Catholic Mystery

[Thomas]

Catholic doctrine says:
"If any one say that in Divine Revelation there are contained no mysteries properly so called, but that through reason rightly developed all the dogmas of faith can be understood and demonstrated from natural principles: let him be anathema"

This teaching is explicit in Scripture. The principal proof text is 1 Corinthians 2:6-10

Howbeit we speak wisdom among the perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, neither of the princes of this world that come to nought; But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, a wisdom which is hidden, which God ordained before the world, unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew; for if they had known it, they would never have crucified the Lord of glory. But, as it is written: That eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither hath it entered into the heart of man, what things God hath prepared for them that love him. But to us God hath revealed them, by this Spirit. For the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God."

Shorter passages, eg. Ephesians 3:4-9; Colossians 1:26-27; Romans 11:33-36, Matthew 11:25-27; John 1:17-18 speak of a mystery of God, namely, the designs of Divine Providence and the inner life of the Godhead.

Today people interpret mystery in the secular sense, an event or situation or a truth that can be arrived at by reason alone, by good "detective work" or by new technologies or scientific theories, but this is not how the Church interprets the term. There is a much older, deeper meaning being used here. One has to go back to the root, and the translation of the term to find the real meaning of Mystery in a Catholic sense. To us, 'mystery' means something that can be known only by Divine Revelation, something beyond human cognisance and thus must be accepted with faith because reason alone cannot determine it with certitude.

For the Catholic then, the mysteries do not indicate a distance from God, that is a given, man is more unlike God than he is anything else, and yet God is closer to man than anything else. By mystery we mean that God reaches out to us in a way we could never and can never reach out to Him, from His being — which is beyond being — to our being, through the Holy Spirit.

The Catholic Mysteries then do not compose a body of knowledge, but an engagement in a way of being that is beyond our own capacities and potential, by a process we call 'filiation' or 'theosis', the adoption of man by grace.

+++

Matthias Scheeben, in his "The Mysteries of Christianity" shows a mystical cosmos whose parts are united in theophanic harmony. Scheeben seeks to show the internal communication of Divine life in the Trinity, as the principle not only of communication of Itself to the creature in the Divine life of grace and glory, but also the principle of all communication as such. The knowledge of the supernatural is more excellent than any human wisdom, because through its foundation on the word of God it possesses a greater degree of certitude. The obscurity which surrounds the mysteries of faith results from the weakness of the human intellect, which, like the eye that gazes on the sun, is blinded by the fulness of light.

Since all truth is from God, there can be no real warfare between reason and revelation, or faith and science. Supernatural mysteries as such cannot be demonstrated by reason, but the Christian apologist can always show that the arguments against their possibility are not conclusive (Aquinas "Suppl. Boeth. de trinitate", Q2, a3, "Summa Theologicae", Q1). The nature of God which is infinite and eternal, must be incomprehensible to an intelligence that is not capable of perfect knowledge.

That science cannot solve all the mysteries of indicates the limitation of the human intellect. Human reason however, is able to recognise the distinctive 'mysteriousness' of a supernatural truth, and can to some extent shed light on the obscurity by means of analogy and the fittingness of the mystery by reasons of congruity. This was done with great success by the Fathers and the Scholastic theologians, and has not been matched in the modern era

Thomas

 

[soleil10]

Catholic doctrine says:
"If any one say that in Divine Revelation there are contained no mysteries properly so called, but that through reason rightly developed all the dogmas of faith can be understood and demonstrated from natural principles: let him be anathema"

To us, 'mystery' means something that can be known only by Divine Revelation, something beyond human cognisance and thus must be accepted with faith because reason alone cannot determine it with certitude.

I agree that through divine revelation truth can be brought out to light.
I also believe that through human cognizance, reason, intuition, love and emotion divine revelation is verified.

Jesus said that he could not reveal everything when he came but a time will come when he will.

Are you open or expecting more divine revelation to come ?

Since all truth is from God, there can be no real warfare between reason and revelation, or faith and science.

I agree

Supernatural mysteries as such cannot be demonstrated by reason, but the Christian apologist can always show that the arguments against their possibility are not conclusive (Aquinas "Suppl. Boeth. de trinitate", Q2, a3, "Summa Theologicae", Q1). The nature of God which is infinite and eternal, must be incomprehensible to an intelligence that is not capable of perfect knowledge.

