Broaching the Trinity: Three Persons?

[Thomas]

Before looking at the Trinity per se, what Biblical evidence is there for a doctrine of Three Divine Persons?

The doctrine of the Trinity states that God is One who eternally exists as three distinct Persons — the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Stated differently, God is One in essence and Three in person.

Why Person?
Clearly Scripture speaks of the Father as God (Philipians 1:2), Jesus as God (Titus 2:11), and the Holy Spirit as God (Acts 5:3-4).

Scripture also indicates that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct entities. The Father sends the Son (John 3:16), Father and Son send the Holy Spirit (John 14:26; Acts 2:33). As the Son is distinct from the Father, the Holy Spirit is similarly distinct with regard to both, even though both Son and Holy Spirit are referred to as Son of God (the Father) and Holy Spirit of God (the Father and the Son).

In the baptism of Jesus, all three are noted – the Father in heaven, the Holy Spirit descending, the Son rising from the water.

John 1:1 it is affirms that Jesus is the Logos, present with God, and indeed was God. The text goes on to say that the Logos was "in the beginning with God", a reference not only to Genesis 1:1, but also that the Greek term for beginning in arche, which implies something other than the temporal order. Suffice to say the Logos was God, and yet with God, and it was through the Logos that creation came to be, and in the Logos was life. (v2-3).

Thus the transcendent Jesus is a distinct entity with regard to the Father. And John 16:13-15 has the Holy Spirit distinct from the Father and the Son.

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This distinction is crucial, as is the personal qualities attributed to each. They will, they act. They have a part to play in the Mission of Salvation. Each is spoken of as a Person, even if the Holy Spirit does not carry a personal name – as in fact nor do the other two in this regard, being spoken of as Father and Son – a designation of relation.

Clearly the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is neither Father nor Son. They are different entities, but are presented with personal attributes, most importantly are shown to be and act independently – thus best described as different persons, rather than three ways of looking at the God.

Personhood implies a centre of consciousness. Thus, they relate to each other personally — the Father regards Himself as “I,” while He regards the Son and Holy Spirit as “You.” Likewise the Son regards Himself as “I,” but the Father and the Holy Spirit as “You.”

It is precisely the dialogue between the Father and the Son (Matthew 3:17; 17:5; John 5:19; 11:41-42; 17:1ff ) which offers evidence of separate centres of consciousness.

The Holy Spirit is a 'He' (cf John 14:26; 16:7-15; Acts 8:16), not an impersonal force; He speaks (Hebrews 3:7), He reasons (Acts 15:28), He thinks and He understands (1 Corinthians 2:10-11), wills (1 Corinthians 12:11), feels (Ephesians 4:30), and gives personal fellowship (2 Corinthians 13:14).

Thus they are best and properly understood as three real persons, rather than three modes or three roles of the Father.

Again, whilst the early Fathers spoke of the three in a hierarchical manner, there was never a 'time' when one or other did not exist. The Father is God, God is Father, eternally so, and thus to be God the Father eternally means the Son is eternal also. And the Holy Spirit.

Again whilst even Jesus implies a hierarchy, he also implies equality – in no sense are any of the three inferior. Instead, they are all identical and equal in power, love, mercy, justice, holiness, knowledge, and so on.

Nor does this mean that 'God' is a composite of three separate parts.

An early liturgy, before all the trinitarian debates, declares: "in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form” (Colossians 2:9).

Thus, as hard as it is to comprehend, the individual being of each Person is equal to the whole being of God, the divine essence is not something that is divided or shared between the three persons.

 

[TheLightWithin]

Scripture also indicates that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct entities.

Clearly the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is neither Father nor Son. They are different entities, but are presented with personal attributes, most importantly are shown to be and act independently – thus best described as different persons, rather than three ways of looking at the God.

Personhood implies a centre of consciousness. Thus, they relate to each other personally — the Father regards Himself as “I,” while He regards the Son and Holy Spirit as “You.” Likewise the Son regards Himself as “I,” but the Father and the Holy Spirit as “You.”

It is precisely the dialogue between the Father and the Son (Matthew 3:17; 17:5; John 5:19; 11:41-42; 17:1ff ) which offers evidence of separate centres of consciousness.

What is it about these ideas that distinguish the theology from tritheism?

 

[TheLightWithin]

Again, whilst the early Fathers spoke of the three in a hierarchical manner

Again whilst even Jesus implies a hierarchy

What is it about subordinationism then that would be regarded as definitively wrong?

he also implies equality

Is that a contradiction? If not, how not? If so, how resolved?

