There is no proof of God …

… therefore God does not exist.

This statement fails on two points of logic.

The first is that of an Argument from Ignorance.
This is when we illegitimately appeal to ignorance to support a conclusion. It usually takes the following form:
“No one has proven not A, therefore A is true,” or
“No one has proven A, so A is false.”

The fallacy is mistakenly believing something must be false because it has not been proven true, or that something must be true because it has not been proven false.

A secondary flaw is the fallacy of misplacing the burden of proof
Arises when someone is misled into thinking they have to prove a claim (eg that God exists), when their opponent should be proving his claim (that God does not).

The point here is who is making the claim? The claimant, be they theist or atheist, in making a claim, shoulders the burden of proof for their claim.

For example, the person making a positive assertion usually has the burden of proof (e.g. the theist who asserts God’s existence). Once the theist presents an argument for God’s existence, the burden of proof is now on the atheist who denies God’s existence. Once the atheist shows what is wrong with the argument or presents a new argument against God’s existence, some or all of the burden shifts back to the theist. And so it continues.
(From the Lucid Philosophy website)

Further discussion of the Burden of Proof here

 

Thomas Jan 25, 2024

Visit thread: https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/21002/

 

Universalism

Although I am a non-theistic Buddhist, I have become quite an expert on Christian Universalism (technical word apokatastasis) this being the teaching that eventually all will be saved and all things will be reconciled “in Christ”. Beware of experts? Yes, well, as I say, I’m a bit of an expert…….

My expertise (!) has developed in part from my interest in Interfaith dialogue, an interest now on the wane as most Christians I tend to engage with on various forums have just one starting point i.e. There can be no dialogue between truth (theirs) and error (i.e. anything else) So debate and discussion tends to stall at the first hurdle.

Anyway, I tend to ramble and waffle, finding that expressing myself therapeutic. I’m not really seeking to advance the Universalist cause, more at the moment to say what I find problematic about it. This derives from the old comedy show of the late great Spike Milligan, Q6. Many of his sketches ended with some sort of punch line and then dear old Spike would stand ramrod stiff in the middle of the room and start muttering “What do we do now, what do we do now?”

So Universalism. All are saved, all things are reconciled. But what do we do then? It’s a very good question, and our questions can hold greater gold than many an “answer”, at least I think so.

In my own rather stumbling Pure Land Buddhist way of “no-calculation” the “journey itself is home”, as the Japanese poet Basho has said. There is no final destination. The road goes on forever. And one of my mentors in zen, Dogen, speaks of the present moment being the only moment, “yet there is a movement toward Buddha”, an ever opening intimacy with Reality.

Another aspect is the guy (I can’t remember who) who said that he would rather constantly pursue Truth rather than actually find it or have it “revealed” to him. What do you do with it when you have found it? Could any final “truth” even be of words?

Well, that’s it. A bit on name dropping. But I’m basically harmless.

Thank you if you have read this far.

 

 

CircleoftheWay 18/01/2024

Visit Thread: https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/20988/#post-387910

 

The One in Different Religions

From :
https://universalalphaomega.blogspot.com/2024/01/the-one-in-different-religions.html

Taoism
Ultimate One the Heavenly Savior (太乙救苦天尊)
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Ultimate One the Heavenly Savior (太乙救苦天尊) is a divine manifestation of the Uncreated energy of The One (先天一炁), a.k.a. Ultimate One (太一). According to Taoist Scriptures, He comes from the Eastern World of Everlasting Bliss (東方長樂世界), riding a nine-headed lion. He has countless manifestations and incarnations in all worlds.Master Loy’s Spring and Autumn Annals (呂氏春秋.大樂) says :

Tao is the ultimate essence, which is formless and nameless. To name it artificially, it can be called Ultimate One.
(道也者,至精也,不可為形,不可為名,強為之,謂之太一。)​

The Ultimate One generates Water (太一生水) says :

Heaven and earth are created by Ultimate One. (天地者,太一之所生也。)​

The Wondrous Scripture on Ultimate One’s Salvation and Protection (太一救苦護身妙經) says :

