jewish messiah

[Bishadi]

Per the advice of another; a summary has been observed on what to observe from the Messiah;

Each has been read through and nice to see

• Isaiah 2, 11, 42; 59:20
• Jeremiah 23, 30, 33; 48:47; 49:39
• Ezekiel 38:16
• Hosea 3:4-3:5
• Micah 4
• Zephaniah 3:9
• Zechariah 14:9
• Daniel 10:14

Do these pretty much cover the ideas of messiah, per Judaism?

Or is there more?

 

[dauer]

There's always more.

Starting point:

The Laws Concerning Mashiach

Continuing point:

My Jewish Learning: The Messiah

 

[Bishadi]

There's always more.

Starting point:

The Laws Concerning Mashiach

Continuing point:

My Jewish Learning: The Messiah

Not a rebbe following kind, but i have read the items.

Text? Share knowledge that is based from Jewish literature.

Your idea is hasidic, a sect of judaism that is chabad.

Interesting but still that site is offering a secular opinion of judaic literature. it would be like comparing the literature of a western sect with an old orthodox or gnosis.

What i am asking is what more 'old' material can be viewed regarding messiah within the focal written 'authority' of the jewish religion itself.

Of more clearly; the material like Mishneh Torah/Deuteronomy etc....

 

[dauer]

I didn't present an idea that is hasidic. The first page is a translation of Maimonides (author of the mishneh torah), a highly influential medieval Jewish philosopher. MyJewishLearning is an inter-denominational Jewish website that if anything is biased toward more liberal perspectives, not hasidic, but endeavors to represent the diversity of Jewish perspectives on a variety of issues.

-- Dauer

edit:

btw chabad is one particular hasidic sect. There are many.

 

[Bishadi]

btw chabad is one particular hasidic sect. There are many.

but at least you cleared that up.

been comparing notes on many of the variations

items that stood out

"4. If a king will arise from the House of David who delves deeply into the study of the Torah and, like David his ancestor, observes its mitzvos as prescribed by the Written Law and the Oral Law; if he will compel all of Israel to walk in [the way of the Torah] and repair the breaches [in its observance]; and if he will fight the wars of G-d; - we may, with assurance, consider him Moshiach. "

and

1. One should not entertain the notion that in the Era of Moshiach any element of the natural order will be nullified, or that there will be any innovation in the work of creation. Rather, the world will continue according to its pattern.

Although Yeshayahu [Yeshayahu 11:6] states, "The wolf will dwell with the lamb, and the leopard will lie down with the young goat," these [words] are an allegory and a riddle. They mean that Israel will dwell securely together with the wicked gentiles who are likened to wolves and leopards, as in the verse [Yirmeyahu 5:6], "A wolf of the deserts despoils them, a leopard watches over their cities." [In this era, all nations] will return to the true faith and no longer plunder or destroy. Instead, at peace with Israel, they will eat that which is permitted, as it is written [Yeshayahu 11:7], "The lion shall eat straw like the ox."

Similarly, other prophecies of this nature concerning Moshiach are analogies. In the Era of the King Moshiach, everyone will realize what was implied by these metaphors and allusions.


The last section simply shares that what many folks believe.

the comparances will continue

 

[dauer]

If you are really interested in Jewish messiah texts, there's a fairly comprehensive book by Raphael Patai that I think may be simply titled Messiah Texts. Not sure. I haven't read it but I read another book by him on the portrayal of the divine feminine in Jewish history that was quite good. I don't know how much you want to delve into Jewish texts on the messiah but if you do want more, that would be a good book to acquire.

 

[Quahom1]

but at least you cleared that up.

this is precious...

 

[dauer]

I didn't get what he meant by that. I thought he was being polite for once.

