Library Science

Dream

Dream

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Is information becoming disinformation?

I feel overwhelmed when walking through a university library. So much has been put into journals and books, but for how long can people keep adding new material? Before you can add anything new you first must discover what is already known, so I'm curious as to how Science will grow past that obstacle. It takes some time just to find out what is already known, and if you project into the future there may someday be more books than people. Up until now Librarians knew what was what in their libraries and could direct you to specific books or sections. Now there is so much information that they often must make guesses and offer users search engines. What happens if information continues to sprawl?
 
This has been the case across the board, we are overwhelmed in BS.
Look at the tax code for a really good example.
3 million words of text which no single person has ever or will ever read.
And they keep adding to it.
Why not simplify the language and be straightforward about things????
Well, then they couldn't shaft us so easily then, could they?
The obfuscation, IMO is done intentionally so that things will be too complex and vague and obscure and confusing for anyone to comprehend, so people don't even try, they just rely on the authorized interpretation (which could be wrong or not in your best interests)

The legal system is another good example of way too much information delivered in a very obfuscating manner. They keep adding laws every year, yet they seldom rescind any.
A politician will put a law on the books as patronage for whomever helped elect them, yet when they are voted out, the law stays even if it is obvious patronage and not a good law.
There is some serious house cleaning ahead if we wish to avoid the problems which will arise from this mess.
 
Sad but true. Bureaucracy is part of the plan to keep any one government official from obtaining lots of power. Everything requires an act of congress; so they have to go through all kinds of negotiation and backdoor dealing to get anything done. It is a little bit of a ruse to keep them all busy and their knives out of our backs. Meanwhile they let the laws just keep on accumulating.
 
Dream said:
Sad but true. Bureaucracy is part of the plan to keep any one government official from obtaining lots of power. Everything requires an act of congress; so they have to go through all kinds of negotiation and backdoor dealing to get anything done. It is a little bit of a ruse to keep them all busy and their knives out of our backs. Meanwhile they let the laws just keep on accumulating.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately for all of us the rabbit hole goes far, far deeper than that.
Don't let the smoke get in your eyes, it will quite blind you to what is really going on.
 
How do I know it is really a plot and not just a series of coincidences?

Are we talking about a multi-generational thing? In order for me to believe there is a plot (whatever it is) then I will have to see its merits first, because if it has no merits then nobody could be behind it pulling the strings. People have to believe they are doing something good. Those who think they are part of an ancient plot to control life are deluding themselves and do not understand their own roots; and people who find themselves in that situation usually spoil their predecessor's plans. No one can be satisfied for their lives only to be a cog in part of some dark scam. They always have to believe that they are accomplishing something good, at least eventually. The recent housing crisis was a true plot but only because those involved could believe that they were doing something good while at the same time acting as parasites. Dictators especially always convince themselves if not others that they are doing good things.
 
Evil plots are very comforting. As children, we adored stories that pit absolute evil against absolute good. All the suffering in the kingdom is due to the Evil Queen, and once she is defeated by the Valiant Hero, everything will be perfect and everyone will Live Happily, Ever After. It's a comforting lie we like to tell ourselves--it's all a Vast Conspiracy. Therefore, we need to merely topple the Evil Ones who run it and we will all Live Happily, Ever After. The alternative is too scary. If it is a series of coincidences and short-sighted choices, then we have to admit that fixing things might take long, slow, steady, and (worst of all) boring work. It won't be exciting and dramatic, and we won't be so important, anymore. After all, if you're the victim of a vast conspiracy, you're important. If you're just a cork bobbing on an uncaring ocean...
 
I was part of an effort in the 90's which was endeavoring to obtain legal rights for farmers to grow commercial hemp in Canada.
We were partially successful in that we did gain the legal standing, to some degree, for farmers to do so.

I worked as the research director of one of the corporations which were allied together to do this work and in the course of my research I found many strange things in the archives.

Analogy works best here, it is like coming into a house/building and going into the mechanical room and finding all kinds of wires or pipes leading to several places where there is evidence of some manner of equipment being there, but it has been removed. Yet the things leading to it were not, and that is very revealing to a researcher.
Someone or a group of someone's, during the 40's and 50's spent time going to all the university and public libraries in Canada and they removed a significant chunk of data which had to do with specific aspects of the hemp industry.But they were not thorough enough as they left a lot of loose threads which could be found by a careful and thorough researcher....which I found.
This data we also presented to the administrators of the bureau of dangerous drugs (who issues the licenses for cannabis in Canada) and they were clearly embarrassed by the presentment, but would not admit anything (of course), but we were not seeking admission which would not be achieved, rather just the gesture, which indicated that our group knew what had happened.

