identifying...Babylon the great

[mee]

Re: Babylon the great

It seems to me that Daniel only speaks of four empires.

Daniel 2:32
This image's head was of fine gold,
his breast and his arms of silver,
his belly and his thighs of brass,
His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.






​

We are told that the gold represented Babylon, so the the silver represented the Medo-Persians, the brass the Greeks, and the iron was Rome. The iron continues until the end, mixed with “clay” … thus it is in a diluted and different form among the people. (Clay represents people. Dan 2:43).

There is a continuous uninterrupted flow from one empire to the other. Your understanding places at least a 1000 year gap between the legs and the feet.

I see the seven kings of Rev 17 as individual rulers because they foreshadow the ‘beast’ who is also a person.

Even though we see things very differently, I appreciate the way you do not use personal putdown in your posts … a good example for us all!

yes , the image in Daniel i also see as the head being the Babylonian empire, and the silver breasts and arms as medo -persians ,and the copper as Greecian, the iron being the roman world power, the iron mixed with clay does not mix togeather very well ,
The succession of world powers represented by the various parts of the image in Nebuchadnezzar’s dream began with the head and extended down to the feet. Logically, the feet and toes of "iron mixed with moist clay" would symbolize the final manifestation of human rule that would exist during "the time of the end."—Daniel 12:4.
Now that we are in "the time of the end," we have reached the feet of the image. Some of the governments pictured by the image’s feet and toes of iron mixed with clay are ironlike—authoritarian or tyrannical. Others are claylike. as you mentioned, Daniel associated the clay with "the offspring of mankind." (Daniel 2:43) Despite the fragile nature of clay, of which the offspring of mankind are made, traditional ironlike rulerships have been obliged to listen more and more to the common people, who want their say in the governments ruling over them. (Job 10:9) But there is no sticking together of authoritarian rule and the common people—no more than there could be a uniting of iron with clay. At the time of the image’s demise, the world will indeed be politically fragmented! and so it is,
When "the appointed times of the nations" ended in October 1914, "the God of heaven" established the heavenly Kingdom by enthroning his anointed Son, Jesus Christ, as the "King of kings and Lord of lords." (Luke 21:24; Revelation 12:1-5; 19:16) So it was that by divine power, not by human hands, the Messianic Kingdom "stone" was cut out of the "mountain" of Jehovah’s universal sovereignty. This heavenly government is in the hands of Jesus Christ, upon whom God has conferred immortality. (Romans 6:9; 1 Timothy 6:15, 16) Hence, this "kingdom of our Lord [God] and of his Christ"—an expression of Jehovah’s universal sovereignty—will not be passed on to anyone else. It will stand forever.—Revelation 11:15. for me i feel that we are living in thrilling times indeed. and the bible always comes true , right down to every detail .

 

[kenod]

Re: Babylon the great

Now that we are in "the time of the end," we have reached the feet of the image. Some of the governments pictured by the image’s feet and toes of iron mixed with clay are ironlike—authoritarian or tyrannical.

You have still not explained the 1000+ years gap that your interpretation puts between the legs and the feet. Nor have you explained that Daniel only spoke of FOUR kingdoms - you are making a fifth kingdom. It seems clear to me that Rome (iron) would continue right until the end, when the Messianic Kingdom will be set up. When Jesus Christ comes to rule and reign on the earth, the whole world will know, so I do not believe it has happened yet.

 

[Quahom1]

Re: Babylon the great

You have still not explained the 1000+ years gap that your interpretation puts between the legs and the feet. Nor have you explained that Daniel only spoke of FOUR kingdoms - you are making a fifth kingdom. It seems clear to me that Rome (iron) would continue right until the end, when the Messianic Kingdom will be set up. When Jesus Christ comes to rule and reign on the earth, the whole world will know, so I do not believe it has happened yet.

I'd like to point out a few things here as well.

