All truths are gods truth

[_Z_]

1. All truths are gods truth.


a. If god is truth then surely all truths belong to him, this isn't just Buddhist, Hindu or Christian truth or any other given set of truths, it is all truths.
b. This must include any given truth spoken by anyone and it doesn't matter if it is spoken by god or man; a truth is a truth. So when we find a scientific or philosophical truth then these too all go into the same pot, they all belong to gods truth, we merely find ways to understand them, we don't actually 'discover' anything!
c. In this universe there are always 'new truths' occurring, there is never a time when all-truth is a whole entity – except perhaps in 'all-time'. However even gods akashik [the place of all knowledge] cannot hold every truth, there is a fundamental universal principle by which 'nothing can be entire', as 'all things belong to all things'. This is for me the beauty and magic of the world; that something new is possible.


Here's some 'truth's' that came to mind whilst thinking on this:


2. God/life gives us the whole cake, not just slices of unrealised perfection! [Z]


All possible ingredients are used to make the cake of life, it is as if it is made baked then unmade with every moment. Life is not cavernous, it strives to reach all possible manifestations leaving no stone unturned as it has to, there is no other way because the universe is a living entity whom performs universal yoga at all times stretching in all directions.


Perhaps there is a problem in seeing god and life at once and as undistinguished? yet i get tired of people blaming god for their and all the worlds ill's. Hell and the devil to me do not exist as entities unto themselves, hell is a 'state' rather than a place and i would not personify or deify this as the devil. We are in hell when we find ourselves immersed in the negative and extreme ingredients of the cake then cannot fight it, in mirroring life we all have our own lesser natures and some become them – this is not gods fault he simply provides us with the cake. What else can he do if not to constrain us in a cavern with no exit!


To find truth and god is to find yourself, or to prove god exists is the same as to prove you exist. [Z]



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[Dondi]

1. All truths are gods truth.


a. If god is truth then surely all truths belong to him, this isn't just Buddhist, Hindu or Christian truth or any other given set of truths, it is all truths.
b. This must include any given truth spoken by anyone and it doesn't matter if it is spoken by god or man; a truth is a truth. So when we find a scientific or philosophical truth then these too all go into the same pot, they all belong to gods truth, we merely find ways to understand them, we don't actually 'discover' anything!
c. In this universe there are always 'new truths' occurring, there is never a time when all-truth is a whole entity – except perhaps in 'all-time'. However even gods akashik [the place of all knowledge] cannot hold every truth, there is a fundamental universal principle by which 'nothing can be entire', as 'all things belong to all things'. This is for me the beauty and magic of the world; that something new is possible.

What if one "truth" contradicts another "truth". Which one is true?

Christians would claim that Salvation is through the belief in Christ, who as the Son of God came to die for our sins and rose from the grave.

Muslims would deny the above and say that there is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is His Prophet. Jesus was merely another prophet of Allah, but has no salvitic properties in himself.

Let's suppose, for the sake of arguement, that these are the only two religions of the world. Which one should we subscribe to? We are actually in a Catch-22. If we believe in Christ alone for salvation, then in the Muslims eyes, we are condemned for believing in a false God and not believing in the last Prophet and the Quran. If we believe in Allah and His Prophet, Muhammed, in the Chrsitian's eyes, we are lost for we do not have Christ as Savior.

One of them has to be wrong. Or perhaps they are both wrong. But they cannot both be right.

What is one to do? One who approaches the problem objectively will find it very difficult to choose. For it would be a choice that would have eternal consequences should he choose wrong.

Perhaps there is a problem in seeing god and life at once and as undistinguished? yet i get tired of people blaming god for their and all the worlds ill's. Hell and the devil to me do not exist as entities unto themselves, hell is a 'state' rather than a place and i would not personify or deify this as the devil. We are in hell when we find ourselves immersed in the negative and extreme ingredients of the cake then cannot fight it, in mirroring life we all have our own lesser natures and some become them – this is not gods fault he simply provides us with the cake. What else can he do if not to constrain us in a cavern with no exit!