In the Eastern World of Everlasting Bliss, there is a greatly merciful and benevolent one called Ultimate One the Heavenly Savior. He has countless manifestations and incarnations, such as heavenly deities, emperors, kings, saints, spirits, people of various careers, etc., residing in all realms including heavens, human worlds, and hells. He has infinite holy power and innumerable merits. He saves the sufferings and responds to prayers, as long as living beings seek His help.(此東方長樂世界,有大慈仁者,太一救苦天尊,化身如恒沙數,物隨聲應,或住天宮,或降人間,或居地獄,或攝群邪,或為仙童玉女,或為帝君聖人,或為天尊真人,或為金剛神王,或為魔王力士,或為天師道士,或為皇人老君,或為天醫功曹,或為男子女子,或為文武官宰,或為都大元帥,或為教師,或為風師雨師,神通無量,功行無窮,尋聲救苦,應物隨機,今告汝知。)​

Additionally, in The Wondrous Scripture on Ultimate One’s Salvation and Protection (太一救苦護身妙經), the origin of Ultimate One the Heavenly Savior is told by the following verses :

The primordial energy of The Origin.​
A wondrous manifestation of the Essence of Nine Yeong.​
His mightiness and merits are omnipresent.​
He comes and reveals the Truth in a miraculous trance.
(元元之祖氣,妙化九陽精。威德布十方,恍恍現其真。)​

The Scripture of Way and Virtue (道德經) says :

There is a thing that is complete as it always be. It exists before the creation of heaven and earth.​
Being quiescent and formless, it is self-existent and never changes. It circulates everywhere and never stops.​
It is the mother of heaven and earth. I do not know its name, but call it Tao.
(有物混成,先天地生。寂兮寥兮,獨立而不改,周行而不殆,可以為天地母。 吾不知其名,強字之日道。)​

Song for Dispelling Doubts Concerning the Correct Path (破迷正道歌) says :

The energy of The One circulates unimpededly. It exists within all things including human bodies.
(一炁循環無阻礙,散在萬物與人身。)​

Ultimate One the Heavenly Savior is also known as Ultimate One the Eastern Emperor (東皇太一). East, the direction that Ultimate One comes from, symbolizes the first state of the process towards Perfection.

As it is written in Explanation for the GWAs (说卦) in The Scripture of Changes (易經) :

God starts out from Tzan (the eastern Gwa).​
When He reaches Seon (the southeast Gwa), all things that He created are present.​
When He arrives at Ley (the southern Gwa), His creations become visible.​
When He reaches Kwan (the southwest Gwa), His creations are nourished and in labor.​
When He arrives at Deoy (the western Gwa), His creations speak His Words.​
When He reaches Kin (the northwest Gwa), the War happens.​
When He arrives at Ham (the northern Gwa), His creations reach the destination where all their works are gathered and accepted.​
When He reaches Gan (the northeast Gwa), His creations, which are manifestations of His Words, achieve Perfection.
(帝出乎震,齊乎巽,相見乎離,致役乎坤,說言乎兌,戰乎乾,勞乎坎,成言乎艮。)
Buddhism
Prajna-Paramita, the Mother of all Buddhas (般若佛母)
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Four-Armed Prajna-Paramita
Six-Armed Prajna-Paramita
Prajna-Paramita, a.k.a. Prajna Bodhisattva (般若菩薩), is a divine manifestation of the Wisdom (Prajna) of all Buddhas.As it is written in The Eight Thousand Lines Prajna-Paramita 108 Names Dharani Sutra (聖八千頌般若波羅蜜多一百八名真實圓義陀羅尼經) :

Homage to the most exalted one, Prajna-Paramita the Mother of all Buddhas.​
Buddhas of the past, present and future, are all born from Her.​
With the ability of giving birth to all Buddhas, She is called Mother of Buddhas.​

The Eight Thousand Lines Prajna-Paramita 108 Names Dharani Sutra (聖八千頌般若波羅蜜多一百八名真實圓義陀羅尼經) also says:

Prajna-Paramita has 108 names, which are :​
1. Prajna-Paramita the most exalted one.​
2. Universal Wisdom.​
3. Wisdom of all manifestations.​
4. Reality.​
5. True Thusness.​
6. Indestructible True Thusness​
…….​
11. One who is formless like emptiness, and is free from wishes​
…….​
15. Dharma nature.16. Dharma Realm​
…….​
36. Mother of all Buddhas.​
37. One who gives birth to all Boshisattvas.​
38. One who gives birth to all voice-hearers and cause-awakened ones.​
39. One who nourishes and maintains all worlds.​
40. One who has infinite merits and blessings​
…….​
100. Originally Motionless One​
…….​

According to these names, Prajna-Paramita is the Universal Wisdom, She is the same as True Thusness, Reality, and Dharma Realm. She is formless, invisible, intangible, but also indestructible. She nourishes and gives blessings to all worlds and living beings.

