosea 5:10 Princes [#08269] of Judah have been as those removing a border, On them I do pour out as water My wrath.

Zephaniah 1:8 "And it shall be, In the day of the LORD's sacrifice [Ezekiel 39/Reve 19/20], That I will punish the princes [#08269]and the king's children, And all such as are clothed with foreign apparel.


Zephaniah 3:3 Her princes [#08269] in her midst [are] roaring lions; Her judges [are] evening wolves That leave not a bone till morning.

Matthew 26:65 Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying, "He has spoken blasphemy! What further need do we have of witnesses? Look, now you have heard His blasphemy!

 

[mee]

Hi mee. Weren't the Priests/rulers in Judea considered "princes" in the OT? Check out the book of Malachi about the Priests.
Steve[size=+2]Isaiah 9:14 Therefore the LORD will cut off head and tail from Israel, Palm branch and bulrush in One Day. 15 The elder and honorable, he [is] the head; The prophet who teaches lies, he [is] the tail. 16 For the leaders of this people cause [them] to err, And [those who are] led by them are destroyed. [/size]

Hosea 5:10 Princes [#08269] of Judah have been as those removing a border, On them I do pour out as water My wrath.

Zephaniah 1:8 "And it shall be, In the day of the LORD's sacrifice [Ezekiel 39/Reve 19/20], That I will punish the princes [#08269]and the king's children, And all such as are clothed with foreign apparel.


Zephaniah 3:3 Her princes [#08269] in her midst [are] roaring lions; Her judges [are] evening wolves That leave not a bone till morning.

Matthew 26:65 Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying, "He has spoken blasphemy! What further need do we have of witnesses? Look, now you have heard His blasphemy!

yes rebellious priests allways have the wrath of God

 

[mee]

The unique book of Daniel contains two very different threads—one is narrative, the other is prophetic. Both aspects of Daniel’s book can build our faith. How? The narrative portions—among the most vivid in the Bible—show us that Jehovah God will bless and care for those who keep their integrity to him.

Seven world powers of special Biblical significance are Egypt, Assyria, Babylonia, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and the Anglo-American dual world power. All of these are noteworthy because they have had dealings with Jehovah’s people

Thankfully, Jehovah does not keep knowledge of future events to himself. Rather, he is the "Revealer of secrets." (Daniel 2:28)

A TINY, defenseless group of people come under vicious attack by a mighty world power. They survive intact and even experience a renewal—not as a result of their own strength but because Jehovah God values them. Daniel chapter 7 foretold these events, which occurred in the early part of the 20th century. Who, though, were these people? The same chapter of Daniel referred to them as "the holy ones of the Supreme One," Jehovah God. It also revealed that these individuals will ultimately be corulers in the Messianic Kingdom!—Daniel 7:13, 14, 18, 21, 22, 25-27

 

[InChristAlways]

Hi mee. Weren't the Priests/rulers in Judea considered "princes" in the OT? Check out the book of Malachi about the Priests.
Steve

Daniel 8:25 `And by his understanding he hath also caused deceit to prosper in his hand, and in his heart he exalts himself, and by ease he destroyeth/corrupts many; and against the Prince [#08269] of Princes [#08269] he standeth--and without hand he ["adversary"] is broken.

Zephaniah 1:8 "And it shall be, In the day of the LORD's sacrifice [Ezekiel 39/Reve 19/20], That I will punish the princes [#08269]and the king's children, And all such as are clothed with foreign apparel.

Zephaniah 3:3 Her princes [#08269] in her midst [are] roaring lions; Her judges [are] evening wolves That leave not a bone till morning.

Matthew 26:65 Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying, "He has spoken blasphemy! What further need do we have of witnesses? Look, now you have heard His blasphemy!

yes rebellious priests allways have the wrath of God

A TINY, defenseless group of people come under vicious attack by a mighty world power. They survive intact and even experience a renewal—not as a result of their own strength but because Jehovah God values them. Daniel chapter 7 foretold these events, which occurred in the early part of the 20th century. Who, though, were these people? The same chapter of Daniel referred to them as "the holy ones of the Supreme One," Jehovah God. It also revealed that these individuals will ultimately be corulers in the Messianic Kingdom!—Daniel 7:13, 14, 18, 21, 22, 25-27

Mee, you do realize that Zech 14 is also the fulfillment of the Olivet Discourse and Daniel 12 and happens in Israel, correct? What event are you talking about in the 20th century and how does that even come close to Daniel 11/12 and Revelation

Zech 14:5 Then shall ye flee to the valley of my mountains, for the valley of the mountains, shall reach, very near, Yea, ye shall flee, just as ye fled from before the earthquake, in the days of Uzziah king of Judah,--Then, shall arrive, Yahweh my God, All thy holy ones, with thee!

[size=+2]Revelation 14:1 And I saw, and lo, a Lamb having stood upon the mount Zion, and with him an hundred forty-four thousands, having the name of his Father written upon their foreheads;[/size][size=+2] [/size]

 

[mee]

Mee, you do realize that Zech 14 is also the fulfillment of the Olivet Discourse and Daniel 12 and happens in Israel, correct? What event are you talking about in the 20th century and how does that even come close to Daniel 11/12 and Revelation

Zech 14:5 Then shall ye flee to the valley of my mountains, for the valley of the mountains, shall reach, very near, Yea, ye shall flee, just as ye fled from before the earthquake, in the days of Uzziah king of Judah,--Then, shall arrive, Yahweh my God, All thy holy ones, with thee!

[size=+2]Revelation 14:1 And I saw, and lo, a Lamb having stood upon the mount Zion, and with him an hundred forty-four thousands, having the name of his Father written upon their foreheads;[/size][size=+2] [/size]

And as for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of [the] end. Many will rove about, and the [true] knowledge will become abundant............. daniel 12;4 and it has

(Daniel 12:9) And he went on to say: "Go, Daniel, because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of [the] end...... we are now in the time of the end and true knowledge has become abuntant