To find truth and god is to find yourself, or to prove god exists is the same as to prove you exist. [Z]

But, see, now here, you've just stated your opinion about Hell and the Devil. Yet how do you know what you've asserted is true. How do you know for sure there is no literal Hell and a real Devil?

Maybe it is true in your own opinion. But it is not true for those who hold to idea that Hell is a hot place and the Devil will keep the wicked company throughout eternity.

One of you is wrong. Or maybe you're both wrong. But you cannot both be right.

 

[Thomas]

a. If god is truth then surely all truths belong to him, this isn't just Buddhist, Hindu or Christian truth or any other given set of truths, it is all truths.
Yes, with the provision of below:

b. This must include any given truth spoken by anyone and it doesn't matter if it is spoken by god or man; a truth is a truth...
Truths spoken by man derive from observation and the operation of his reasoning capacity.
Truths spoken by God, that is truths communicated by God to man, which comprise Revelation, transcend the human intellect ... so truth is truth, but there is a hierarchy of truth.

Thomas

 

[wil]

Let's suppose, for the sake of arguement, that these are the only two religions of the world. Which one should we subscribe to? We are actually in a Catch-22. If we believe in Christ alone for salvation, then in the Muslims eyes, we are condemned for believing in a false God and not believing in the last Prophet and the Quran. If we believe in Allah and His Prophet, Muhammed, in the Chrsitian's eyes, we are lost for we do not have Christ as Savior.

One of them has to be wrong. Or perhaps they are both wrong. But they cannot both be right.

Is this true? In February are the hottest days says the South African. No in the winter it is cold, says Canadian, you are wrong...no you are wrong....

Man cannot fly, G-d parted the waters and put one above us..., going to the moon is impossible....G-d put a light in the night sky...

All of it appears to be conjecture, perspective based on current understandings, our society...

Why do we think G-d couldn't have talked to Buddha, Mohamed, Moses, Lao Tzu, Ezekial, Jesus? Why couldn't they all be right at their level of understanding, for the people they spoke to, for the people that thier words and thoughts speak to today?

Lemme see we are going to give you a football, tell you how to score and see how many matches it takes before you learn that it isn't winning, but how you play the game that counts. And if you play the game correctly...you get to win, and you get to learn from your 'losses'.

In this game on this site, we are even givin a garden where anyone is allowed to scream from the roof tops they are right and everyone else is wrong. I win. How nice.

Outside those walls we need to learn to play the game.

 

[flowperson]

OTOH..there are those, me included, that believe that life is not a game or collection of games ( a digital existence ?)...rather a collection of stories, each one unique in its own right because of free will and individual choice. That seems to be the direction of the Bible and other sacred writings. Or, as I identify it to be...an analog existence.

The real question ought to be, IMO, is the one becoming the other...and how did such a transformaton take place...or is it still going on and accelerating ? Are we all caught squarely in the middle of this transition and unable, much of the time, to self-determine whether we are playing games, or creating stories through our self-directed behaviors and resulting stories ? Or as I like to put the question...is the past mostly stories and the future mostly games? It surely seems more and more that way to me, and I'm not really happy with the whole situation.

Mayhaps that's why life seems to have begun in the oceans on earth...where there are no walls.

flow....

 

[Dondi]

I'd like to believe that one day these walls will come crashing down. If God put everyone in their respective habitation, as the Apostle Paul says in Acts 17, then perhaps whatever religion we are born into, or acquired, is a test to see if we would be faithful for what knowledge has been afforded to us. Maybe the religion isn't as important as one's faithfulness in to. Maybe it's up to the Christian to follow Christianity in the best light they have, the Muslim to follow Islam, the Buddhist to follow Buddha's teachings, the Jew the Torah, even the athiest the Humanist Manifesto etc.