So to say that there are no conspiracies....one has to wonder as to the motives of the person who would say such things.
Conspiracies are global and eternal...every day we people conspire together, sometimes for the good (hopefully) and sometimes to the detriment (unfortunately), but conspire we will.
It is impossible not to.
And just like there are economies of scale....so too there are conspiracies of scale.
 
I saw in a movie that hemp was suppressed by the USA but also that it was suppressed for different reasons by different politicians at different times. Taft had his reasons, and another after him had other reasons. Another politician nearly legalized it but gave up in the face of conservative opposition. Over the last century there was no blood oath or ancient vampire culture trying to destroy hemp but politicians and businesses doing what they thought was expedient for them. That's a realistic string of events that can be explained without need for a secret police.

Ok, now look at the KGB from the USSR. KGB was a classic true conspiracy, and it was full of believers. It started big, burned hot and eventually burned out; because the people inside stopped believing they were making the world a better place. Maybe they decided there was more to life than just being in a secret police organization. The old head of the KGB is now the prime minister of Russia and working to improve his homeland. He still relies upon some oppressive police forces but probably could never reinstate the old KGB again even if he wanted to. I am not saying that I'm his buddy, but pointing out how short-lived a conspiracy is. It burns itself up from the inside.
 
That's fine...you know what they say about opinions__________________.
You are just surfing the rim of the rabbit hole.
 
Namaste Dream,

thank you for the post.

Dream said:
Ok, now look at the KGB from the USSR. KGB was a classic true conspiracy, and it was full of believers. It started big, burned hot and eventually burned out; because the people inside stopped believing they were making the world a better place.
Click to expand...

i would beg to differ. for a more detailed and through investigation of the NKVD/KGB/FSV i would suggest two texts: The Sword and Shield:Secret History of the KGB and it's operations in Europe and North America and The World Was Going Our Way: Secret History of the KGB in the Third World.

in short, the KGB never lost the faith in their mission of being the sword and shield of the international revolution, the political leadership of the CPSU lost their faith which precipitated the coup attempt of 1991 with the unforeseen consequence of hastening rather than forestalling the breakup of the Soviet Union.

Maybe they decided there was more to life than just being in a secret police organization.
Click to expand...

they never viewed themselves in such a manner, this is a strictly non Communist view of the security organs of the party, so to speak.

The old head of the KGB is now the prime minister of Russia and working to improve his homeland. He still relies upon some oppressive police forces but probably could never reinstate the old KGB again even if he wanted to. I am not saying that I'm his buddy, but pointing out how short-lived a conspiracy is. It burns itself up from the inside.
Click to expand...

the KGB was renamed the FSV after the dissolution of the Union however it still considers itself the modern incarnation of the NKVD which became the KGB which is now the FSV, and throughout their history they have been known as "chekists" irrespective of their current iteration.

with regards to the ability of the FSV to engage in KGB style actions, i would suggest a close study of the situation between Georgia and Russia wherein you will see, in my view, the unmistakable hand of Line K and Line F units of the FSV.

metta,

~v
 
shawn said:
So to say that there are no conspiracies....one has to wonder as to the motives of the person who would say such things.
Click to expand...

Once again you descend to personal attacks. Why the need to do this if your case really is so solid? Ad hominem is a cheap rhetorical trick used when one can't prove ones point on its own merits.
 
Shawn said:
That's fine...you know what they say about opinions__________________.
You are just surfing the rim of the rabbit hole.
Click to expand...
:p and it probably goes for my opinions. A lot of posters in here know more than me about almost any topic on which I post. I'm mainly here to work things out for myself, though I have gone on a couple of tirades about various topics and enjoy pseudo-haiku'ing etc.

Also, I think there is more than one white rabbit and more than one rabbit hole. How would you like yours, Alice? One lump or two?

Vajradhara said:
i would beg to differ. for a more detailed and through investigation of the NKVD/KGB/FSV i would suggest two texts: The Sword and Shield:Secret History of the KGB and it's operations in Europe and North America and The World Was Going Our Way: Secret History of the KGB in the Third World.

in short, the KGB never lost the faith in their mission of being the sword and shield of the international revolution, the political leadership of the CPSU lost their faith which precipitated the coup attempt of 1991 with the unforeseen consequence of hastening rather than forestalling the breakup of the Soviet Union.
Click to expand...
As I hope I indicated briefly before, I appreciate your sharing of this information with everyone, Vajradhara. Especially thanks for the abstract summary for those reading the thread and for me.