Daniel doesn't say specifically that there are only four kingdoms. He describes the first, the third and the fourth, as being the first, third and fourth, however he also describes the second (without calling it the second), and by identifying the "fifth", as "the kingdom", one can infer that it is indeed a seperate kingdom from the first four. What this "fifth kingdom" is can be considered from several different perspectives (and indeed appears to be).

Some consider it the partial rebirth of the Roman kingdom through the ten nations in Europe, some consider it to be the two sets of five kingdoms around Israel (those five kings to the north of Israel and the five kings to the South of Israel), which would make them Islamic (these kingdoms hate the whore, as well as Israel). Some have even considered it the Russia (with its might), joining with the Vatican (with it massive influence), to form a new Roman power, while others still consider it the blending of the seed of man, with demonic forces, to form the new and final kingdom.

Also the issue with Jesus receiving His kingdom of the Earth after 1260 days, and rule over everything after 2520, thing get a bit sticky. For example if the days are years, and the first part is marked by say 1914, then...we've got another millenia to go, to finish the second part of the prophecy...

v/r

Q

 

[kenod]

Re: Babylon the great

I'd like to point out a few things here as well.

Daniel doesn't say specifically that there are only four kingdoms. He describes the first, the third and the fourth, as being the first, third and fourth, however he also describes the second (without calling it the second), and by identifying the "fifth", as "the kingdom", one can infer that it is indeed a seperate kingdom from the first four.
Q

I think it is difficult to support a fifth kingdom because of the lack of any contextual clues to indicate a subsequent one. This is a point noted by the NIV translators who rendered Daniel 2:40 as “Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom …”.

The nature of Daniel's interpretation also indicates that each kingdom replaces the preceding one. There are no significant time gaps.

The four kingdoms represented by the parts of the man are paralleled by the four beasts of Daniel 7. The lion, especially a winged lion, is symbolic of Babylon. This is succeeded by the bear (Medes & Persians), the leopard (Greece), and finally, a “terrifying beast”.

It is interesting to note that features of the previous kingdoms are all manifested in the final beast as it is described in Rev 13:2 (“The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.” NIV)

It seems to me that the fourth kingdom retains its power until the literal return of Jesus Christ.

 

[mee]

Re: Babylon the great

You have still not explained the 1000+ years gap that your interpretation puts between the legs and the feet. Nor have you explained that Daniel only spoke of FOUR kingdoms - you are making a fifth kingdom. It seems clear to me that Rome (iron) would continue right until the end, when the Messianic Kingdom will be set up. When Jesus Christ comes to rule and reign on the earth, the whole world will know, so I do not believe it has happened yet.

The iron legs of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream image pictured not only the Roman Empire but also its political outgrowth. Consider these words recorded at Revelation 17:10: "There are seven kings: five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet arrived, but when he does arrive he must remain a short while." When the apostle John penned these words, he was being held in exile by the Romans, on the isle of Patmos. The five fallen kings, or world powers, were Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece. The sixth—the Roman Empire—was still in power. But it also was to fall, and the seventh king would arise from one of Rome’s captured territories. What world power would that be?​

Britain was once a northwestern part of the Roman Empire. But by the year 1763, it had become the British Empire—the Britannia that ruled the seven seas. By 1776 its 13 American colonies had declared their independence in order to set up the United States of America. In later years, however, Britain and the United States became partners in both war and peace. Thus, the Anglo-American combination came into existence as the seventh world power of Bible prophecy. Like the Roman Empire, it has proved to be "strong like iron," exercising ironlike authority. The iron legs of the dream image thus include both the Roman Empire and the Anglo-American dual world power.

 

[mee]

Re: Babylon the great

The birth of the Kingdom took place "in the days of those kings." (Daniel 2:44) These were not only the kings pictured by the ten toes of the image but also those symbolized by its iron, copper, silver, and gold parts. Although the Babylonian, Persian, Grecian, and Roman empires had passed away as world powers, their remnants still existed in 1914. The Turkish Ottoman Empire then occupied the territory of Babylonia, and national governments were functioning in Persia (Iran) and Greece and Rome, Italy.