We can know a lot about God's nature and His heart. We can always know more for eternity.
I do not agree when you say God must be incomprehensible. I do not believe that it is God idea to be incomprehensible.

What is perfect knowledge since knowledge is unlimited ?

That science cannot solve all the mysteries of indicates the limitation of the human intellect. Human reason however, is able to recognise the distinctive 'mysteriousness' of a supernatural truth, and can to some extent shed light on the obscurity by means of analogy and the fittingness of the mystery by reasons of congruity. This was done with great success by the Fathers and the Scholastic theologians, and has not been matched in the modern era

God sends prophets that are often rejected the same way Jesus was.
God's Divine revelation is often rejected by those who are the most knowlegeable and in authority.
God's Divine revelation is on earth for a long time before it is finally received. It took 400 years for Xstianity to be officially recognized.

 

[Thomas]

Hi Soleil — sorry to be so late on this.

Are you open or expecting more divine revelation to come?

No — rather the fulfillment of all that has been promised. How that 'reveals' itself is another matter, but we do not expect anything that has not already been spoken of.

I do not agree when you say God must be incomprehensible. I do not believe that it is God idea to be incomprehensible.

But that would require the human intellect to be the equal of God, to comprehend God.

What is perfect knowledge since knowledge is unlimited ?

Ah! That's gnosis in the Christian sense. Christian gnosis is not knowledge.

God sends prophets that are often rejected the same way Jesus was.

Jesus was not rejected by all.

God's Divine revelation is on earth for a long time before it is finally received. It took 400 years for Xstianity to be officially recognized.

By which time the numbers of Christians were counted in millions. Christianity does not need 'official recognition', that just makes life easier, that's all.

Thomas

 

[soleil10]

Hi Soleil — sorry to be so late on this.

No problem

No — rather the fulfillment of all that has been promised. How that 'reveals' itself is another matter, but we do not expect anything that has not already been spoken of.

How do you interpret ? John 16-12 "I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear".

When Jesus came, he did not just repeat what was in the old testament but elevated humanity to a higher understanding . For me John16-12 means, deeper understanding, higher truth, new revelations will come.

Jesus was not rejected by all.

I understand what you are saying. Nevertheless Jesus was rejected by those who were prepared to receive him. His life was a life of suffering and rejection. From his birth in a manger, his rejection by his own brothers and sisters who thought he was crasy all the way to the cross where he was killed and crucified. After his ressurection, he gathered his disciples who had run away. Many followed his course through martyrdom for spreading the gospel.

After the fall of A&E, the crucifixion of Jesus broke God's heart again.

The cross of Jesus stands as one of the most ostensibly paradoxical symbols. Tragedy and triumph, misery and joy, humiliation and exaltation are all encountered at Calvary’s cross.

When Jesus was lifted up, the compelling reason to become a believer in Christ was established. Whereas the dynamics of salvation were set in motion from the day he rose and sealed on the day of Pentecost, the most compelling reason to come to Christ was established on the day he was nailed to the cross: Jesus died for me.

“God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son. . .” Through the cross, God declares the true value He finds in each person. God offered his beloved Son as a ransom for all.

While Satan uses his power to kill, God uses His power to bring the dead to life. As compensation for Satan's exercise of his maximum power in killing Jesus, God exercised His maximum power and resurrected Jesus. God thus opened the way for all humanity to be engrafted with the resurrected Jesus and thereby receive salvation and rebirth.


After he was crucified, Jesus appeared to two of his followers on the road to Emmaus. He inquired as to the reason for their apparent sadness and dismay. They answered that they had “hoped” that he was the one who was going to “redeem Israel,” indicating that the experience of the cross, for them, was the demise of those hopes they had placed in Jesus.

Jesus scolded them and asserted plainly, “ought Christ not to suffer these things in order to enter into his glory? . . .and then beginning with Moses and all the prophets he showed them the things concerning himself.” (Luke 24:13-27)

It is reasonable to conclude, as have many generations of Bible scholars, that Jesus’ only purpose was accomplished at the cross. It is reasonable, but it is not the complete picture of Jesus’ purpose.

Christ’s reluctance toward that thorny path is clearly observed in his tearful prayer in Gethsemane. “Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.” (Luke 22:42)

What could be the cause of that reluctance and sorrow? In my view, Jesus was not expressing mere trepidation toward the pain and suffering of the approaching cross. He was, instead, expressing sorrow in having to close the door on a greater good intended by God: the plan to establish the new heaven and new earth in the Jerusalem of Jesus’ day.