The Nation-Protecting Prajna-Paramita Sutra Spoken for the Benevolent King (仁王護國般若波羅蜜多經) says:

Prajna-Paramita is the Mother of all Buddhas and Bodhisattvas, and is the source of unique merits and divine power.​

Vajra Cutter Prajna-Paramita Sutra (能斷金剛般若波羅蜜多經) says :

All saints, sages, and living beings are manifestations of the Motionless One.(諸賢聖補特伽羅皆是無為之所顯)​

In an English translation of Asta-Sahasrika Prajna-Paramita Sutra (Eight Thousand Lines Prajna-Paramita Sutra), the nature of Mother Prajna-Paramita is described as follows :

SARIPUTRA: The Perfection of Wisdom shines forth as a sublime light, 0 Buddha nature. I sing this spontaneous hymn of light to praise Mother Prajnaparamita. She is worthy of infinite praise. She is utterly unstained, because nothing in this insubstantial world can possibly stain her. She is an ever-flowing fountain of incomparable light, and from every conscious being on every plane, she removes the faintest trace of illusory darkness. She leads living beings into her clear light from the blindness and obscurity caused by moral and spiritual impurity as well as by partial or distorted views of Reality. In her alone can we find true refuge. Sublime and excellent are her revelations through all persons of wisdom. She inspires and guides us to seek the safety and certainty of the bright wings of enlightenment. She pours forth her nectar of healing light to those who have made themselves appear blind. She provides the illumination through which all fear and despair can be utterly renounced.​
She manifests the five mystic eyes of wisdom, the vision and penetration of each one more exalted than the last. She clearly and constantly points out the path of wisdom to every conscious being with the direct pointing that is her transmission and empowerment. She is an infinite eye of wisdom. She dissipates entirely the mental gloom of delusion. She does not manipulate any structures of relativity. Simply by shining spontaneously, she guides to the spiritual path whatever beings have wandered into dangerous, negative, self-centered ways.​
……​
She is the universal benefactress who presents, as a sublime offering to truth, the limitless jewel of all Buddha qualities, the miraculous gem which generates the ten inconceivable powers of a Buddha to elevate living beings into consciousness of their innate Buddha nature. She can never be defeated in any way, on any level. She lovingly protects vulnerable conscious beings who cannot protect themselves, gradually generating in them unshakable fearlessness and diamond confidence. She is the perfect antidote to the poisonous view which affirms the cycle of birth and death to be a substantial reality. She is the clear knowledge of the open and transparent mode of being shared by all relative structures and events. Her transcendent knowing never wavers. She is the Perfect Wisdom who gives birthless birth to all Buddhas. And through these sublimely Awakened Ones, it is Mother Prajnaparamita alone who turns the wheel of true teaching.
LORD BUDDHA: Precisely so, beloved Sariputra.​
Manjusri Bodhisattva
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Manjusri holding the Sword of Wisdom and a Prajna-paramita Sutra, riding a lion
Manjusri wielding the Sword of Wisdom, holding a Prajna-paramita Sutra, and riding a lion
Manjusri Bodhisattva represents Prajna, the Wisdom of all Buddhas, hence he is honored as the Mother of all Buddhas of the past, present and future (三世佛母妙吉祥).As it is written in Mahayana Sutra on Contemplating the Ground-Like Heart Concerning the Legend of the Buddha (大乘本生心地觀經) :

Manjusri the Great Holy Lord​
is the Mother of all Buddhas of the past, present and future.​
All Buddhas of the ten directions,​
when they first arouse their hearts to seek Bodhi,​
they do so because of Manjusri’s teaching and guidance.​
(文殊師利大聖尊,三世諸佛以為母,十方如來初發心,皆是文殊教化力。)​

Mahayana Sutra on Contemplating the Ground-Like Heart Concerning the Legend of the Buddha (大乘本生心地觀經) also says :

The Buddha said to Manjusri: “You are indeed the Mother of all Buddhas of the past, presemt and future. All Tathagatas, when they first arouse their hearts, or carry out their practice for Bodhi, they do those things because of your guidance. “​

Placing the Bowl Sutra (佛說放鉢經) says :

The Buddha said : “… I achieved Buddhahood all because of Manjusri’s benevolence. Furthermore, all the countless Buddhas in the past were disciples of Manjusri, and all those who will become Buddhas in the future, they will achieve Buddhahood because of Manjusri’s mightiness, benevolence, and divine power.”​

Manjusri Bodhisattva is also called Manjusri the Youth (Manjusri Kumara-bhuta), hinting that he has two important attributes : Wisdom and Eternal Youth.