All in all, it would come down to following the simple principle of loving thy neighbor.

At least, if I were God, I'd judge thus.

 

[wil]

... Maybe it's up to the Christian to follow Christianity in the best light they have, the Muslim to follow Islam, the Buddhist to follow Buddha's teachings, the Jew the Torah, even the athiest the Humanist Manifesto etc.

All in all, it would come down to following the simple principle of loving thy neighbor.

At least, if I were God, I'd judge thus.

There goes wil dancin' 'round the room.

Chantin peace and love in various languages....

 

[Dondi]

There goes wil dancin' 'round the room.

Chantin peace and love in various languages....

I hope we all have dance cards.

 

[_Z_]

Hi dondi,

What if one "truth" contradicts another "truth". Which one is true?

Excellent point! My first thoughts are; can you have truth's that contradict one another, or are those supposed truths actually a part of a greater truth. Take relativity and quantum mechanics as an example of two truths that contradict one another, i am sure that the day will come when a greater truth is known that will dispel the contradictions as has happened in other areas of science.​

With religion we may ask how can say the truth of the god anubis be the same as truths said by god, well Anubis teaches all about the balance of maat which is a divine truth. It doesn't matter if this truth is spoken by any given deity or a mere mortal.​

Thirdly i find that apparently contradicting truths are true of themselves and belong to different fields. In reality truth's do not contradict themselves, it is only when we extrapolate them and put them together that they appear to contradict one another.​

Christians would claim that Salvation is through the belief in Christ, who as the Son of God came to die for our sins and rose from the grave.

I would say that this is a presumed truth as in we presume that is what he meant, there are millions of planets out there where i am sure people find their heaven without Christ. So we may ask ourselves what Jesus did mean; in context to the time and nature of religion at the time, then i believe he is saying that he has found a higher explanation of divinity and that one may not find it except by understanding his truth, like you cannot understand relativity without understanding Einstein's truth! He believed in a god of love that is quite different from the other monotheists such as the Hebrews and akhenten. Thus it follows that one may only know god as Jesus understood him by knowing his work and believing it to be so. This does not mean that there are not other truths of god.​

Muslims would deny the above and say that there is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is His Prophet. Jesus was merely another prophet of Allah, but has no salvitic properties in himself.

Again they presume to be the only holders of truth in the universe. Perhaps the truth is that both Jesus, Mohamed and any other speaker of truths all have truths. If they say that they are the only truth then they are incorrect. The truth should be looked at beyond emotion and belief i.e. It should be looked at directly at what is being said rather than that which is being spoken.​

In short they are both right and wrong according to context.​

But, see, now here, you've just stated your opinion about Hell and the Devil. Yet how do you know what you've asserted is true. How do you know for sure there is no literal Hell and a real Devil?

I could be wrong! Although i don't think so, that particular aspect of the post is indeed an opinion. although i cannot find hell in all the natures of reality, hell and evil seam to be a by-product of base reality without any actual existence of themselves. When we look at the universe we cannot find hell can we!​

the Devil will keep the wicked company throughout eternity

evil cannot be eternal! Punishments are finite and may also not be eternal! This is not opinion but the understanding of limited and unlimited natures comparatively. An eternal being may only be good due to nature, all of our lesser natures belong to the limited natures of existence, thus hell is thence a state of being limited and the true nature of 'you' is not.​

Thomas, flowperson and will, hi....
More in a couple of hours – my kids nicked my computer damn them! ​

.​

 

[iBrian]

Excellent point! My first thoughts are; can you have truth's that contradict one another, or are those supposed truths actually a part of a greater truth.

That's a very good point - often "Truth" is referenced as if some kind of external objective standard, divorced from the present experience.

All "truths" as "partial truth" comprising a greater "whole truth" is a very nice way of addressing this indeed.

As Bill Hicks said, "We are all the universe experiencing itself subjectively..."