The prophet Isaiah had declared that Jerusalem would be the central locale of that great transition (Isaiah 65:17). However, there was one caveat. God had also proclaimed through the prophet Jeremiah that “if at any time I declare that a kingdom is to be built up or a nation established but those people do evil in my sight, I will not carry out the plan that I had intended.” (Jeremiah 18:7-10).

Thus when Jesus began his mission by declaring, unequivocally, that “now is the time. . .the Kingdom is at hand,” he was, in fact, speaking to a purpose that God intended to accomplish at that time.

That is why, upon the faithless response of the people, Jesus was so deeply heart broken. “When he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it, and said, ‘if you, even you, had only known what on this day would bring you peace.’” (Luke 19:41) He knew the “intended” destiny of Jerusalem was that a “new heaven and new earth” would be established there with Jesus, the new Adam, as its central figure and King.

 

[Bishadi]

So Thomas are you 'anti christ'?

You state you believe nothing more is coming.

Then you do not believe the christ is coming.

which would mean you have 'given up' which is a direct contrast to

For the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God."

you suggest, there is no more to learn.

Since all truth is from God, there can be no real warfare between reason and revelation, or faith and science.

so until ALL is understood, than everything is still 'less than' revealed

that is what the 'christ' ........ the final truth ......... the revelations,

the combining of mankind, the foundation of world Peace

the core hope within beliefs is the promise of 'truth'

but the complacent just don't see that scope and lie about 'their' opinions with NO intent of contributing or representing with honesty over beliefs.

You point out what makes a religious teacher corrupt! They lost hope!

 

[Thomas]

Hi Soleil —

How do you interpret ? John 16:12 "I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear".

Read on:
"But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth. For he shall not speak of himself; but what things soever he shall hear, he shall speak; and the things that are to come, he shall shew you. He shall glorify me; because he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it to you."
John 16:13-14.

The "Spirit of truth" is the Holy Spirit:
"And I will ask the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever. The spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, nor knoweth him: but you shall know him; because he shall abide with you, and shall be in you."
John 14:16-17.

"But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you. (John 14:26)

The Spirit of truth, the Holy Spirit, descended on the disciples at Pentecost (50 days after the Crucifixion) as detailed in Acts 2.

I understand you, too, but would argue that He was not rejected by the disciples, nor the magdalene, nor His mother, nor Joseph of Arimethea ... they didn't understand, but they did not reject.

After the fall of A&E, the crucifixion of Jesus broke God's heart again.

I think that's sentimentalism. The Son was sent by the Father and there could be no other outcome than the Cross. Only through death canHe overcome death.

+++

Christ’s reluctance toward that thorny path is clearly observed in his tearful prayer in Gethsemane...

What could be the cause of that reluctance and sorrow? In my view, Jesus was not expressing mere trepidation toward the pain and suffering of the approaching cross. He was, instead, expressing sorrow in having to close the door on a greater good intended by God: the plan to establish the new heaven and new earth in the Jerusalem of Jesus’ day.

Interesting thesis.

I read a different mystery ... Christ's confession in the garden is the confession of all our prayers ... it is the cry of all humanity. His acceptance of the Cup is absolutely crucial.

There were no witnesses to this event, the three He took with him 'slept' through it ... so the story is revealed through the Holy Spirit ... had Christ followed his human will at this point, there would be no via dolorosa.

Thus when Jesus began his mission by declaring, unequivocally, that “now is the time. . .the Kingdom is at hand,” he was, in fact, speaking to a purpose that God intended to accomplish at that time.

I read it that He is the Kingdom.

Thomas

 

[Nick_A]

Catholic doctrine says:
"If any one say that in Divine Revelation there are contained no mysteries properly so called, but that through reason rightly developed all the dogmas of faith can be understood and demonstrated from natural principles: let him be anathema"

This teaching is explicit in Scripture. The principal proof text is 1 Corinthians 2:6-10

Shorter passages, eg. Ephesians 3:4-9; Colossians 1:26-27; Romans 11:33-36, Matthew 11:25-27; John 1:17-18 speak of a mystery of God, namely, the designs of Divine Providence and the inner life of the Godhead.