Mañju” in Sanskrit menas lovely, beautiful, charming, sweet, pleasing, attractive, etc., denoting the eternal youth and beauty of the Bodhisattva, while “śrī” is used as an honorific meaning resplendence, wealth and prosperity. Therefore the name Mañjuśrī is literally translated into Chinese as 妙吉祥, which means Youthful Beauty and Blessing.

As it is written in Holy Motionless Lord the Great Wrathful King’s Secret Dharani Sutra (聖無動尊大威怒王秘密陀羅尼経) :

Youthful Beauty and Blessing Bodhisattva is the Mother who Awakens living beings in the past, present and future, therefore the Bodhisattva is named Manjusri.​

Similar to Ultimate One the Heavenly Savior in Taoism, Manjusri Bodhisattva also rides a lion, and comes from the east.

As it is written in Buddha-Avatamsaka nama Maha-Vaipulya Sutra (大方廣佛華嚴經) :

To the east, passing worlds as many as atoms in ten Buddha-Worlds, there was a world named Golden Color, the Buddha there was named Unwavering Wisdom. In that world, a Bodhisattva named Manjusri, together with other Bodhisattvas as many as atoms in ten Buddha-Worlds, came to visit the Buddha of this world.​

East, is the direction associated with Arousing the Bodhi-Heart, the first stage of Mahayana practice.

In regular sense, Arousing the Bodhi-Heart can be alternatively translated as Bringing forth the Bodhi mindSetting the resolve upon Awakening, etc., referring to the first stage of regular Mahayana practice.

In the superior or Vajrayana sense, Arousing the Bodhi-Heart actually means Illuminating the Heart to Reveal the Path to Bodhi, referring to the first stage of True Bodhisattva practice.

In both senses, Arousing the Bodhi-Heart is the first stage of cultivation, and is associated with the East direction, as well as the Eastern petal of the Eight-Petaled Lotus Flower.

 

Christianity
Wisdom (Sophia), the Primordial Truth of the Universe
Sophia.jpg
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Wisdom (Sophia)
Σοφία the Divine Wisdom
A feminine personification of Wisdom, or Understanding, is found in Proverbs, a Book of the Bible. Here are excerpts from the King James Version :

1:20 Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:​
1:21 She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying,​
1:22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?​
1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you​
…….​
8:1 Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?​
8:2 She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths. (also translated as “at the meeting of the roads“[BBE] or “at the crossroads“[NAB].)​
8:3 She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.
8:4 Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.
8:5 O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.​
8:6 Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.​
8:7 For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.​
8:8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.​
8:9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.​
8:10 Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.​
8:11 For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.​
8:12 I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.​
8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.​
8:14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.​
8:15 By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.​
8:16 By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.​
8:17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.​
8:18 Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.​
8:19 My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.​
8:20 I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:​
8:21 That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.​
8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
8:24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.​
8:25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:​
8:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.​
8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:​
8:28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:​
8:29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:​
8:30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;​
8:31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.​
8:32 Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.
8:33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.​
8:34 Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.
8:35 For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD.​
8:36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.
9:1 Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars:​
9:2 She hath killed her beasts; she hath mingled her wine; she hath also furnished her table.​
9:3 She hath sent forth her maidens: she crieth upon the highest places of the city,
9:4 Whoso is simple, let him turn in hither: as for him that wanteth understanding, she saith to him,​
9:5 Come, eat of my bread, and drink of the wine which I have mingled.
9:6 Forsake the foolish, and live; and go in the way of understanding.
9:7 He that reproveth a scorner getteth to himself shame: and he that rebuketh a wicked man getteth himself a blot.​
9:8 Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.​
9:9 Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning.​
9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.​
9:11 For by me thy days shall be multiplied, and the years of thy life shall be increased.
9:12 If thou be wise, thou shalt be wise for thyself: but if thou scornest, thou alone shalt bear it.​
9:13 A foolish woman is clamorous: she is simple, and knoweth nothing.​
9:14 For she sitteth at the door of her house, on a seat in the high places of the city,​
9:15 To call passengers who go right on their ways:​
9:16 Whoso is simple, let him turn in hither: and as for him that wanteth understanding, she saith to him,​
9:17 Stolen waters are sweet, and bread eaten in secret is pleasant.​
9:18 But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell.​

According to the above text, this Wisdom (Sophia) exists before the creation of heaven and earth. She is used by God to create everything in the universe, hence She is the Ultimate Truth within all manifestations of the universe. She is the wisdom, and also life, of all living beings. She leads living beings to Perfection by giving them Her bread and wine. Whoever eats Her bread and drinks Her wine will become wiser and live longer.