 

[mee]

Re: Babylon the great

Ancient Babylon’s fall and eventual desolation was a punishment for her sins. "For clear to the heavens her judgment has reached." (Jeremiah 51:9) Similarly, the sins of Babylon the Great have "massed together clear up to heaven," so as to come to the attention of Jehovah himself. She is guilty of injustice, idolatry, immorality, oppression, robbery, and murder. Ancient Babylon’s fall was, in part, vengeance for what she had done to Jehovah’s temple and his true worshipers. (Jeremiah 50:8, 14; 51:11, 35, 36) The fall of Babylon the Great and her eventual destruction are likewise expressions of vengeance for what she has done to true worshipers over the centuries. Indeed, her final destruction is the beginning of "the day of vengeance on the part of our God."—Isaiah 34:8-10; 61:2; Jeremiah 50:28.

 

[kenod]

Re: Babylon the great

Consider these words recorded at Revelation 17:10: "There are seven kings: five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet arrived, but when he does arrive he must remain a short while." When the apostle John penned these words, he was being held in exile by the Romans, on the isle of Patmos. The five fallen kings, or world powers, were Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece. The sixth—the Roman Empire—was still in power. But it also was to fall, and the seventh king would arise from one of Rome’s captured territories. What world power would that be?​

Britain was once a northwestern part of the Roman Empire. But by the year 1763, it had become the British Empire—the Britannia that ruled the seven seas. By 1776 its 13 American colonies had declared their independence in order to set up the United States of America. In later years, however, Britain and the United States became partners in both war and peace. Thus, the Anglo-American combination came into existence as the seventh world power of Bible prophecy. Like the Roman Empire, it has proved to be "strong like iron," exercising ironlike authority. The iron legs of the dream image thus include both the Roman Empire and the Anglo-American dual world power.

1763 - 2006 does not sound like a "short while" to me.

 

[mee]

Re: Babylon the great

1763 - 2006 does no
t sound like a "short while" to me.

Soon now, the world powers will have had their day. we are now in the politically divided world in the time of the end, and the others so far have ruled longer . as far as i know.

 

[mee]

Re: Babylon the great

the kingdom was set up in 1914 and Jesus is now ruling, he will go into action on behalf of his father Jehovah , only Jehovah knows the day and the hour , but the day of Jehovah is very close now, and as revelation says, they are being gathered to the symbolic place for the great day of Jehovah. And they gathered them together to the place that is called in Hebrew Har–Ma·ged´on. revelation 16;16
(Revelation 19:19) And I saw the wild beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage the war with the one seated on the horse and with his army.
(Revelation 16:14) They are, in fact, expressions inspired by demons and perform signs, and they go forth to the kings of the entire inhabited earth, to gather them together to the war of the great day of God the Almighty.

 

[mee]

Re: Babylon the great

by the time armageddon comes , babylon the great(the world empire of false religion) will not be around anymore , she will have been got rid of by God.

 

[BlaznFattyz]

Re: Babylon the great

the kingdom was set up in 1914 and Jesus is now ruling

isnt there a thread already for watchtower propaganda? sneaking in jw numerology into this thread does not appear to invoke any intelligent conversation, but arguments and unanswered requests for scriptural proof, which have already been repeated into the ground.

 

[Quahom1]

Re: Babylon the great

by the time armageddon comes , babylon the great(the world empire of false religion) will not be around anymore , she will have been got rid of by God.

Actually by the AntiChrist...

 

[Quahom1]

Re: Babylon the great

the kingdom was set up in 1914 and Jesus is now ruling, he will go into action on behalf of his father Jehovah , only Jehovah knows the day and the hour , but the day of Jehovah is very close now, and as revelation says, they are being gathered to the symbolic place for the great day of Jehovah.