Today people interpret mystery in the secular sense, an event or situation or a truth that can be arrived at by reason alone, by good "detective work" or by new technologies or scientific theories, but this is not how the Church interprets the term. There is a much older, deeper meaning being used here. One has to go back to the root, and the translation of the term to find the real meaning of Mystery in a Catholic sense. To us, 'mystery' means something that can be known only by Divine Revelation, something beyond human cognisance and thus must be accepted with faith because reason alone cannot determine it with certitude.

For the Catholic then, the mysteries do not indicate a distance from God, that is a given, man is more unlike God than he is anything else, and yet God is closer to man than anything else. By mystery we mean that God reaches out to us in a way we could never and can never reach out to Him, from His being — which is beyond being — to our being, through the Holy Spirit.

The Catholic Mysteries then do not compose a body of knowledge, but an engagement in a way of being that is beyond our own capacities and potential, by a process we call 'filiation' or 'theosis', the adoption of man by grace.

+++

Matthias Scheeben, in his "The Mysteries of Christianity" shows a mystical cosmos whose parts are united in theophanic harmony. Scheeben seeks to show the internal communication of Divine life in the Trinity, as the principle not only of communication of Itself to the creature in the Divine life of grace and glory, but also the principle of all communication as such. The knowledge of the supernatural is more excellent than any human wisdom, because through its foundation on the word of God it possesses a greater degree of certitude. The obscurity which surrounds the mysteries of faith results from the weakness of the human intellect, which, like the eye that gazes on the sun, is blinded by the fulness of light.

Since all truth is from God, there can be no real warfare between reason and revelation, or faith and science. Supernatural mysteries as such cannot be demonstrated by reason, but the Christian apologist can always show that the arguments against their possibility are not conclusive (Aquinas "Suppl. Boeth. de trinitate", Q2, a3, "Summa Theologicae", Q1). The nature of God which is infinite and eternal, must be incomprehensible to an intelligence that is not capable of perfect knowledge.

That science cannot solve all the mysteries of indicates the limitation of the human intellect. Human reason however, is able to recognise the distinctive 'mysteriousness' of a supernatural truth, and can to some extent shed light on the obscurity by means of analogy and the fittingness of the mystery by reasons of congruity. This was done with great success by the Fathers and the Scholastic theologians, and has not been matched in the modern era

Thomas

Yes, to build through inductive reason must produce the results of the tower of Babble. Because of our acclimation to cave life and it becoming the norm, Our higher spiritual part can only be awakened through revelation. It allows man to be able to use and experience deductive reason which enables him to be like a duck and be calm at one level even in the most violent turmoil below when necessary to get things done.

"Always behave like a duck: keep calm & unruffled on the surface, but paddle like hell underneath."

We lack deductive reason as it relates to spiritual and conscious understanding so do the best with inductive reason which must lose its way without help from above. The question becomes how to be open to help from above to become capable of deductive reason?

In our attempt to reconcile the inner and outer world, however, we do come up against a very real difficulty, which must be faced. This difficulty is connected with the problem of reconciling different 'methods of knowing'.

Man has two ways of studying the universe. The first is by induction: he examines phenomena, classifies them, and attempts to infer laws and principles from them. This is the method generally used by science. The second is by deduction: having perceived or had revealed or discovered certain general laws and principles, he attempts to deduce the application of these laws in various studies and in life. This is the method generally used by religions.. The first method begins with 'facts' and attempts to reach 'laws'. The second method begins with 'laws' and attempts to reach 'facts'.

These two methods belong to the working of different human functions. The first is the method of the ordinary logical mind, which is permanently available to us. the second derives from a potential function in man, which is ordinarily inactive for lack of nervous energy of sufficient intensity, and which we may call higher mental function This function on rare occasions of its operation, reveals to man laws in action, he sees the whole phenomenal world as the product of laws.

All true formulations of universal laws derive recently or remotely from the working of this higher function, somewhere and in some man. At the same time, for the application and understanding of the laws revealed in the long stretches of time and culture when such revelation is not available, man has to rely on the ordinary logical mind."

 

[Thomas]

So Thomas are you 'anti christ'?

Am I? Gosh ... there was me, all along, thinking I was ...

You state you believe nothing more is coming.

Ah ... that explains it ... you haven't read me properly, or rather you've assumed a meaning that is your own, not mine. I said:

rather the fulfillment of all that has been promised.