 

[_Z_]

Thomas, hi

Truths spoken by man derive from observation and the operation of his reasoning capacity.

Truths spoken by God, that is truths communicated by God to man, which comprise Revelation, transcend the human intellect ... so truth is truth, but there is a hierarchy of truth.

If a given item of information can be transmitted from entity 'X' to entity 'Y' without loss, then the truth of Y is the same as that of X. in other words if what comes out of a mans mouth is the same in meaning as that from god then there is no difference nor hierarchy of truth. We could say that gods knows a truth beyond human understanding – although i would contest that the real 'you' is capable of godly understanding – yet once revealed then it is the same as human or worldly truth.


Hi wil,

Why do we think G-d couldn't have talked to Buddha, Mohamed, Moses, Lao Tzu, Ezekial, Jesus? Why couldn't they all be right at their level of understanding, for the people they spoke to, for the people that their words and thoughts speak to today?

Exactly!

you get to win, and you get to learn from your 'losses'.

Yes, you find a realised slice of the cake, ha yes there is no winning in life, as everything would have to come to an end for there to be a fully realised and complete truth.


Flowperson, hi


stories and games are not that dissimilar! If you have self determination, then all entities with this potential also has self determination, which is why we and our environments are equally willed, and flow together.


I,brian, hi

often "Truth" is referenced as if some kind of external objective standard, divorced from the present experience.

Yes, perhaps we often forget the very most real and obvious truth of us! The very 'you' is our primary reality, i think the soul is its body in the afterlife, as we often talk of the soul as something extraneous to what we are, in the same way as we do truth. Yet if the soul or spirit is 'over there' and another self then it is not 'you'.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------


These just popped into my mind...


'One truth cannot deny another'
because...
'the element of conflict within a said truth that would deny a given other, is the very element of its falsehood'.


'All truths are there'
no truth is found that is not already 'there'. Even when a new event arises and new truths are arrived at, they are found to have been there.


.​

 

[Thomas]

Hi Z -

If a given item of information can be transmitted from entity 'X' to entity 'Y' without loss, then the truth of Y is the same as that of X. in other words if what comes out of a mans mouth is the same in meaning as that from god then there is no difference nor hierarchy of truth.

But I very much doubt that truth is communicated like that. Just because someone hears something, and repeats it, is no guarantee they understandd it. Everyone bought 'A Brief History of Time' but I bet they can't explain it.

We could say that gods knows a truth beyond human understanding – although I would contest that the real 'you' is capable of godly understanding – yet once revealed then it is the same as human or worldly truth.

I don't think so. I think there's a danger of assuming that what we understand is all there is to know, or can be known ... again I think this is a reductionist argument.

I think all truth is God's truth, I don't think all men grasps it equally, however.

Thomas

 

[_Z_]

Just because someone hears something, and repeats it, is no guarantee they understand it

true yes, yet the information remains the same via any given vehicle! Irrespective of weather or not it is understood.

I think there's a danger of assuming that what we understand is all there is to know, or can be known

i would only say that we can understand anything potentially and that somewhere inside our souls we know truth. This doesn't mean that we can know all-truth, as a state of all-truth cannot arise unless all things are brought to an end and there is completion. I don't think this ever happens as you would ultimately have to remove absolutely everything.

​

 

[Thomas]

Thomas said:
Just because someone hears something, and repeats it, is no guarantee they understand it

Z said:
true yes, yet the information remains the same via any given vehicle! Irrespective of weather or not it is understood.

Reply:
But whether or not it is understood is what matters, because one man will misunderstand it and say it is not true ... truth is not the issue here, it's mans' fallibility.

So we're back to hierarchy again - God is All Truth, man knows some truth, some men know more truth than other men ... some men make more of the little they know ... some men know lots and make nothing of it ...