 

[Bishadi]

If you are really interested in Jewish messiah texts, there's a fairly comprehensive book by Raphael Patai that I think may be simply titled Messiah Texts. Not sure. I haven't read it but I read another book by him on the portrayal of the divine feminine in Jewish history that was quite good. I don't know how much you want to delve into Jewish texts on the messiah but if you do want more, that would be a good book to acquire.

thanks for the suggestion but it is the old texts that i am seeking, not the additions, nor interpretations as you can see above, the opinions are imperfect

"everyone will realize what was implied by these metaphors and allusions"

 

[Quahom1]

I didn't get what he meant by that. I thought he was being polite for once.

equal opportunity off...

 

[dauer]

Bishadi,

the text I suggested is the largest compilation of English translations of Jewish primary sources on the messiah. If you're sincere when you ask:

Do these pretty much cover the ideas of messiah, per Judaism?

then that's the type of book you want.

-- Dauer

 

[Bishadi]

Bishadi,

the text I suggested is the largest compilation of English translations of Jewish primary sources on the messiah. If you're sincere when you ask:



then that's the type of book you want.

-- Dauer

note taken

been in the old texts chapter by chapter, enjoying the life of it all

opinions are not my favorite

for example; the book maybe someone's opinion based on their idea, not the religion itself

it is like observing Einstein's work without comprehending planck; practically impossible

such would be the same with any belief, i seek the doctrine that creates the beliefs, not the opinion of the works (some people think Black Holes exist because they think Einstein's work of space bending is pure)

 

[dauer]

That's a book of Jewish primary sources, the old texts you're talking about, with minimal commentary. You can't find that many of them all in one area, in English, anywhere else.

If you're looking for biblical texts only then you're not really interested in Jewish perspectives on the messiah and your first question was either insincere or uninformed as Judaism is, by its very nature, a religion of interpretation. We see many levels of meaning in the Torah. If those are not the types of answers that interest you, you'll probably get better answers somewhere else.

I'm not really certain what you mean by " the book maybe someone's opinion based on their idea, not the religion itself" as Judaism isn't by any means monolithic. The Talmud sets the standard by presenting multiple contrary answers to questions from different individuals instead of one definitive answer.

We're not sola scriptura either. You can't get Judaism from Tanach alone.

 

[Bishadi]

That's a book of Jewish primary sources, the old texts you're talking about, with minimal commentary. You can't find that many of them all in one area, in English, anywhere else.

you and i have a difference of opinion.

If you're looking for biblical texts only then you're not really interested in Jewish perspectives on the messiah and your first question was either insincere or uninformed as Judaism is, by its very nature, a religion of interpretation.

That is your opinion, once again and with the connotation of proprietary.

i beg to differ.

We see many levels of meaning in the Torah. If those are not the types of answers that interest you, you'll probably get better answers somewhere else.

Hence, why it is best to read rather than comform to biased opinions. Notice, i was requesting material to read.

I'm not really certain what you mean by " the book maybe someone's opinion based on their idea, not the religion itself"

Because like any religion, there are a gazillion sects within the belief system.

as Judaism isn't by any means monolithic.

Strange as it may seem, the torah is the monolithic 'foundation' not the talmut, especially when concerning messiah.

The Talmud sets the standard by presenting multiple contrary answers to questions from different individuals instead of one definitive answer.

Talmut is similar to adjudicated laws; opinions of the oral and written laws.

We're not sola scriptura either. You can't get Judaism from Tanach alone.

Again, your opinion which may be the opinion of the many within your observed sect, but that is not what the thread is about. The thread is about writtings on Messiah which are from prophecies, not opinions of prophecies.

I asked for data, i asked if there was more material regarding the messiah.

Is there anyone else, who has material to add?

 

[dauer]

you and i have a difference of opinion.

That's not a matter of opinion. That's what the book is. You're welcome to look the book up yourself if you don't believe me.

That is your opinion, once again and with the connotation of proprietary.

i beg to differ.

No, that's the nature of the religion. Sometimes the levels of interpretation are categorized as pshat, remez, drash and sod though they needn't be. A brief perusal of early midrashic collections or even minimal familiarity with the talmud would be enough to verify that Judaism is a religion of interpretation. Clearly though you've no interest in familiarizing yourself with what Judaism is, only insisting that you know better than Jews what it is.

