Christian God = Saddam Hussein

foundationist

foundationist

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This isn't intended to be insulting - I usually have a dynamically neutral position towards Christianity. But there's an important Atheist objection to the whole "salvation plan" which I suddenly thought of in the context of the recent conflict, while watching the news recently. I hope the following helps illustrate better the objection:

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1/ Adam defied God, therefore he was punished with death. >>> If you defied Saddam Hussein, you would likely be punished with death.

2/ Those who remain in defiance of God will be imprisoned and tortured >>> Those who remain alive and in defiance of Saddam Hussein would be imprisoned and tortured.

3/ God demands obedience or death >>> Saddam Hussein demanded obedience, or death.

4/ God so loved his people that he died for their sins. >>> Saddam Hussein so loved the Iraqi people...

Therefore is the popular Christian perception of God one of a supernatural Saddam Hussein?

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This isn't meant to be a slur against Christianity. But the thought occurred to me that the general Atheist argument against the general Christian perception of God was somehow illustrated by making a direct analogy to someone reviled.

Any thoughts? I wondered how people may counter the objections.
 
Its a good jod Saddam doesn't have the ability to set plagues upon his people like the Christian God - Oh hang on, yeah he does, that's our whole excuse for war (Biological warfare). You may have a point.

Btw - have you seen South Park the movie, if Saddam is God, does that mean .. .. .. UUURRRGGHHH, that's complex.
 
The comparison is more than a little unfair and I am disppointed that you posted it. Yes it does shows the ridiculous nature of fundamentalism but please do not tar all Christians with the same brush. We're not all bad you know.
 
Sorry Dave and all - I realised that it was illustrative of a common atheist reaction against Christian doctrine. I did not intend to imply that Divinity is evil, nor suggest Christianity as evil.
 
Point taken. From yourself it would have been quite a surprising sentiment. I apperciate now what you were trying to convey. Unfortunately I have no truck with hardcore atheists. Their belief system is essentially centered upon disproving Christianity rather than dis-believing Divinity. They are usually quite incapable of arguing outside of Christian dogma and their own.
 
I wrote a similar (although better, hehehe, kidding) parallel between the anti-Christ of the Old Testament (archetype of evil) and Jesus. As a Christian I only wrote it show how flawed simplistic apologetics can be. Would I offend anyone if I made a thread posting the outline?
 
No problem - sounds like a good dsicussion starter - feel free to post it. :)
 
There's a problem with the identity of the Christian God if you are a Gnostic Christian as we Gnostics do not hold with notion of the god of Israel being God Most High. There are two Genesis accounts and one can see a major difference in the deities encountered in them. It takes some research but the historical facts bear out the Johannine school that took such offence to the god of the Jews. Jews are worshipping Yahweh as EL Elyon, God Most High when Yahweh was a Son of EL Elyon and never possessed EL's wisdom or compassion, being a lower tribal war god of the Israelites, while EL presided over the Divine Assembly as God Most High.

The history of the traditional Abrahamic religions is the history of peoples following lower war gods as God Most High. We see the results--millions of dead bodies with no end in sight as long as these war gods are worshipped, Yahweh, Christ as Yahweh's Son, and Allah as an Arabic makeover of Yahweh.
Only when EL is restored as God Most High will the Abrahamic faiths again worship the God they all claim. Of course major changes will have to occur as ancient EL came with His wife, Asherah, the Tree of Life, probably where He learned wisdom and compassion..