Nor does this mean that 'God' is a composite of three separate parts.

Why does it not? On the face of it it seems to.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Why does it not? On the face of it it seems to.

Well, that is the problem .. people all have differing explanations..
..with perhaps the majority, deciding it's a 'mystery'.

 

[Base12]

Before looking at the Trinity per se, what Biblical evidence is there for a doctrine of Three Divine Persons?

No Doctrine is required. The concept of Three Divine Persons is all over the Bible. Anyone can see it for themselves without 'Big Brother' hovering over their shoulders telling them what to believe and not to believe. Unfortunately, there is a Spirit at work here that does not want the average person to Truly understand the Trinity because the general public would become too empowered.

Full knowledge of the Trinity enables One to understand the very nature of not just God, but the very fabric of reality itself. It is immensely profound. It is literally one of the biggest Keys to Knowlege out there. Thus, the information is dangerous to the Powers that Be. This is why there is a concerted effort to either marginalize or do away with the concept entirely. This is a real thing that folks do not seem to be aware of. Yes, there is an agenda. I run into it almost daily.

I have spent years going down this rabbit hole and have been attacked, shadow banned, censored, you name it. You can see how so many anti-Trinitarians not only have trouble with basic comprehension skills, but they are extremely 'cult like' in the manner they defend their position. It is as if they are possessed or something. They refuse to be corrected. I have seen this mindset grow over the last two decades. Something is not right with them.

 

[Base12]

...what Biblical evidence is there for a doctrine of Three Divine Persons?

Because the concept of the Trinity is so rich with Wisdom and could take a long time to digest, I always suggest starting Students off with the basics. In other words, teaching them the basics of Tripartite Theology and go from there...

In Christian theology, the tripartite view (trichotomy) holds that humankind is a composite of three distinct components: body, spirit, and soul. It is in contrast to the bipartite view (dichotomy), where soul and spirit are taken as different terms for the same entity (the spiritual soul).

Tripartite (theology) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I have noticed a lot of anti-Trinitarians hold the Bipartite view. This is a stumbling block for them.

Anyone can understand Body, Soul and Spirit once they are taught the Biblical definitions.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Once this hurdle is past, it gets easier.

 

[Base12]

Here is how easy this is.

If a dead Body is lying on the ground, is it a Person? Yes. The Body can be identified and funeral arrangements made.

There you go, a Body is a Person, even if its Spirit and Soul is no longer in it.

Is a Spirit a Person? When someone passes away, their Spirit leaves their Body. That Spirit is still that Person.

There you go, a Spirit is a Person.

The problem is that most do not understand what a Soul is. A Soul is a living organisms Genome. That is what the Bible teaches.

The Word was made flesh. We call that DNA now.

So, is a Genome a Person? Of course. If all we have is some DNA, we can have it tested and accurately identify who it is.

Thus, a Soul is a Person as well.

Body = Person
Soul = Person
Spirit = Person

They are Three, yet they are One.

So easy, a Caveman could understand it.

 

[Base12]

Father Abraham is the Archetype example of Father, Son, Holy Ghost.

Abraham is a Father.
Abraham has a Son inside of him called Levi.
Abraham has a Spirit.

There you go. Three Persons in One...

Hebrews 7:9-10
"And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him."

Levi can even be understood to be in the bosom of the Father... like literally.

Jesus is symbolic of the Soul of the Father, as in the Genome of the Father. He is the Logos, the Word.

Thus, when Jesus goes to Heaven, he *merges* with the Father because the Father is his Body. This is for the Advanced Student to understand...

John 1:18
"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

Again, it is LITERAL people. This is a huge hurdle to overcome. Take your time.

There is no 'second throne' next to the Throne of God. The Slain Lamb is symbolic of the Soul, the Genome, the Nitrogen Base of God.

Jesus is Abraham's Seed. Get it? The Seed is in the loins of the Father.

 

[TheLightWithin]

Well, that is the problem .. people all have differing explanations..
..with perhaps the majority, deciding it's a 'mystery'.

Indeed

 

[Base12]

The Word was made flesh. We call that DNA now.

Does anyone see the problem with the above statement? You need to think like a corrupt "Scholar".

We cannot have folks believing that the most intimate details of DNA were in the Bible thousands of years before their discovery now can we?

That would be proof of God, or at the very least, proof of an extremely advanced intelligence at a time when the "Scholars" tell us there was not.

Oops! You are all busted for thinking dangerous thoughts that the Bible was inspired by God and not written by Man.

