Leo Tolstoy got it right

B

beefy

New Member
Messages
4
Reaction score
0
Points
0
When one is in the military, one may engage in acts which are quite contrary to Jesus' words.

When Jesus says, "do good to those who hate you," how can one kill someone else and consider it to be doing them any good?

When Jesus says, "love your enemies," how can one love their enemy as they rip out their guts with a bayonet?

Some people who kill other people in their military occupation, really need to think about what they are doing.

These people who kill in the military make thousands of mothers childless, children fatherless, and countless untold numbers of grieving widows. There is nothing honorable about that. That is what these people are trained to do. Trained to kill. They bring pain, grief, and suffering to those caught in their wake, both the guilty and the innocent. And they grieve me as well.

In short, what I have to say is this. Jesus reached out to the fatherless and widows. These people who kill in the military and claim to follow Christ merely make more work for the true Christians who are out there reaching out to the families of all the insurgents and "terrorists" and innocent bystanders that the other "Christians" have killed.

To be Christian means to be Christ-like. There is nothing Christ-like about taking anothers life just to save your own. Is their life worth less than the life of your family? Are they not just as loved by God as you? Is their life worth less than your country? Is their life worth less than your freedom?

No. God loves us, all of us. God forgave us when we deserved death. He took away the punishment for our transgressions. If we do not forgive our own transgressors in the same way, how then can we represent God's love to the world?

The Bible says to imitate the life of Christ here on earth, and Christ never killed those who threatened His safety and the safety of His disciples. They ended up dead too.

But what did they say? "To live is Christ and to die is gain." Death is gain, my friend.

In the words of the great Christian Leo Tolstoy, who was a lieutenant in the Russian army at one time...

"We must say that by whatever name people may call murder - murder always remains murder and a criminal and shameful thing.

With regard to those who voluntarily choose a military career, I would propose to state clearly and definitely that not withstanding all the pomp, glitter, and general approval with which it is surrounded, it is a criminal and shameful activity; and that the higher the position a man holds in the military profession the more criminal and shameful his occupation."

And a truly shameful occupation it is. Worthy to be rebuked and admonished.
 
what a shame the revered church fathers justified a 'just' war [in the name of the religious 'right' against the religious 'wrong'].
 
Napolean is invading Mother Russia. If the French conquer Russia, they might easily enslave, kill, or otherwise abuse Russian peoples.

You are a soldier in the Russian army. You consider the possibility that your wife and daughter might be raped and killed unless the French are stopped. What do you do? Step aside and let it take place?

It's very easy to insist that the lives of the enemy soldiers are worth just as much as the lives of your countrymen. That's not quite a justification for laying down your arms, however. It may be regrettable to kill in self-defense or the defense of others, but you aren't exactly given preferable alternatives.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
I hit my twenty minute editing limit. I meant to add that comparing the value of lives almost begs a utilitarian analysis. If one French soldier might kill two or more innocent Russians, does that justify killing the French soldier?

The issue isn't truly one of a calculation of the value of lives, but what to do when the lives of innocents are endangered by aggressors. No one has to like war, or any act of self-defense, but it may be seen as a necessary evil.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
Eudaimonist said:
The issue isn't truly one of a calculation of the value of lives, but what to do when the lives of innocents are endangered by aggressors. No one has to like war, or any act of self-defense, but it may be seen as a necessary evil.
Click to expand...

On the rare occasion war has been a case of an evil aggressor bent on dominating an innocent victim. Far more often it involves a series escalating rhetoric and acts by both sides, and opportunities to avoid war, if there was only the will to do so.

Eudaimonist, while I do appreciate your example, and actually agree that self-defense is a legitimate reaction to an aggressor, it reminds me of the current debate over torture and terrorism.

Often when advocating for torture people bring up the ticking time-bomb...
What would you do if there was a nuclear bomb about to go off in New York and the terrorist knew the code to diffuse it... wouldn't you torture him to save millions of lives?​

Unfortunately, this lurid and improbable scenario has in real life become...
There may be no ticking time-bomb, and there's no proof that he's a terrorist, but we're going to torture him anyway because our safety trumps all other considerations and 9/11 changed all the rules.​

So I think we need to be very careful about the scenarios we imagine in order to justify horrible acts. Because as with war and torture, we use these scenarios to justify the acts even when the hypothetical doesn't exist.

In the meantime, we spend trillions of dollars every year on defense. From Global Security.org the figures for defense spending...

World — $1100 billion
Rest-of-World [all but USA] — $500 billion
United States — $623 billion
China — $65.0 billion​

So while the United States argues over how to pay for health care—something that can save lives everyday—we spend hundreds of billions of dollars, outspending our nearest competitor by nearly ten-to one on the military.

These are insane priorities, and I'm with beefy in agreeing that it's high time to change them.
 
Is this being "Christ-like"?

Revelation 19:11=15 said:
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Click to expand...
 
