What evidence would you accept?

[TheLightWithin]

Is four billion years long enough to result in a blue whale with a hundred thousand trillion cells

Yes.

 

[TheLightWithin]

From birth to death it would have to grow at an average speed of a thousand trillion cells every year. Or over two trillion cells every day for a hundred years.

I don't understand what you mean.
Or what you are concluding... or the case you are making.
I think you are skipping some steps?

 

[TheLightWithin]

If you already believe in any of the above, what is the evidence you currently accept?

(so many possible answers)

The evidence is derived from the philosophical critique of my convictions.

Which implies first you had the convictions, then you critiqued them, then the results of the critiques exist as evidence

The convictions came first... from some source
Then the philosophical critique... concluded ... the convictions were somewhere on the continuum from definitely right, to at least not impossible?

What I was meaning to say here was what I said more clearly just above - it sounds like you're saying you had convictions of some kind- my follow up questions should have been where did they initial convictions come from - and then you critiqued your convictions and something about the critique served as evidence of the very thing it critiqued... if you have a for-instance example I'm interested.

Generally, I'd agree, but then I have heard accounts of 'conversion', of convictions changing in the face of some experience or insight ... ?

Well, kind of my point - the convictions come from somewhere.
When I said "the convictions came first" I was being rhetorical - like "really, did the convictions really come first?"

I guess what I'm looking for is the thought process - how people arrived at their convictions, what do they base them on?

 

[EricPH]

The theory of evolution seems to ignore design and mathematics. A blue whale has around a hundred thousand trillion cells and the whales has a life span of a hundred years. Mathematically, this means from birth to death a whale would have to grow at an average speed of a thousand trillion cells every year. Or over two trillion cells every day for a hundred years. The journey starts from zero, it would have to produce a zygote, then end up with a hundred thousand trillion cells.

It would be like producing two trillion jigsaw pieces of a whale and assembling them, every day for a hundred years. At the end you would have a 3D jigsaw of a whale. The speed and complexity do not sit well with any random process.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Evidence is information that points to something, proof is something more conclusive or irrefutable.

I see its is relative, as people can and do easily refute the truth even when the evidence and proofs are supplied.

That is our free will at play. All Gods Messengers have been refuted when they are the source of our being, and the source of all truth to humanity.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Not make, but convince, possibly?

You could argue that these constitute a form of evidence... but are they proof?
(Evidence being information that points to something, proof being conclusive or irrefutable.)

Well.... um... doesn't anybody besides messengers get anything more direct?
Do you understand why the knowledge of G-d has to come via other humans?
In such a way that it is always possible to argue that revelation and religion are just human thought?

One can only share the Word of God, some do that better than others, but in the end, it is a gift we have to accept, and before we accept, we have to be open to consider the proofs and evidences with an unbiased mind.

Such as Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God".

Jesus, His life and the Bible are irrefutable proof of Christ. That we can refute this is Good and Evil at play. We have the potential of the Good and have freewill to choose the light, or remain in darkness.

Only the Messengers share what is from God, God is unknowable and unapproachable, outside of creation. The Messengers are all we know of God

John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

The "Self of God" for us, is the Messengers and they one and all reflect tye attributes of God to humanity. No Messengers or human knows the Essence of God.

Regards Tony

 

[Thomas]

All Gods Messengers have been refuted when they are the source of our being, and the source of all truth to humanity.

I'd offer a caution there ... prophets are a source of truth, or perhaps, more concisely, oracles of revelation – but anybody can voice the truth, "out of the mouths of babes and children" (Psalm 8:2) – but prophets and messengers are not the source of our being, I would argue God alone is that.

 

[Thomas]

Only the Messengers share what is from God, God is unknowable and unapproachable, outside of creation. The Messengers are all we know of God

Maybe in your paradigm, but not in the Christian one.

John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

And the Son declares Him everywhere and eternally, to all those with an open heart to listen and receive, and their witness has been passed on to us, so I'm afraid on that evidence, I do not accept that God is unknowable, unapproachable, or outside creation.

Were that so, then there would be no discourse between ourselves and God, no prayer and no blessing, no prophet nor messenger.

God is immanent in creation – there is nowhere that God is not – and by that same token God is immanent to the soul.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

I'd offer a caution there ... prophets are a source of truth, or perhaps, more concisely, oracles of revelation – but anybody can voice the truth, "out of the mouths of babes and children" (Psalm 8:2) – but prophets and messengers are not the source of our being, I would argue God alone is that.

When I say the messengers are the source of our being, it is also acknowledged that God is the source of all creation.

I see we are created of the "Word of God", to which the Manifestations bring in each "Day of God". They one are all pre-existent in the "Holy Spirit", but the Baha'i revelation has introduced "The Most Great Spirit", to which generates the "Holy Spirit" and I am still meditating of this aspect of knowledge.

In this way, they are the source of our being, but God is the source of "The Most Great" and "Holy Spirit"

Baháʼu'lláh states that the Holy Spirit is generated by the Most Great Spirit. Specifically, in the Súriy-i-Haykal (Tablet of the Temple), Baháʼu'lláh writes: "Say: The Holy Spirit Itself hath been generated through the agency of a single letter revealed by this Most Great Spirit, if ye be of them that comprehend".