So no, I don't believe in things people imagine or assume or simply guess at or determine according to themselves, but yes, I do believe that Christ is coming ... because he has told us as much.

How that 'reveals' itself is another matter,

Again, He has implied more than once it will be when and how we least expect it. In my own limited experience, this is true.

And again, I do believe that there are certain things "It is not for you (us) to know" (Acts 1:7), and I don't trouble my sweet little head about 'em, either! But everything else, believe me, I'm into ...

I think it's not so much the case or a 'corrupt teacher' as 'inattentive student'!

Thomas

 

[Bishadi]

Am I? Gosh ... there was me, all along, thinking I was ...

was what?

you thought of yourself as .............?

Ah ... that explains it ... you haven't read me properly, or rather you've assumed a meaning that is your own, not mine. I said:

you are suggesting that mankind is not capable of understanding truth

to such an extent that science is less than church teachings

So no, I don't believe in things people imagine or assume or simply guess at or determine according to themselves, but yes, I do believe that Christ is coming ... because he has told us as much.

so what is 'christ' bringing..... what is the mystery?

Again, He has implied more than once it will be when and how we least expect it. In my own limited experience, this is true.

bet you would never have expected a direct contact either

And again, I do believe that there are certain things "It is not for you (us) to know" (Acts 1:7), and I don't trouble my sweet little head about 'em, either! But everything else, believe me, I'm into ...

until the last..............

I think it's not so much the case or a 'corrupt teacher' as 'inattentive student'!

that is why i bark when you write what you call truth, rather than learn what is true!

 

[Thomas]

I hear you barking, but what you fail to realise, or refuse to accept, is it's up the wrong tree.

Thomas

 

[soleil10]

The Son was sent by the Father and there could be no other outcome than the Cross. Only through death canHe overcome death.

I read a different mystery ... Christ's confession in the garden is the confession of all our prayers ... it is the cry of all humanity. His acceptance of the Cup is absolutely crucial.

There were no witnesses to this event, the three He took with him 'slept' through it ... so the story is revealed through the Holy Spirit ... had Christ followed his human will at this point, there would be no via dolorosa.
I read it that He is the Kingdom. Thomas

Thomas, I need to ask you the following question because we do not agree why Jesus came and what was his purpose

- what do you think is concretely God's purpose for his creation including what is God purpose for men and women ?

 

[Bishadi]

I hear you barking, but what you fail to realise, or refuse to accept, is it's up the wrong tree.

any can see that

your lineage (tree of life) is being dishonored by your (selfishness) choice.

and what happens to living things that do not do well (good); they become extinct

thomas, you a dinosaur!

 

[Thomas]

Hi Soleil —

- what do you think is concretely God's purpose for his creation including what is God purpose for men and women ?

Point 1:
There is no 'purpose' in God.

Let me explain that: 'purpose' implies a possibility or a potentiality not yet fulfilled. This cannot apply to God, as there is no 'potentiality' in God — God is what He is and does not increase nor decrease, does not grow nor decay ... there is no addition nor subtraction ... no multiplication nor division ... no change nor alteration ... and God is All-Possibility but whether any individual and specific possibility exists or not ... whether the cosmos exists or not ... does not alter anything for God ...

Point 2:
There is nothing in God that is 'unrealised' to God, He possesses no potentiality or possibility with regard to Himself, because He is Perfect, and if Perfect, is complete, suffering no limitation, restriction, determination, etc.

So in theology God is Act (Lt actus) in the sense that how He is is wholly who and what He is ...

Point 3:
God is, and His 'isness' (Lt esse) or 'selfhood' (Lt: ipseity') is the Father.
God's knowing, awareness, or consciousness (all these terms are inadequate) of Himself is the Son.

The next bit is hugely technical, but to oversimplify, everything the Father is, He gives to the Son, and the Son gives everything He is, back to the Father ...

Everything that is the Gift of the Father to the Son is His ipseity — selfhood — utterly and perfectly, but if the Gift possesses selfhood utterly and perfectly, then the Gift is a person, a self, as the Father is a person, a self, even if the Person, the Self, is the same.

Gift, then, is Holy Spirit.

And the Son, in giving back, renders to the Father exactly as the Father renders to the Son.

So...
So in the Godhead there are three: actus, esse and ipseity.