Hence, why it is best to read rather than comform to biased opinions. Notice, i was requesting material to read.

And I gave it to you. You've rejected that material because you're not interested in Jewish perspectives on the messiah, only your own.

Because like any religion, there are a gazillion sects within the belief system.

Incorrect. There are different denominations. The only sects are on the far right and they formed as a response to the haskalah among other things. The majority of the diversity of religious thought in Judaism can be found to some degree in all of the denominations. The differences between denominations stem largely from different views on the nature of authority (where authority rests and whether or not mitzvot are fully binding) and the validity of western scholarship vs traditional Jewish ways of interpreting Torah and applying halachah. And yet members of different denominations can davven side-by-side so long as the halachic needs of each member of the community is met.

Strange as it may seem, the torah is the monolithic 'foundation' not the talmut, especially when concerning messiah.

Maybe according to your belief system, but not according to Judaism. Torah is the root from which everything else extends, but it's multi-faced and you can't get Judaism from Torah in isolation. According to more traditional views, there are two Torahs, one written and one oral. Both were received at sinai.

Talmut is similar to adjudicated laws; opinions of the oral and written laws.

Talmud is one of the core sacred texts of the Jewish tradition. In terms of hierarchy of importance it's generally placed on a higher level of importance than Nach. All of Judaism today aside from karaism is based around the Talmud. You can't understand Judaism without it.

Again, your opinion which may be the opinion of the many within your observed sect

Er no, not at all. I'm an agnostic and reject messianism entirely. I'm post-denominational, don't belong to any denomination and see the value in all of them. If I were trying to represent something I agreed with more I wouldn't mention a personal messiah at all, but I'm more interested in explaining Judaism than my own individual perspective unless someone asks me about my personal views. I'm just telling you like it is. You're more interested in asserting yourself as an authority on Judaism than in learning from Jews about what our religion is. It's a very ignorant position you're taking and hardly one from which you'll learn much about Jewish perspectives, but then I don't think you were ever interested in learning Jewish perspectives. You've already decided for yourself that you know what they are better than we do.

-- Dauer

 

[bananabrain]

it is the old texts that i am seeking, not the additions, nor interpretations as you can see above, the opinions are imperfect

if you're a bible scholar, it's all additions based on interpretations and, furthermore it's all opinion as well! look, bishadi, this is pretty much judaism 101 that dauer is giving you - and, before you object, he and i are, theologically speaking, poles apart.

biblical texts on the messiah are notoriously difficult to interpret. christians can make a case for seeing jesus in practically every verse in the pentateuch. jews argue ferociously about what the different interpretations of verses that may relate to the messiah might be, because it's not at all obvious. we don't have a "gazillion" sects, but we do have a "gazillion" interpretations. when dauer said "Judaism is, by its very nature, a religion of interpretation" he was not giving you an opinion. you will not, as far as i know, find a single jewish person who is likely to disagree with that. you will only find people disagreeing about what the interpretation is likely to be based on which traditional or personal sources of interpretation they are taking into account. there is nothing "biased" about pointing that out - he's not telling you a particular interpretation is correct or not.

Strange as it may seem, the torah is the monolithic 'foundation' not the talmut, especially when concerning messiah.

it's talmuD with a "D", bishadi, that can't be hard to get right, can it? and although the Torah is indeed the "monolithic" foundation, the talmud is simply commentary on the Torah. as such it has plenty to say about the messiah and, as it was accepted by the entire jewish people as being authoritative (at least from its sealing up till modern times) it is considered very much part of the foundation.