You know something, I keep going to post here, but every time i do, i hear my mothers voice, "If you havent got anything nice to say, dont say anything at all..."
 
citizenzen said:
I'll count that as just another reason for me not to believe in Christianity.

I feel so blessed to be Buddhist.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately Buddhists and Hindis have been at each others' throats for decades, if not centuries, in the East.
 
Quahom1 said:
Unfortunately Buddhists and Hindis have been at each others' throats for decades, if not centuries, in the East.
Click to expand...

Just goes to show you how easily people fall prey to violence and why we must redouble our efforts not to repeat the same mistake.

Peace to you and GM, her mother was a very wise woman.
 
citizenzen said:
Just goes to show you how easily people fall prey to violence and why we must redouble our efforts not to repeat the same mistake.

Peace to you and GM, her mother was a very wise woman.
Click to expand...
There is a way, but it requires children being taught from the start that life is precious...all life, and it requires examples for children to observe, as re-inforcement to that teaching. That means adults have to lead by example.

I remember once in high school, there was a fight I was in, which didn't last long. The aggressor got physical, and I became defensive, just enough to keep him at bay. This frustrated him more, and the more he tried to cause pain, the stronger my defense became, again only to keep him at bay. Finally he gave up and walked away. I was none the worse for wear, and the news that flew through the school halls was that I had won, because I didn't give in, yet didn't give up or get out of control. So, it is possible to end conflict without serious damage to either party, or cause embarrassement, or humiliation.

Getting a bloodied nose during a skurmish is nothing compared to taking a life. And a nose bleed will heal...
 
greymare said:
That may be true CZ, but i find if i dont "let it out" one way or another, I might erupt. LOL. "she cannay take no more, captn.."
Click to expand...

Go on... let it out... I won't take it personally.

You don't even know me.

Why, I bet if we met, you only hate me half as much as you think you would.
 
LOL. i dont hate you cz.
Hate is a very strong emotion, and there are very few in this world that I hate.
I cant think of one person at the moment that I hate.
Perhaps its because i dont care enough one way or the other to "actually" hate.
Perhaps that should be another thread. ?
 
greymare said:
LOL. i dont hate you cz.
Hate is a very strong emotion, and there are very few in this world that I hate.
I cant think of one person at the moment that I hate.
Perhaps its because i dont care enough one way or the other to "actually" hate.
Perhaps that should be another thread. ?
Click to expand...
ouch. The opposite of hate is not love...it is indifference...
 
beefy said:
When one is in the military, one may engage in acts which are quite contrary to Jesus' words.

When Jesus says, "do good to those who hate you," how can one kill someone else and consider it to be doing them any good?

When Jesus says, "love your enemies," how can one love their enemy as they rip out their guts with a bayonet?

Some people who kill other people in their military occupation, really need to think about what they are doing.

These people who kill in the military make thousands of mothers childless, children fatherless, and countless untold numbers of grieving widows. There is nothing honorable about that. That is what these people are trained to do. Trained to kill. They bring pain, grief, and suffering to those caught in their wake, both the guilty and the innocent. And they grieve me as well.

In short, what I have to say is this. Jesus reached out to the fatherless and widows. These people who kill in the military and claim to follow Christ merely make more work for the true Christians who are out there reaching out to the families of all the insurgents and "terrorists" and innocent bystanders that the other "Christians" have killed.

To be Christian means to be Christ-like. There is nothing Christ-like about taking anothers life just to save your own. Is their life worth less than the life of your family? Are they not just as loved by God as you? Is their life worth less than your country? Is their life worth less than your freedom?

No. God loves us, all of us. God forgave us when we deserved death. He took away the punishment for our transgressions. If we do not forgive our own transgressors in the same way, how then can we represent God's love to the world?

The Bible says to imitate the life of Christ here on earth, and Christ never killed those who threatened His safety and the safety of His disciples. They ended up dead too.

But what did they say? "To live is Christ and to die is gain." Death is gain, my friend.

In the words of the great Christian Leo Tolstoy, who was a lieutenant in the Russian army at one time...

"We must say that by whatever name people may call murder - murder always remains murder and a criminal and shameful thing.

With regard to those who voluntarily choose a military career, I would propose to state clearly and definitely that not withstanding all the pomp, glitter, and general approval with which it is surrounded, it is a criminal and shameful activity; and that the higher the position a man holds in the military profession the more criminal and shameful his occupation."

And a truly shameful occupation it is. Worthy to be rebuked and admonished.
Click to expand...
I'm not going to disagree with you on the concept that war sucks. But I do think you give the common soldier a bum deal by collectively stating that being military in profession is criminal and shameful. That would be like saying police officers have a criminal and shameful occupation as well.

For the most part, military personnel are simply serving their country, and feel they are defending their home, hearth and nation. They aren't there to "kill the bad guy", but rather to keep the "bad guy" from killing them and theirs.