This being the "Day of God", I see promised in the Bible, gives cause for reflection.

This is a current discussion in a thread in the Baha'i Forum, I have linked it below if you wish to see the conversation, it is very interesting, but I am not yet seeing what the OP poster is offering.

Shall we become like gods?

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Maybe in your paradigm, but not in the Christian one

That is understandable. I see the Trinity was formulated in an attempt to explain the station of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ said I have more to say unto you. I see Baha'u'llah has given us another level of contemplation, in the station of the "Father", the Most Great Spirit!

And the Son declares Him everywhere and eternally, to all those with an open heart to listen and receive, and their witness has been passed on to us, so I'm afraid on that evidence, I do not accept that God is unknowable, unapproachable, or outside creation.

Were that so, then there would be no discourse between ourselves and God, no prayer and no blessing, no prophet nor messenger.

God is immanent in creation – there is nowhere that God is not – and by that same token God is immanent to the soul.

I currently see we know God only by the attributes, that are the essence of the Holy Spirit, thus we attribute them to God, but the attributes do not define the Essence of God for us. The Essence of God is what is unknowable, even the Messengers do not know the Essence of God, as we are part of creation and the created cannot know the Essence of the Creator.

Abdu'l-Baha explains this as the painting cannot know the artist, but the painting contains the attributes of the artist.

It's a great topic and I see the Bible offers this level of contemplation, such as this verse.

John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him."

Now another level of contemplation, as for me, in that passage I see it is Baha'u'llah as the Father "the "Most Great Spirit" and Jesus said "the Father is greater than I.

Yet I see no distinction between Jesus Christ and Baha'u'llah, nor any of the Messengers, they are all given of God.

Regards Tony

 

[Thomas]

When I say the messengers are the source of our being, it is also acknowledged that God is the source of all creation.

OK. In our paradigm, there is no intermediary in creation – it's all from God.

I see we are created of the "Word of God", to which the Manifestations bring in each "Day of God".

Again, our paradigms differ. Jesus is, for us, the 'Incarnate Word', although the Greek is Logos, in regard to which, the Latin verbum, from which 'word' derives, offers limited access to the full implication of the meaning of Logos.

Baháʼu'lláh states that the Holy Spirit is generated by the Most Great Spirit.

OK. For us, the Holy Spirit is God, not 'generated', but 'proceeds from' God.

This being the "Day of God", I see promised in the Bible, gives cause for reflection.

You'd have to give me a reference for that. I'm assuming the Parousia (Last Judgement/Second Coming).

This is a current discussion in a thread in the Baha'i Forum, I have linked it below if you wish to see the conversation, it is very interesting, but I am not yet seeing what the OP poster is offering.

This seems to be discussion theosis? A Christian Tradition.

 

[wil]

I saw something in passing that I thought appropriate to this thread....paraphrased.

It would take similar evidence for me to believe what you believe as it would for you to believe what I believe.

Akin to the atheist only believes in just one less G!d than the Abrahamic.

 

[Thomas]

That is understandable. I see the Trinity was formulated in an attempt to explain the station of Jesus Christ.

That's more Christology than Trinity.

The Trinity explains the relation of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, both in relation to the world (the Economic Trinity, from οἰκονομία, oikonomia, meaning something like "household management") and in their relations to each other (the Theological or Ontological Trinity).

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

OK. In our paradigm, there is no intermediary in creation – it's all from God.


Again, our paradigms differ. Jesus is, for us, the 'Incarnate Word', although the Greek is Logos, in regard to which, the Latin verbum, from which 'word' derives, offers limited access to the full implication of the meaning of Logos.


OK. For us, the Holy Spirit is God, not 'generated', but 'proceeds from' God.


You'd have to give me a reference for that. I'm assuming the Parousia (Last Judgement/Second Coming).


This seems to be discussion theosis? A Christian Tradition.

I understand that perspective, but all that has to pass over a simple verse we find in the Bible.

1 Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus".

The "Day of God" or "Day of the Lord" is a reoccurring theme, such as

Zephaniah 1:14-18

Isaiah 13:9-11

It will the the "Lord of Hosts" that fulfills this

Jeremiah 46:10 "For this is the day of the Lord God of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord God of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates".

Baha'u'llah is known in the Baha'i Faith as that "Lord of Hosts", that is why it is the promised "Day of God".

John 14:19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

So many ways to present this "Day of God".

the Annointed (Christ) Jesus as the Son has shown himself in the Father, Baha'u'llah.

I do understand this is not what many Christians will see, at this time. I see those times are changing.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

That's more Christology than Trinity.

The Trinity explains the relation of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, both in relation to the world (the Economic Trinity, from οἰκονομία, oikonomia, meaning something like "household management") and in their relations to each other (the Theological or Ontological Trinity).

My posts was another way to see it, a differnt frame of reference.

I see God has given that new frame of reference and warned us via Muhammad in the Quran about how the trinity would become a stumbling block.