Iamblichus (242?-325?)

From his Exhortation to Philosophy translated by Thomas M. Johnson an American Platonist of 19th century.

Of Pythagoras and the life in accordance with his doctrines, and of the Pythagoreans, we treated sufficiently in our first book* we will now explain the remaining part of his system, beginning with the common preparatory training prescribed by his school in reference to all education and learning and virtue; a training which is not partial, only perfecting one in some particular good of all these but which, to speak simply, incites his cognitive powers to the acquirement of all disciplines, all sciences, all beautiful and noble actions in life, all species of culture – and, in a phrase, every thing which participates of the Beautiful. For neither without an awakening, caused by exhortation, from the natural lethargy, is it possible for one to apply himself suddenly to beautiful and noble studies; nor immediately to proceed to the apprehension of the highest and most perfect good, before his soul has been duly prepared by exhortation [which arouses his impulses to higher things, purifies his thoughts, and directs his actions].

* Iamblichus is referring to his Life of Pythagoras, to be found in the Prometheus Trust’s Iamblichus on the Mysteries and Life of Pythagoras, TTS vol. XVII.

From The Collected Works of Thomas Moore Johnson, Prometheus Trust 2015.

 

Nicholas Weeks 11/01/2024 

Visit Thread: https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/20977/

 

The Myth of Progress

Drawn from from Seven Types of Atheism by John Gray,
(Chapter 2: “Secular Humanism: A Sacred Relic”, Penguin, 2019, p23-27)
My comments in (bold)

“While rejecting monotheism, the belief that humans are gradually improving, a central article of faith of modern humanism, is founded on pseudo-Christian monotheistic idealism.”

For the ancient world, time was seen as cyclic, and the rhythms of humanity were not essentially different from those found in the rest of the natural world – in none of its literature is any prospect of indefinite improvement. Civilizations flourish, but they will eventually decline, such is the natural order of things; cycles cannot be overcome, and if and when the gods intervene, often the result is a world more unpredictable and treacherous.

In the fifth century BC, Herodotus has the gods acting to punish wrongdoing, but there is no suggestion that they were interested in shaping the course of history. Thucydides has been called the father of ‘scientific history’. But for him there were no laws of history, only the fact of recurring human folly – a succession of mishaps in which human will and reason are confounded by human flaws.

In the Abrahamic monotheisms, and Christianity in particular, a definite end of the passage of time was in sight – Christ would return in glory and establish a New Jerusalem, the Kingdom of God on earth, but this speaks of the end of one cycle and the start of another, and furthermore never presupposed any idea of human progress towards the parousia, rather if anything it is the other way round, it would seem at the moment of humanity’s lowest ebb that this end will come about.

When in Europe religion began to be replaced by secular creeds, the Christian myth of history as a redemptive drama was not abandoned, but renewed in another guise. A story of redemption was replaced by one of progress through the collective efforts of humanity.

Apocalyptic mythologising fuelled the millenarian movements of medieval times, and emerged again in the millenarian movements in America, and is still around today with the idea of The Rapture. The country that put a man on the moon is also the place of origin of such materialist revisions of mystical ideas as Creationism and the Flat Earth Theory.

That sense of foreboding that gave rise to ‘superstition’ in the ancient world is present in secular ‘conspiracy theory’ today – it’s the same impulse.

Seventeenth century Protestantism recast this myth as human-centred. The belief that evil would be destroyed in an apocalyptic endtime was supplanted by the conviction of the march of Enlightenment that would diminish the darkness of history and the darkness seemingly inherent in human nature.

Indeed, the Enlightenment saw itself as the triumph of the rational (masculine) mind over reckless (feminine) nature – a creature to be tamed by science and put to work for the greater good (of the same class of entitled and privileged ol white men).

Emptied of its mystical and transcendental content, this myth is the source of modern meliorism – the idea that human life can is is gradually improved. It underpinned The Prosperity Gospel, the American Dream, and was the engine that drove colonialism.

Another element derived from Gnosticism – the belief that salvation was achieved by acquiring a special kind of knowledge.

In the classical philosophies of the ancient world this knowledge was a type of insight acquired through the practice of contemplation. In modern times it was knowledge gained through science. In each case it was believed that knowledge could bring deliverance from evil/darkness.