 

[TheLightWithin]

You can see how so many anti-Trinitarians not only have trouble with basic comprehension skills, but they are extremely 'cult like' in the manner they defend their position. It is as if they are possessed or something. They refuse to be corrected. I have seen this mindset grow over the last two decades. Something is not right with them.

Great post till this last paragraph. You seem to be attacking people not ideas.

 

[TheLightWithin]

Does anyone see the problem with the above statement? You need to think like a corrupt "Scholar".

We cannot have folks believing that the most intimate details of DNA were in the Bible thousands of years before their discovery now can we?

That would be proof of God, or at the very least, proof of an extremely advanced intelligence at a time when the "Scholars" tell us there was not.

Oops! You are all busted for thinking dangerous thoughts that the Bible was inspired by God and not written by Man.

What are you talking about?

 

[Base12]

What are you talking about?

Try proving God's existence in a secular forum and watch what happens.

 

[TheLightWithin]

Try proving God's existence in a secular forum and watch what happens.

in a secular forum

Why would you do that?

 

[iBrian]

I have spent years going down this rabbit hole and have been attacked, shadow banned, censored, you name it. You can see how so many anti-Trinitarians not only have trouble with basic comprehension skills, but they are extremely 'cult like' in the manner they defend their position. It is as if they are possessed or something. They refuse to be corrected. I have seen this mindset grow over the last two decades. Something is not right with them.

Let's try and stay focused on the topic, rather than outright condemnation of different opinions, please.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Body = Person
Soul = Person
Spirit = Person

They are Three, yet they are One.

So easy, a Caveman could understand it.

I doubt it .. they might be able to draw an illustration in some fashion..
..but even I can't understand it, and I don't think I'm a caveman.

The above would mean that body = soul = spirit .. errrr, no.

 

[Base12]

John 1:1 it is affirms that Jesus is the Logos, present with God, and indeed was God.

The above referenced verse settles any debate...

John 1:1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Clearly there are three unique individual entities being described. Case closed.

 

[Thomas]

What is it about these ideas that distinguish the theology from tritheism?

One God, not three gods.

 

[Thomas]

What is it about subordinationism then that would be regarded as definitively wrong?

The issue with subordinationism occurs when one declares that, in this instance, Father, Son and Holy Spirit are God.

If that is so, and the Son is subordinate to the Father, and the Holy Spirit is (perhaps) subordinate to both, then you have distinctions in the Godhead. The Father is God, but is a superior God to the Deity who is Son, and so on... so you end up with either tritheism, of some order of demigod, a 'God but not quite as God as' situation, which leads to all manner of subsequent questions ...

An analogy might be that both my father and I are human beings. In a normal relationship, I am 'subordinate' to my father, but that is by relation, not by essence. We are both human beings, and we are both 100% human – my father's human-ness is not more or greater than mine.

The shift from the subordinate to the equal – a sameness and equality with regard to divinity – emerged as theologians pondered the questions of the relations within and between the Three Persons.

contradiction? If not, how not? If so, how resolved?

Why does it not? On the face of it it seems to.

It's a given that God is not a composite – God is not composed of different categories of things, which composites are. If God is a composite, why and how is this bit different to that, and where did they come from, and to be different means they must be subject to different things ... how are the distinct things in God ordered, and by whom?

In the 6th century BC the Greek philosopher Anaximander proposed the apeiron. He held the 'ultimate reality' – arche – is eternal and infinite; that it is boundless (apeiron), subject neither to age nor decay, increase or decrease, and so on, from which everything we can perceive is derived.

Everything emerges from apeiron – the infinite, the boundless, the indeterminate – via arche which is logos, implying order, principle, and so on, which gives all manifesting realities their essence and form, their natures, qualities and characters. Everything is caused to be from apeiron and its way of being determined by arche; in time everything returns, goes back to apeiron.

Aperion has its philosophical equivalent in concepts such as the 'primal chaos', 'the void' or 'the abyss'.

In scriptural terms, in the creation myths of the Near East, the primordial world is described formless and empty, a watery abyss, the 'darkness on the face of the deep' (Genesis 1:2) The Babylonian Enuma Elish describes something similar to Genesis. In the Hindu cosmogony the initial state of the universe is an absolute darkness.

"The Dao that cannot be spoken" is this.

 

[Thomas]

Well, that is the problem .. people all have differing explanations..

They offer different analogies as approaches to understanding the same thing.

..with perhaps the majority, deciding it's a 'mystery'.

Because it's a given that God transcends our understanding ... is Allah in Himself not a mystery?