In the Trinity there is no movement, but there is procession ... and this procession is joy. The Son is the 'light' of the Father's eye, and the Father is the love of the Son's heart ... and this light, this joy, this love — these three — are the 'reason' for existence.

Because within the Trinity the Three, as One, decided to create 'outside' of themselves light, joy and love ... so that in every mode and degree and dimension of existence, that divine actus and esse and ipseity could make itself known and present to creatures ...

'Reason', 'purpose', 'cause' fall far short of it ... God did not create for a reason, for a purpose, for a cause ... He did because He can, and because He delights in who He is.

The philosophers say: The Good by its nature seeks to communicate Itself.

The Moslems say: I was a secret treasure, and I wanted to be known.

Scripture says: God is Love (1 John 4:8)

+++

Having got all that out of the way, now we're here ... what's the point?


"That which we have seen and have heard, we declare unto you, that you also may have fellowship with us, and our fellowship may be with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ." 1 John 1:3

Participation in the Divine Life, that is what God wants for His creature.

In the Holy Spirit,

Thomas

 

[soleil10]

Hi Thomas,

My original question was:

Originally Posted by soleil10
- what do you think is concretely God's purpose for his creation including what is God purpose for men and women ?

You answered:

There is no 'purpose' in God.

and ended by:

Participation in the Divine Life, that is what God wants for His creature.

I would say that what God's want for his chidren is a purpose.

But let me rephrase my question. Why do you think God created the world (his creation? including of course human beings at the center of it ?
Did he needed to create us ?

What participating in the Divine Life means (or meant since we fell) for us His creatures on earth ?

May be I should ask you also what you mean by divine life on earth for individual, couples, families, countries, the whole world.

 

[Thomas]

Hi Soleil —

I would say that what God's want for his chidren is a purpose.

I can accept that, as long as we do not fall into the error of assuming that God 'needs', which people often do.

Consider this: something undertaken with a purpose is undertaken according to an end, but as there is no beginning and no end in God, then there is no purpose ...

Why do you think God created the world (his creation? including of course human beings at the center of it ?

Because He can. Why should He not?

Did he needed to create us?

No.

What participating in the Divine Life means (or meant since we fell) for us His creatures on earth?

The Son incorporates our human nature into His divine nature by hypostatic union accomplished through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

I don't know what the 'limit' of that is for an earthbound creature, but I do know that His mercy, and His gifts, are without measure and according to the evidence of the saints, it's more than we can possibly imagine.

May be I should ask you also what you mean by divine life on earth for individual, couples, families, countries, the whole world.

Well, by extension what flows from above permeates down, so those closer to God are visible in their graces (for those who have the eyes to see) and as God gives Himself to them, as Sons and Daughters of God, they give themselves to us.

We are, however, all One Body — this is the Doctrine of the Mystical Body.

This is another aspect of 'tradition' that the modern world is almost entirely ignorant of; it doesn't understand, and in its ignorant assumptions, is not interested in understanding.

Today, for example, everybody wants to be a celebrity. Everybody wants their 15 minutes of fame. That's not what God wants, it's not what the great traditions teach. People at some point will have to get it into their heads that 'progress' is heading up a blind alley.

+++

Some people have trouble with the idea of a God who has no need of anything, and argue a degree of necessity or determination. Eventually this ends up as self-justification.

Two points to consider:

1: If God did have to create a creation ... it needn't have been this one.
2: Accepting that ... if God did have to populate this creation ... it needn't have included me.

I find that thought 'grounding' — any thought of 'need' or 'necessity' or 'requirement' or 'creative imperative' is all fluff, because that can all happen without you and I in it.

The fact that I am here, that He is there, and He's reaching out to me, here, is everything. The rest, as my Buddhist friends would say, is maya.

Thomas

 

[wil]

I don't know if G!d wants or needs.

I definitely don't think G!d needs worship.

I do think we will end up eventually realizing our connection to G!d. But believe that is more like gravity...it will have its affect someday.

That someday being whenever we decide to quit holding back.

 

[Thomas]

Well as this is 'Catholic' mystery, I'll answer as a Catholic.

I don't know if G!d wants or needs.

Nope, he don't, if He do, he ain't God ...

I definitely don't think G!d needs worship.

Nope, I don't think so neither. I definitely think we do (need to worship Him), though.
"The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath" (Mark 2:27)
Means that without the Sabbath, there is no communication with God, period.