4:171 "O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, “Three”; desist – it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs."

I do understand that the Quran is not Gods Word, but as a Baha'i, it is for us. So this enables us to consider new frames of references.

Regards Tony

 

[Thomas]

I understand that perspective, but all that has to pass over a simple verse we find in the Bible.
1 Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus".

Exactly. That being the case, why anyone would expect Christians to look elsewhere is beyond me – there is one Father, one Son, and one Holy Spirit.

+++

The "Day of God" or "Day of the Lord" is a reoccurring theme ...

... relating to the Last Judgement.

Baha'u'llah is known in the Baha'i Faith as that "Lord of Hosts", that is why it is the promised "Day of God".

The "Lord of Hosts" in the Hebrew Scriptures refers to God alone.

John 14:19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

It is texts like these that, to my mind, flatly contradict the Baha'i thesis that human can only know God indirectly and through intermediaries, and the best one can aspire to is a kind of moral allegiance, rather than mystical union.

I see no evidence of a theology of sanctification, rather, I see a refutation of everything Christ promised.

 

[Thomas]

My posts was another way to see it, a differnt frame of reference.

A different paradigm, as I said.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Exactly. That being the case, why anyone would expect Christians to look elsewhere is beyond me – there is one Father, one Son, and one Holy Spirit

That was because it was applicable to the age Thomas, all the Messengers are the only way in the age they give tye Message, but they all tell of one that will come after them.

Jesus told us of the return of Christ (another Annointed One)

All the Messengers are One in the Holy Spirit.

These verses then make sense.

First in Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

We must accept a new name, which is annointed with the same Spirit, we must overcome.

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Then verse 13 "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches".

Thus a new name, with the same spirit that gives a message to the Churches.

There is ample passages in support of this, this is but a snippet.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Exactly. That being the case, why anyone would expect Christians to look elsewhere is beyond me – there is one Father, one Son, and one Holy Spirit.

+++


... relating to the Last Judgement.


The "Lord of Hosts" in the Hebrew Scriptures refers to God alone.


It is texts like these that, to my mind, flatly contradict the Baha'i thesis that human can only know God indirectly and through intermediaries, and the best one can aspire to is a kind of moral allegiance, rather than mystical union.

I see no evidence of a theology of sanctification, rather, I see a refutation of everything Christ promised.

I see It becomes an understanding of this verse

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, ‘I go away and come again unto you.’ If ye loved Me, ye would rejoice because I said, ‘I go unto the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I.

The Son returned as the Father, as the "Glory of God".

Thomas, the time of great change as foretold in the Bible and Baha'i scriptures is fast approaching. The 3rd world conflict (which has been foretold in Baha'i Writings) has no doubt commenced. Its duration is not known, but we have been told it will end with a catastrophic calamity. If we read between the lines and also consider what some pilgrims have recorded, this catastrophe will most likely be nuclear.

Oil was foretold to be the goal.

Basically, the world will not change until this calamity visits us, from whatever source it will be. The Baha'i Faith will only emerge out of obscurity, after this event, as what is left of the world builds a lesser peace. The greater opposition to the Baha'i Faith will come at this time, when religious orthodoxy sees its influence, just as they saw its influence in Persia upon its birth.

I tell you this now, as all that we have done in peace to unite humamity, has not been embraced by the broader population and I would hope you remain a friend, even in our different frames of references.

May Christ be with us always.

Regards Tony

 

[Thomas]

Hi, Tony —

That was because it was applicable to the age Thomas...

Matthew 28:20
"... and see: I am with you every day until the consummation of the age (aion)."
The 'consummation of the age' is the Last of Judgement, an eschatalogical event yet to come to pass, until then, we are in this age (aion).

So on that basis I see 'the age' in which we live as ending at the Last Judgement.

At a deeper level, Revelation is an irruption of the timeless into time, so does not suffer any temporal determination, and is complete and entire unto itself, so requires no addition or augmentation. The Divine Word is true always and everywhere.

Having said that, as a source of spiritual in-spiration, the well-spring never runs dry.

I would suggest a guided reading through John 4, the Samaritan woman at the well, that points to this deeper meaning.

all the Messengers are the only way in the age they give tye Message, but they all tell of one that will come after them.

And the one Christ speaks of, whom He will send, and who will bear witness to Him, is the Holy Spirit, who, like Christ, is not simply a 'messenger'.

The biblical idea of 'messenger' is an angel. The Baha'i tend to lump all the Messengers together, which clearly, it seems to me, in their own terms they are not, so I find this 'messengers' metaphgysically and ontologically confused.

Jesus told us of the return of Christ (another Annointed One)

No – He told of the sending of the Spirit, another advocate (parakletos), not another Christ (christos).

All the Messengers are One in the Holy Spirit.

And humanity is one in the Holy Spirit.

We believe that one-ness is more a mystical unity than moral observance.

A guided reading through John 14 would be apposite here.

These verses then make sense.

They never did not make sense.

It's rather that some choose to read them a particular way. Whether that is the way they are intended to be read is another matter.