Talmut is similar to adjudicated laws; opinions of the oral and written laws.

this sentence would suggest you don't actually know very much about the talmuD-with-a-D. it contains far more than law and, more to the point, doesn't always rule decisively on points of law. even more to the point, on aggadic (non-halakhic) matters, ie those which do not involve legal points of correct action, it allows for a wide variety of personal opinion. in fact it establishes that aggadic variety is in fact a halakhic requirement! what the messiah may or not turn out to be is not a matter of halakhah; what happens when he turns up *is* albeit it is covered under the regular "laws of kings". either way you're either talking future prediction (in which case it's speculative and therefore aggadic) or actual jurisprudence (in which case it's precise legal argumentation. even the idea that to believe in the messiah is a theological dogma is a comparatively late idea.

The thread is about writtings on Messiah which are from prophecies, not opinions of prophecies.

but a prophecy on its own is of no value whatsoever (other than literary and poetic) without an *application*. and for there to be an application, there must be an interpretation, which means someone's opinion is going to be given - even yours.

as usual, you seem to be arguing at cross-purposes and giving the english language a serious run for its money.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Dream]

I confirm what they are saying is consistent with my experiences in various encounters with Jews. Variety is their thing.

 

[Bishadi]

That's not a matter of opinion. That's what the book is.

your opinion (be honest or don't answer)

A brief perusal of early midrashic collections or even minimal familiarity with the talmud would be enough to verify that Judaism is a religion of interpretation.

exactly!

but if i say it, you ad the ad hominen as you state here....

Clearly though you've no interest in familiarizing yourself with what Judaism is

when i shared the talmut as 'adjudication' of law, didn't that share to you not only has it been observed, but that i also comprehended what it is, personally? (no one else's opinion)

Incorrect. There are different denominations.

again, i use the term 'sect' and rather than just say, they are 'different demonimations'.... you say 'incorrect' as if you are authority. it is your opinion and you have no problem with pushing as if what you think is what the world thinks and i am just a trouble maker

The differences between denominations stem largely from different views on the nature of authority (where authority rests and whether or not mitzvot are fully binding)

So in my words versus yours, the sects are divided by interpretation of moses laws.

Nothing to debate!

and i opened this thread asking for more literature on messiah, within the original forms prior to opinion. (consistantly)

Does that bug you?

Er no, not at all. I'm an agnostic and reject messianism entirely.

then what business do you have claiming you can define judaism, when there is a precept:

"Whoever does not believe in him, or does not await his coming, denies not only [the statements of] the other prophets, but also [those of] the Torah and of Moshe, our teacher, for the Torah attests to his coming, stating: [Devarim 30:3-5]"

that is not my opinion, it was from the site you pointed me to

that (per your judaism) tells me, that you are no authority

Daur, no more telling ME what i think. I know who i am, and capable of standing by what i say.

All you just did was show your lack of comprehending the very material you represent.

 

[dauer]

Viva variety!

 

[Bishadi]

if you're a bible scholar,

'all' religions, knowledge, science, philosophy.... based on nothing but the intent to give back in thanks of being alive.

I love them all but often the people get in the way.... i asked for more than his book, told him why and it offended him; NOT MY FAULT!

biblical texts on the messiah are notoriously difficult to interpret. christians can make a case for seeing jesus in practically every verse

many want their messiah to be 'the' messiah....

it is normal: me not on that train, me on the learning curve (always)

in the pentateuch. jews argue ferociously about what the different interpretations of verses that may relate to the messiah might be, because it's not at all obvious. we don't have a "gazillion" sects, but we do have a "gazillion" interpretations.

so instead of interpretations, the oldest texts and MY OWN interpretations are what I wish to pursue.

And find i have not contested a line of faith other than having little faith in interpretations. meaning, them prophecies of messiah are the interpretations of the reciever, it seems prudent that any who ever observe a messiah ideal would also wish to seek the writtings as close to the originator as possible

even the idea that to believe in the messiah is a theological dogma is a comparatively late idea.

all three of the ladies bound to the mount share the 'end of days'......... from torah to bible to quran; all are share their verions of the 'bringer of peace'

and then if you are well read, find the same in hindu, buddha, thoth, and even the hopi's of northing america

most every belief currently existing has a form to the same 'coming'