I do think we will end up eventually realizing our connection to G!d.

That's assuming a lot ... The way we're going, I'd say that's increasingly more unlikely.

I don't think we have an intrinsic connection, I think God offers one, extrinsically (back to the Sabbath, again). You'll have to show me how human nature is God otherwise, and if we are God, how can God go so wrong?

But believe that is more like gravity...it will have its affect someday.
That someday being whenever we decide to quit holding back.

Ah, now you're talking Holy Spirit ... He's the 'gravity well' that draws the soul.

I would say the gravity of current culture in the West is towards the glamour of the self. There's more kids today who take a Hollywood icon as their model than a Heavenly one, and there's more kids dying, and I mean actually dying, in the attempt to emulate their Hollywood models than are dying to the world in the pursuit of Heaven.

You might be right, but it'll require Divine Intervention, from every indication I've seen so far ... bearing in mind some scientists hold little hope of the human race seeing the end of this century (I've heart 80% global casualty figures) in any recognisable form.

Thomas

 

[soleil10]

I can accept that, as long as we do not fall into the error of assuming that God 'needs', which people often do.

Consider this: something undertaken with a purpose is undertaken according to an end, but as there is no beginning and no end in God, then there is no purpose ...

Because He can. Why should He not?

No.

The Son incorporates our human nature into His divine nature by hypostatic union accomplished through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

I don't know what the 'limit' of that is for an earthbound creature, but I do know that His mercy, and His gifts, are without measure and according to the evidence of the saints, it's more than we can possibly imagine.

Well, by extension what flows from above permeates down, so those closer to God are visible in their graces (for those who have the eyes to see) and as God gives Himself to them, as Sons and Daughters of God, they give themselves to us.

We are, however, all One Body — this is the Doctrine of the Mystical Body.

This is another aspect of 'tradition' that the modern world is almost entirely ignorant of; it doesn't understand, and in its ignorant assumptions, is not interested in understanding.

Today, for example, everybody wants to be a celebrity. Everybody wants their 15 minutes of fame. That's not what God wants, it's not what the great traditions teach. People at some point will have to get it into their heads that 'progress' is heading up a blind alley.
+++
Some people have trouble with the idea of a God who has no need of anything, and argue a degree of necessity or determination. Eventually this ends up as self-justification.

Two points to consider:
1: If God did have to create a creation ... it needn't have been this one.
2: Accepting that ... if God did have to populate this creation ... it needn't have included me.

I find that thought 'grounding' — any thought of 'need' or 'necessity' or 'requirement' or 'creative imperative' is all fluff, because that can all happen without you and I in it.

The fact that I am here, that He is there, and He's reaching out to me, here, is everything. The rest, as my Buddhist friends would say, is maya.
Thomas

Thomas, I am going to be very busy for the next three days, so I will respond next week.

 

[Quahom1]

I don't know if G!d wants or needs.

I definitely don't think G!d needs worship.

I do think we will end up eventually realizing our connection to G!d. But believe that is more like gravity...it will have its affect someday.

That someday being whenever we decide to quit holding back.

That is where you are wrong.

Worship is demanded, and rightfully so. Right now...

Deny a person their due, and their ire is on you, with some consequence. Deny God his due, and his ire is on you with all consequence.

You can't deny God, Wil. Try as you might...

There is a time for payment, and yes this is a barter issue. Pay a little now, or pay alot later...

Live well, or live welled.

 

[Bishadi]

a mystery of itself: to worship?

seems to read what Jesus said (per bible),

Mark 10: 17

And as he is going forth into the way, one having run and having kneeled to him, was questioning him, `Good teacher, what may I do, that life age-during I may inherit?'


18 And Jesus said to him, `Why me dost thou call good? no one [is] good except One -- God;

19the commands thou hast known: Thou mayest not commit adultery, Thou mayest do no murder, Thou mayest not steal, Thou mayest not bear false witness, Thou mayest not defraud, Honour thy father and mother.'


Seems Jesus told the people what to do, and homage is not within the 'injil' (re-statement of the 'laws')

He taught forgiveness, in which when someone does something wrong 'to you' how to forgive........... but do folk observe what was said/written?

DO folk read?

Or do they follow others (incorporations) over and above what the teachers (prophets) had shared?

a mystery