The modern myth of progress is a fusion of pseudoChristian faith and Gnostic thinking. Progress is linear, and science was the knowledge that would unlock the shackles of ignorance, open the doors to utopia, and set us free.

The idea of linear progress has never been examined as a possible falsifiable hypothesis. There just seems too much evidence. Evolution, as it still generally and mistakenly understood, means that everything is moving inexorably towards its own perfection. Likewise our technologies – agriculture, biology, cosmology, and so on march on apace.

For those who believe in progress, any regression is only a temporary halt in an onward march to a better world.

Yet if one looks at the historical record of the human species – as human – outside of the chimera of its technological achievements – it is hard to detect any continuing strand of improvement.

While there was nothing in the pagan world of the liberal concern for individual freedom, pluralism in ways of life was accepted as a matter of course. If heresy was introduced by monotheism, that mantle has been taken up by social media, by ‘cancel culture’ where threat and persecution abounds.

The secular world is forever reminding us, the medieval and early modern world was wracked by wars of religion. But faith-based violence has not faded away with the arrival of modernity. From the French Revolution on, Europe and much of the world has been caught up in revolutions and wars fuelled by secular creeds such as Jacobinism and communism, Nazism and fascism, and today a belligerently evangelical type of liberalism.

It is true that slavery and torture were flaws of premodern societies. But these practices have not disappeared. Slavery was reintroduced in the twentieth century on a vast scale in Nazi Germany and the Soviet and Maoist gulags. Slavery was outlawed after a civil war America, only to be replaced by the penal system in which the ‘underclass’ works for nothing to underpin the economy. Whole nations are enslaved to western economies to cater to the fad, fashions and fancies of the privileged few.

Human trafficking flourishes throughout much of the world and finds its outlet in the supposedly civilised West. Torture was sanctioned in the run-up to the invasion of Iraq in the face of every reasoned, rational and logical argument against it. The rendition flight are still in the air, and black sites exist in the most civilised states.

The cumulative increase of knowledge in science has no parallel in human ethics or politics, philosophy or the arts. Knowledge increases at an accelerating rate, but human beings are no more reasonable than they have ever been. Gains occur from time to time, but they are lost after a few generations.

What progress believers cannot digest is the fact that gains in ethics and politics come and go according to expedience. They are not given. They are not embedded in, or even intrinsic to, human nature. Altruism is a secular invention to replace Christian agape.

When secular thinkers tell the history of humankind as a story of progress they point at technology and flatter themselves that they embody the progress of which that speaks. As if agriculture, or medicines or flying machines means the human person is covering a similar distance in the development and evolution of being – heading into a future that is morally and ethically as bright as it is technologically, that somehow technology is the proof of that, as if meaning and value and morality and ethics is derived from the lens, the lever or the wheel.

They forget that science and technology are void of ethics and morals – and will happily produce toxic nerve agents as it will vaccines; it will invent weapons of unimaginable, world-ending destructive power, without batting an eye or question for whom this weapon is being developed, or why.

Meanwhile, we live in a world of social media that evidences an ever-increasing militant intolerance.

Instead of being left behind, old evils return under new names. Nothing changes. So it goes.

 

Thomas 12/01/2024

Visit Thread: https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/20980/

 

Sapere aude

Hello Fellow Homo sapiens:

Homo sapiens means wise humans. Let’s work at it!

I come from a Jewish background, and as a pre-teen could not understand how adults could believe in the Old Testament. It was obviously mythology.

These childhood observations led me to become interested in a number of related areas, like other religions, psychology, physics, etc. I wanted to know what the evidence showed, and why people willfully ignored the evidence.

While pursuing my professional career in the nuclear power industry, I didn’t have much time to pursue these interests, but now that I’m retired, I’m good to go.

When communicating on the Internet, I unfortunately find that in discussing these issues, many religious people feel they are being “attacked”. Criticism is not “attacking”. I welcome criticism, and “attacks”. Tell me why you think I’m wrong, and if your evidence or logic is sound, I will have learned something.

Thank you in advance.

 

 

 

Naturalist Jan 6, 2024

Visit Thread: https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/20963/

 

Reasoning the LHP

Hi Amir Alzzalam –

I’ve picked up the discussion from the Sapere aude thread, because it seems more relevant here –

‘Amir Alzzalam said:

When I use the word ‘faith’ I mean it in the way that I have faith the sun will rise tomorrow morning, as it has for a long time, I also have faith that the tenets of the Western Left Hand Path work as they are demonstrable and consistent.