In any event, EL is not Yahweh or Allah in character and those who would follow the teachings of Christ follow EL's character as the true Father. That is why John's Jesus' claims no one comes to the Father save through Jesus Christ as Jesus knew who his true heavenly Father was: EL Elyon, the Father of Humanity.
 
sorry, syzygy, but that is the purest prejudice. don't presume to tell me Who i am or are not worshipping. "lower war gods", forsooth. what arrogance and dismissiveness. le'havdil, but your whole post is the equivalent of saying that if i call my mum by her first name instead of "mum", or call her "my father's wife", then she is three different people.

feel free to "take offence to the G!D of the jews" but be aware of how that is usually in effect taking offence to the jews themselves. i dare say i am justified in saying that your opinions on my religion are nothing but hatemongering racism, for i fail to see how else they could be construed.

bananabrain
 
bananabrain said:
sorry, syzygy, but that is the purest prejudice. don't presume to tell me Who i am or are not worshipping. "lower war gods", forsooth. what arrogance and dismissiveness. le'havdil, but your whole post is the equivalent of saying that if i call my mum by her first name instead of "mum", or call her "my father's wife", then she is three different people.

feel free to "take offence to the G!D of the jews" but be aware of how that is usually in effect taking offence to the jews themselves. i dare say i am justified in saying that your opinions on my religion are nothing but hatemongering racism, for i fail to see how else they could be construed.

bananabrain
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Bananabrain,

If my opinions are based on "purest prejudice" then I guess Israeli archeologists themselves, historians researching the Ugarit Canaanite texts, and those verses in Deuteronomy and the Psalms all of which show the true relationship of EL Elyon as God Most High and Yahweh as His son, are all based on "pure prejudice".

I am of Jewish descent [admin edit: pointless personal insult removed - simple point: syzygy isn't practicing]. If I am wrong in my assessment of historical facts about Judaism show me where. I believe I have gone deeper into the Jewish historical record to form my opinions than you who still are enthralled with Jewish mythologies taken as if they were historical facts.
 
Syzygy seems at odds with the admin. here, but even so, in his defense, your irk goes all the way back to Marcion who first defined the theology of the lesser creator God as evil. The lesser creator God being Yahweh.

I won't go into all the problems that gnostic approach creates (not the least of which is polytheism).
 
fair enough, but marcion ain't posting here. and i agree with you about the gnostic approach, which requires a healthy injection of paradox to maintain. of course the kabbalists were past masters of this, not that it stops people accusing them of polytheism occasionally.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
Ah - now I didn't realise that it was Marcion that was the source for that. :)

What's particularly interesting about Marcion is that - so far as I'm aware - he's the first source for what eventually comes to be known as the Gospel of Luke and Acts.
 
I guess Israeli archeologists themselves, historians researching the Ugarit Canaanite texts, and those verses in Deuteronomy and the Psalms all of which show the true relationship of EL Elyon as God Most High and Yahweh as His son, are all based on "pure prejudice".
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amazingly enough, the traditional commentators all seem to have overlooked the possibility that this relationship might exist. they must all be completely stupid and criminally ignorant, i dare say. as for ugaritic texts, they are canaanite, not jewish, so they can say what they like and i would expect them to confirm the local idolatry. israeli archaeologists are still archaeologists, which means that they get judged on their scientific and historical insights; they're not necessarily concerned with respect for tradition and religious belief. given the state of relations between religious and secular jews in israel, prejudice on both sides is the order of the day - but that is not my issue. my issue is the need of people like yourself to delegitimise and demonise me in order for you to feel better about yourself.

I am of Jewish descent
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so was torquemada. what's your point? none so zealous to destroy as the disappointed. you have a lot to learn about dialogue - but not much about making offensive generalisations, apparently.

If I am wrong in my assessment of historical facts about Judaism show me where.
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i would say it is up to you to give some evidence that your comments about "jews are worshipping...etc" are actually correct. you have made a statement about what my theological beliefs are as a traditional jew. i am telling you that my theological beliefs are not the ones you state - and i think i am more capable than you are of knowing what i believe, since i know the inside of my head better than you do. you could just as easily say that i am "really" worshipping a big purple dinosaur - again, the onus is on you to give some evidence that i am directing my worship towards it, when i do not consider myself to be doing so.

you who still are enthralled with Jewish mythologies taken as if they were historical facts.
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your words. i'm not taking them as "historical facts", but as religious beliefs. the two have a complicated relationship and important distinctions; and, furthermore, i don't see why historical facts are the standard by which "mythologies" should be judged. do i go down to the post office and give them a hard time for not having a kosher kitchen?

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
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