That statement is an "oxymoron" Mee. Only Jehovah knows/but the day of jehovah is very close now...?

Who let you in on the "little secret"?

*moderator hat on*

You have driven the point home into our hands and our feet...time to back off (lest you drive the point right through and we come down from our crosses, for lack of purchase)...

Let other's speak their mind for a chance, please.

*moderator hat off*

v/r

Q

 

[kenod]

Re: Babylon the great

Soon now, the world powers will have had their day. we are now in the politically divided world in the time of the end, and the others so far have ruled longer . as far as i know.

The Persian empire was shorter (539-331BC).
So what does a "short space" mean in Rev 17:10?

 

[kenod]

Re: Babylon the great

The Persian empire was shorter (539-331BC).
So what does a "short space" mean in Rev 17:10?

The Babylonian empire which came between the Assyrian and Persian empires was shorter still!

 

[mee]

Re: Babylon the great

isnt there a thread already for watchtower propaganda? sneaking in jw numerology into this thread does not appear to invoke any intelligent conversation, but arguments and unanswered requests for scriptural proof, which have already been repeated into the ground.

it depends on how a person responds to fullfilled bible prophecy, 1914 is a significant date according to bible prophecy and chronology, and certainly does have a lot to do with where we are in the stream of time . so in my eyes, rather than being propaganda it is very inline with the bible . but of cause there will always be opposers to Jesus kingship. it is to be expected, if there was no opposition there would be something not quite right. and there certainly is opposition to Jesus kingship. but maybe that is for another thread. Babylon the great is the world empire of false religion ,and even those who claim to be christian are in opposition to Jesus kingship , and it is a fact that it is the so called religious leaders that are the ones taking the lead in this opposition, which in turn leads their flocks away from Jesus and the only way to peace on the earth . many are misled by false religious leaders . but Jesus sheep know his voice and are inline with Jesus and his father Jehovah . Jehovahs grand purpose for the earth will be fullfilled regardless of the opposers . and it is all happening in this time of the end . i find it to be really thrilling times that we are living in , what a relief it will be when there is no more false religion to cause problems on the earth , and what a relief it will be when all the opposers of Gods heavenly kingdom goverment are removed by God .Daniel 2;44
The Devil continues to be angry over his debasement in 1914. He knows his time is short. His rage is sure to intensify as the great tribulation draws near. He is totally committed to his war against the enthroned King, Christ Jesus,
On this account be glad, YOU heavens and YOU who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to YOU, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time. revelation 12;12 so opposition is to be expected , the opposer of Jesus, satan the devil is running riot. but not for much longer ,fighting against the prince of peace is not the thing to do , i would much rather be on the side of the prince of peace.

 

[mee]

Re: Babylon the great

The Babylonian empire which came between the Assyrian and Persian empires was shorter still!

we are now in the last days , we are well along into bible prophecy and the time of the end , or the conclusion of a system of things, and the book of revelation is now well along ,we are in the lords day. and many things are being revealed and uncovered ,especially regarding Jesus kingship that happened in 1914 , and the things that would be happening on the earth since then.

 

[mee]

Re: Babylon the great

That statement is an "oxymoron" Mee. Only Jehovah knows/but the day of jehovah is very close now...?

Who let you in on the "little secret"?

*moderator hat on*

You have driven the point home into our hands and our feet...time to back off (lest you drive the point right through and we come down from our crosses, for lack of purchase)...

Let other's speak their mind for a chance, please.

*moderator hat off*

v/r

Q

we know we are in the last days from bible prophecy and chronology, and the signs that Jesus himself told us to look out for ,but the day and hour only Jehovah knows . so it does make sense it is not a contratiction, i am not stopping others from having a say, go ahead.

 

[BlaznFattyz]

Re: Babylon the great

i am not stopping others from having a say, go ahead.

yeah now that the conversation has once again been derailed to preach watchtower numerology, we may go ahead...thank you, it would be nice to get back to topic. babylon the great isn't it?