Thomas

 

[Dondi]

Thomas said:
Just because someone hears something, and repeats it, is no guarantee they understand it

Z said:
true yes, yet the information remains the same via any given vehicle! Irrespective of weather or not it is understood.

Reply:
But whether or not it is understood is what matters, because one man will misunderstand it and say it is not true ... truth is not the issue here, it's mans' fallibility.

So we're back to hierarchy again - God is All Truth, man knows some truth, some men know more truth than other men ... some men make more of the little they know ... some men know lots and make nothing of it ...

Thomas

Do you think the saying, "To much is given, much will be required" comes into play here?

 

[_Z_]

God is All Truth, man knows some truth


ah i see what you mean about mans fallibility. But if someone does know a truth even a simple truth then it is equally true as when god knows it.
e.g.​

seek and yee shall find [christian]
or
seek it and you cannot find it [buddhist]

both are true in their own context, the christian truth is that if you look in the new testament you will find the truth according to jesus. The buddhist truth is that e.g. Say you lost an item, then you keep looking for it, the more you look then the more it seams to evade you, then if you stop looking altogether it suddenly becomes apparent. Both then are gods truth!


what makes god-truths true and other truths untrue – if there are other truths?
Nothing. What we could say is that if something is true, then it is part of 'the truth' which is a premise i am coming from. In the end we either have no truth [which is absurd, as all of existence would be a lie and it is clearly not, at least in being apparent and real by simply being there even if it is a 'true illusion'] or the truth, [at least ultimately] as if we only have splintered and scattered truths then they have no overall basis upon which to call themselves truth.


All truth is completely different to all truths
to have all truth then surely there must be completion and the results of thing be found. Thence we would need an absolute end to all things which i think is impossible, indeed in this sense gods lifespan itself would need to come to an end for its truth to be known yet he is immortal and never ends?
To know all truth of existence god would have to know the result of all future events – but what if there is no end! We may assume that there could be an end to the universe yet eternity and all its natures would remain. So god can know all truths but not all truth – a subtle difference, but an important one i feel.


Forgive me if you feel i am insulting your religion as i assure you i am not nor have ever purposefully meant to, i am a seer and i make observations that ask questions or answer them 'tis all.


Thank you... _Z_

​

 

[Dondi]

I can agree that some truth can be found in most every religions and that the Truth has been shattered into a million pieces and that some pieces reflect more truth that others, but that also the refractions of pieces tend to distort certain truths (through a glass darkly).

The task in our journey is to fit the pieces back together as best as we can, with what pieces we do find, and formulate the Truth as best as we can understand it.

 

[_Z_]

Dondi,


do you believe in 'truth' then? In my journey i find truths [in the context stated in my last post] but i find that truth itself is like the stilled wind, as soon as there is movement then it becomes part of the world of partiality where there is no actual truth only philosophical truths and falseness all blended in the winds. This is where people like Jesus and the Buddha are most beneficial in that they can find a place of stillness in their mind and see through the glass more clearly, so as thomas said; it is a matter of translation. More than that, many people have moments of clarity it is what we all seek is it not, and in those moments it is as if we are linked to a stream of conciousness that helps to bring us to a given truth.


So there seams to be a guider out there, perhaps some are more closely linked than others yet surely the god of love would give wisdoms freely!!!!


it may be so that people like Jesus are an extension of this.

.

 

[Dondi]

I believe there is one actual Truth.

As I said, we see through the glass darkly. But I think that Truth in our own understanding can become clearer as we journey to seek It. There are paths that allow the Truth to get lighter and their are paths that make the Truth darker. The question is therefore one of discernment. How to know which path to follow?

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Z,

interesting thread.

i would, naturally, disagree

by the by.. you have mischaracterized my traditions teachings.. we don't teach "seek and it cannot be found" per se, the "it" is something very specific and it could be "god" or "soul" or "beginning". that said, we also teach "seek and you shall find" with regards to the Truth of the Dharma and the Truth of Liberation.

metta,

~v