Vajradhara said:
they never viewed themselves in such a manner, this is a strictly non Communist view of the security organs of the party, so to speak.
Click to expand...
Ok

Vajradhara said:
the KGB was renamed the FSV after the dissolution of the Union however it still considers itself the modern incarnation of the NKVD which became the KGB which is now the FSV, and throughout their history they have been known as "chekists" irrespective of their current iteration.

with regards to the ability of the FSV to engage in KGB style actions, i would suggest a close study of the situation between Georgia and Russia wherein you will see, in my view, the unmistakable hand of Line K and Line F units of the FSV.
Click to expand...
This modifies my example considerably. I wonder if it should affect my view of conspiracy, but it could still fall into the same general frame. Can you offer a simpler opinion on these organizations as to what motivated them and for how long? To me it seems like a conspiracy requires some kind of positive goal or it will be short-lived, like an engine needing some kind of fuel. I am thinking of the greed and viciousness as an engine but not as a fuel.
 
Dogbrain said:
Once again you descend to personal attacks. Why the need to do this if your case really is so solid? Ad hominem is a cheap rhetorical trick used when one can't prove ones point on its own merits.
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I was speaking in general, but you take it personal....very revealing.
also:
If you don't want to scrap then why wade in swinging.
You came in with the chip on you shoulder and then wonder why someone may wish to knock it off.
Want to begin again perhaps?
I am willing to be reasonable........if you are.
 
Namaste Dream,

thank you for the post.

Dream said:
This modifies my example considerably. I wonder if it should affect my view of conspiracy, but it could still fall into the same general frame. Can you offer a simpler opinion on these organizations as to what motivated them and for how long? To me it seems like a conspiracy requires some kind of positive goal or it will be short-lived, like an engine needing some kind of fuel. I am thinking of the greed and viciousness as an engine but not as a fuel.
Click to expand...

i would say that, in some sense, each of those organizations have somewhat different primary motivations as they each arose in very different historical surroundings. the NKVD was established three weeks after the Bolshevik revolution in 1917 with the threefold purpose of protecting the revolution from counter-revolution and reactionary elements; penetration and subversion of the White Guards (the royalists and other groups that were opposed to the Red Guards or communists) and payback and elimination of class enemies.

the KGB, by contrast, didn't have to concern itself with the White Guard and thus found that aspect of it's policy replaced by Stalin's campaign to assassinate dissidents and class enemies in foreign lands, in addition to defending the revolution and stopping all forms of "ideological subversion." the KGB primarily focused its attentions on The Main Adversary and her allies (US, Britain, France, Germany and Japan).

the FSV arose after the aborted coup led by KBG hardliners that wished to use force to quell the uprisings in the break away Soviet republics and thus much of their mission was focused upon installing local governments that would still be loyal to Moscow. seeing as how the "revolution" was finished in Russia and it's satellites the FSV found a new "cause to defend" which is Russian Nationalism. though the Russian society had changed by the time of the coup attempt (Gorbechev remarked that if they had tried it two years earlier that it would probably have succeeded) a great many of the bureaucratic party instutitions have found difficulty in adjusting. as much as the FSV would like to disavow the often brutal and horrific past of it's previous incarnations, the Center (FSV headquarters) is currently lobbying to have the statue of the NKVD founder replaced outside it's headquarters.

with regards to conspiracy... as Adam Smith so astutely observed:

men of the same trade seldom get together, even for diversion and merriment, except that it ends in a conspiracy against the public.

and.. of course... there are some things which are better done in secret, as George Washington was wont to say with respect to his spies and intelligence network during the birth of the United States.

metta,

~v
 
shawn said:
I was speaking in general, but you take it personal....very revealing.
Click to expand...

No, you were using another dishonest rhetorical trick. The "response to nobody". It's a sign of cowardice.

I have little tolerance for paranoid delusions and mindless cut-and-paste.
 
Dogbrain said:
No, you were using another dishonest rhetorical trick. The "response to nobody". It's a sign of cowardice.

I have little tolerance for paranoid delusions and mindless cut-and-paste.
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Aren't you a pissy one.
And insulting as well, very broad-minded of you.

I suggest theories which are intriguing and you call me paranoid and delusional ....and mindless cut and paste wow....Chuck you farlie...sincerely.
 
shawn said:
Aren't you a pissy one.
And insulting as well, very broad-minded of you.

I suggest theories which are intriguing and you call me paranoid and delusional ....and mindless cut and paste wow....Chuck you farlie...sincerely.
Click to expand...

You yammer on over and over about imagined conspiracies behind everything and paste enormous amounts of someone else's writing. You fit the bill.
 
/Begin Moderator

please remember to respect the forum rules folks, personal insults are doubleplusungood.

/End Moderator
 
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