If I read you correctly, here and elsewhere, faith as you describe it here is based on a reasonable assumption based on experience – eg. the sun invariably rises in the east, and barring some catastrophe, will continue to do so … that kind of thing?

But for the outsider, the certitude of the sun rising in the east is not a philosophical question, it’s an objective actuality. The LHP is not the same order of thing.

‘Amir Alzzalam said:

The LHP is a philosophy that doesn’t require objective proof.

A question then – without detracting in any way from the LHP as such – is without objectively-observable criteria, how do you present the LHP to another? Moreover, how can you reason it to someone who doubts its credibility?

(One doesn’t have to convince another that the sun will rise in the east tomorrow – just ask them to look for themselves.)

That the LHP is demonstrable and consistent to you, according to your own satisfaction, may well be the case – but I am not sure what grounds you can offer it as reasonable and rational, etc?

To be clear – I am not trying to disprove the LHP, but I am suggesting it’s somewhat disingenuous to refute a theism so vociferously when your own path is subject to the same critical dismissal?

How do you answer the accusation of the LHP being simply a fantasy within one’s imagination?

‘Amir Alzzalam said:

What is referred to as Apotheosis on the Western Left Hand Path … entails realizing one’s Greater Self, and bringing this Self into your everyday life in order to become more than Human.

How does the LHP describe or define the ‘Greater Self’?
How is the Greater Self more than human?
How does one know one has realised this Greater Self?

 

 

Thomas 13/01/2024

Visit Thread: https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/20981/

 

Growth Christianity

For the last two years I have sensed a (proverbial) “calling.” Something or some part of me says “Articulate and promote an expression of Christianity that empowers people to grow towards wholeness.” The inner voice’s emphasis seemed to be on the word “grow.”

So, one of the first steps to answer the call was to name the “expression.” The name “Growth Christianity,” emerged and began to form a kind of conceptual basket to carry my inner Moses baby down the river of spiritual seeking and creating.

Externally, a book by Will Willimon, upped the motivation to answer the call. The book is The Gospel for the Person Who has Everything.

The book is a theological “cover song” of some earlier concepts by other theologians whose song wasn’t given much airtime by mainstream Christianity. It never became a hit. Perhaps the master could not yet appear because the students weren’t ready?
The master appeared to me as I read (and discussed in a Bible School class) Willimon’s book. A contrast between standard Sin/Salvation theology and a new emphasis on intentional efforts to grow spiritually deeper and wider was voiced throughout the book. The “singing” harmonized with the song in the heart of my head.

More recently, an INTERNAL event inspired me. I was experiencing some predictable but unexpected blues most likely resulting from life changes (a second retirement, probably feeling less useful?). The blues were unexpected because I thought my faith and/or general spirituality should have been up to the task of the not-terribly-major changes in my life.

But the general tendency for all humans is to underestimate the impacts of emotional events. We are all somewhat susceptible to Post Traumatic Stress. Self, as it turns out, included.

So I decided to put this mini dark night of the soul to good use. I prayerfully intended a download of a spiritual upgrade in my self “program.” One or two days after my ask, my bulky coat hit a highly sentimental coffee mug off a counter top and shattered it. I cried immediately because it had the pictures of my two angelic grandchildren on it, now vanished into thick floor. As it turned out, the immediate crying might have actually been a first fruit of my upgrade. Had I minimized the sense of loss, it would have clogged up my inner flow. I soon realized that on the other side of the coin was a special love that gave me the reason to grieve in the first place. Who needs a picture when you have the real blessing!

Healing happened, by not just as manna from the sky. I mindfully, intentionally, decided to work through the blue. God helped me help myself—the God that sometimes seems to be an Other, but at other times seems to be True Self (The God that is, at least, not not self.).

THIS is growth. THIS is a beautiful expression of Christianity. Enfleshed divine Love.

My calling is far from being completely answered. I plan to write a simple book on the topic/theme: Growth Christianity, a new way to say thank you Jesus. Subtitle optional (It just now came to me!).

Much discussion on this interfaith forum has occurred regarding the tendency for Christianity to wain in areas of prosperity and wax/gain in non prosperous regions. One of the main points of Willimon’s book is that we need not be dependent on personal or collective desperation to utilize the spiritual offerings of Christianity.

I would love to invite you to a discussion about the concept of growth Christianity, as well as discussion about the effectiveness of the new branding, including the coined phrase.