At the time of Tolstoy, the Czar of Russia had depleted the nation's coffers by building the Trans Siberian railroad, people were starving and freezing by one of the harshest winters Russia ever had. The German Kaiser put Russia into war, and that sent people over the brink of sanity. The Russian military, ill equiped, ill trained, and lacking in pay, began to take measures into their own hands. His own troops turned on his own people...that is what he observed, hence his hardened view. Yes he was angry at the Germans, but he was angrier with his own countrymen, of whom he thought were above barbarism...and then shewn wrong.

Hell, the Germans treated Russian prisoners of war better than the Russian military heiarchy did. "Get captured by the Germans, you'll live longer and better", was a running joke with Russian troops (but it had a serious element of truth to it).

Tolstoy was a man of his time, and saw great indignities within his own people.

The Bible specifically states that there is a time for everything, under the sun. That includes a time of war (Ecclesiastes). But not every soldier is a criminal or dishonoable, nor is war...
 
War is quite dishonarable. Allow me to prove it.

But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Luke 6:35-36

Jesus says to love enemies, not kill them. He says that God is "kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. This means that God is kind to the evil, as we should also be, as the children of the highest. We are to be merciful as God is.

But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also. Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again. And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.

The terrorists hate you. Jesus says Do good to those who hate you. Do good to the terrorists.

The terrorists curse you. Jesus says Bless those who curse you. God bless the terrorists. He loves them in spite of their sin.

The terrorists do evil unto you. Jesus says as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. Do unto the terrorists as you would have them do unto you. Love the terrorists as you would have them love you.

Romans 13:8-10, it says, Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. Romans 13: 8-10

It says right here that love worketh no ill to his neighbor. The action Hitler took, to order the extermination of the Jews, his fellow neighbors, was an action that worked ill to the Jews, and therefore was not an action of love, because Love worketh no ill to his neighbor. Jesus said to love our enemies, bless those who curse you, and to do good to those who hate you.

It is inconceivable that any human could kill another human out of love. It is not Biblical. Killing other people is not God's law, because it cannot be done out of love, and if it cannot be done out of love, it cannot be a fulfillment of the law, because love is the fulfilling of the law.

Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ. 1 Corinthians 11:1

The weapons of Christ's disciples are not carnal. If you want to be His disciple, neither should your weapons be. You are supposed to be an imitator of Christ.

For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds. Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled. 2 Corinthians 10:3-6

Wrestle not against flesh and blood, but use the sword of the spirit my friend.

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Ephesians 6:17

And I have something to say about your verse in Ecclesiates:

Although God (Jesus) remains the "same yesterday, today, and forever," Hebrews 13:8, His commands to His people have changed over time.

What many choose to cite in order to justify war are the Jewish wars of the Old Testament . What is wrong with this approach is that the ancient Israelites were men living under the Old Covenant. Under this old covenant, the Jews were permitted to own slaves, kill women and children, and all sorts of terrible atrocoties to mankind. But God gave them permission to do so, and He physically spoke to them on many occassions.

Under the New Covenant, however, the rules have changed, and the Old Covenant has been made obsolete.

"But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises." Hebrews 8:6

From the International Standard Version:

The New Covenant is Better Than the Old
"7For if the first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no need to look for a second one. 8But God found something wrong with his peoplewhen he said,
“Look! The days are coming, declares the Lord,when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.

9It will not be like the covenant that I made with their ancestors at the timewhen I took them by the hand and brought them out of the land of Egypt. Because they did not remain loyal to my covenant,I ignored them, declares the Lord.

10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11Never again will everyone teach his neighbor
or his brother by saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
because all of them will know me,
from the least important to the most important.
12For I will be merciful regarding their wrong deeds,
and I will never again remember their sins.”

13In speaking of a “new” covenant, he has made the first one obsolete, and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear." Hebrews 8:7-13

In the King James version, it says the Old Covenant has aged and "vanished away."

You see? The Old Testament doctrine has been made obsolete, including the "eye for an eye" doctrine.

Don't confuse the ancient Jews with Christians. The Jews were not Christians, thus they followed the Old Covenant.

That is what the "Old Testament" means, "Old Covenant."

Christians follow the "New Testament", which means "New Covenant." You follow the New Covenant.

Don't get me wrong though. Jesus still upheld the Ten Commandments, on numerous occassions. But He said the greatest commandment was to love God, and to love your neighbor. The terrorists are our neighbors too, as evidenced when Jesus said "Love your enemy."

God is not mocked.

"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." Galations 6:7

You see. The Bible says you reap what you sow.

If you sow in violence, in violence you will also reap. Violence begets violence, as love begets love.

On the other hand, if you sow in love and forgiveness, you will reap in love and forgiveness.

Obey Jesus. This is what He said to do.

"Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? 22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven." Matthew 18:21-22

Come now, if the terrorists sin against you, you are to forgive them every time, like Jesus said.

If you bomb them and shoot them after the first time the sin against you, how could they live so that you could forgive their next sin?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top