Love,
Darrell Moneyhon (otherbrother)

 

otherbrother 20/12/2023

Visit thread: https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/20937/

 

 

On the Question of Evil

From the works of Frithjof Schuon:

Manifestation is not the Principle, the effect is not the cause; that which is ‘other than God’ could not possess the perfections of God, hence in the final analysis and within the general imperfection of the created, there results that privative and subversive phenomenon which we call evil. This is to say that the cosmogonic ray, by plunging as it were into ‘nothingness’ – we might say from Beyond-Being, through all modes of being, on into no-being – ends by manifesting ‘the possibility of the impossible’; the ‘absurd’ cannot but be produced somewhere in the economy of the divine Possibility, otherwise the Infinite would not be the Infinite.

But strictly speaking, evil or the devil cannot oppose the Divinity, who has no opposite; it opposes man who is the mirror of God and the movement towards the divine.
(The Play of Masks, “Man in the Cosmogonic Projection”)

With the intention of resolving the problem of evil, some have maintained that evil does not exist for God, and consequently that for Him everything is a good, which is inadmissible and ill-sounding. What ought to be said is that God sees the privative manifestations only in connection with the positive manifestations that compensate for them; thus evil is a provisional factor in view of a greater good, of a ‘victory of the Truth’; vincit omnia Veritas.
(The Play of Masks, “Ex Nihilo, In Deo”)

+++

What should be said is that evil is integrated into the universal Good, not as evil but as an ontological necessity, (as we have pointed out above), this necessity underlies evil, it is metaphysically inherent in it, without however transforming it into a good.
(The Transfiguration of Man, “The Mystery of Possibility”)

+++

Infinitude, which is an aspect of the Divine Nature, implies unlimited Possibility and consequently Relativity, Manifestation, the world. To speak of the world is to speak of separation from the Principle, and to speak of separation is to speak of the possibility – and necessity – of evil; seen from this angle, what we term evil is thus indirectly a result of Infinitude, hence of the Divine Nature; in this respect, God cannot wish to suppress it; likewise, in this respect – and only in this respect – evil ceases to be evil, being no more than an indirect and distant manifestation of a mysterious aspect of the Divine Nature, precisely that of Infinitude or of All-Possibility.

One could also say that Infinitude engenders Possibility, and Possibility engenders Relativity; now Relativity contains by definition what we could term the principle of contrast. Insofar as a quality is relative – or is reflected in Relativity – it has ontological need of a contrast, not intrinsically or in virtue of its content, but extrinsically and in virtue of its mode, thus because of its contingency. Indeed, it is the relative or contingent character of a quality that requires or brings about the existence of the corresponding privative manifestation, with all its possible gradations and as a result, its defect, vice, evil.

Evil is the possibility of the impossible, since relative good is the Possible approaching impossibility; for it is from this paradoxical combination of Possibility with impossibility – impossibility becoming real only in and through Possibility – that Contingency or Relativity originates, if one may be allowed an ellipsis that is complex and daring, but difficult to avoid at this point.

If God cannot eliminate evil as a possibility, it is because in this respect evil is a function of His Nature and, being so, it ceases as a result to be evil; and what God cannot do, on pain of contradiction or absurdity, He could never will. However, the Divine Will opposes evil inasmuch as it is contrary to the Divine Nature, which is Goodness or Perfection; in this relationship of opposition – and in this alone – evil is intrinsically evil.

God fights this evil perfectly since, on all planes, it is the good that is finally victorious; evil is never more than a fragment or a transition, whether we are in a position to see this or not.
(Form and Substance in the Religions, “The Question of Theodicies”)

+++

The nature of evil, and not its inevitability, constitutes its condemnation; its inevitability must be accepted, for tragedy enters perforce into the divine play, if only because the world is not God; one must not accept error, but one must be resigned to its existence. But beyond earthly destructions there is the Indestructible: “Every form you see,” says Rumi, “has its archetype in the divine world, beyond space; if the form perishes what matter, since its heavenly model is indestructible? Every beautiful form you have seen, every meaningful word you have heard – be not sorrowful because all this must be lost; such is not really the case. The divine Source is immortal and its outflowing gives water without cease; since neither the one nor the other can be stopped, wherefore do you lament? . . . From the first moment when you entered this world of existence, a ladder has been set up before you . . .”
(Light on the Ancient Worlds, “The Shamanism of the Red Indians”( sic))

 

Thomas Dec 13, 2023

Visit thread: https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/20932/