Mosque attacks in Lahore

[The Undecided]

Firstly I must say that I am not a Muslim, however, I am a student of all religions and a seeker of spiritual truth. I am posting this thread on the Islam forum because I would like to hear the Muslim perspective on the following. After hearing about the attacks on the two mosques in Lahore I became very sad. Apart from the many unnecessary deaths, the fact that the attacks took place in mosques is upsetting, holy places such as these where people go to worship, as they were when the attacks took place, should be the last place where violence takes place. I understand that the Ahmadi sect are not considered as Muslim by many in the Muslim world, because of their belief in a supposed prophet who came after Muhammed, and that this sect is banned from calling themselves Muslim in Pakistan, but surely there is room in this world for freedom of faith. Also, I would say that the people who attacked these people for being 'blasphemous' could not be considered as muslim, as I think a true muslim would not attack anyone while they attended their place of worship to pray. Referring here to the Qur'an 2:191. I am interested in opinions on the matter.

Peace be upon ALL. TU

 

[Muslimwoman]

It's a very sad state of affairs but many of these attacks are not based on religious beliefs, they are political in nature and of course in that region often tribal. Today gunmen in Pakistan killed a number of people in an hospital ... I can't begin to explain that level of hatred or insanity, because I don't understand it.

 

[c0de]

..

You can try and blame the leaders of these groups and say that they are the ones who are corrupting the youths, but that isn't enough. The youth buy into it willingly, because they also want to feel the power of infallibility. Giving divine mandate to your own side's makes you infallible. And once any man starts to think he is infallible, that is just a recipe for megalomania.

Ultimately, it is just man attempting to not just be God, but supersede Him. This is the basic problem with not just organized religion (even the Dalai Lamas of the world are all political actors) but humanistic endeavors as well. Whether you put on the robes of the church or the supposed objectivity of scientific thinking, the attitude of infallibility is the same, and that is always what results in the justification for the total eradication of the other side, which becomes a dehumanized abomination.

As an aside, I have many friends and family in Lahore and I didn't even hear about this, because no one cares anymore. People in Pakistan are immunized against such occurrences. (Israelis compared to the Pakistanis are a bunch of whining crybabies in this regard.)

Part of mother's side of the family is ahmedi as well and we have arguments with them over religion if we meet in a family gathering. It's usually in good spirits and a little funny and entertaining.

No one actually accuses the other side of not being Muslim, but this understanding is not part of the society at large. I have run into people who have said to me that Ahmedies are not Muslim, and I have started arguing with them defending Ahmedies.... only to argue with the Ahmedies when I meet them about being idiots for creating their own sect, which is like two steps away from being a cult...

 

[Muslimwoman]

c0de what do you think could bring peace to Pakistan? Have there always been such tensions between religions or is this quite a modern phenomenon?

 

[OAT]

As I see it, as long as there are humans, there will always be differences of opinions and therefore disagreement. Why?

Because
(1) each of us have only a limited amount of knowledge
(2) based on the limited knowledge, each of us come of our own conclusion
(3) each of us think that our conclusion is the right one and is a fact and not an opinion

Add in a dose of intolerance of a different view together with our imperfect character and you get what you see so often in this forum, let alone in the world.

If only we could all agree to disagree and let it be ... but that is wishful thinking I guess.

 

[c0de]

my internet cut out right yesterday as i was about to post this and in the mean time i learned that one of my mother's cousin was about to go to that mosque for Jummah prayers with his son and only avoided it due to a court hearing (he's a lawyer)...

Have there always been such tensions between religions or is this quite a modern phenomenon?

Well, the only reason Pakistan was created is because of religious tensions. This was even true of the area before the Muslims arrived.

c0de what do you think could bring peace to Pakistan?

The only solution that I can think of is a Dues ex Machina... If you think that's too cynical, i'll state the problems and you can try and come up with a solution.

Pakistan is not a homogeneous country (like Iran to the West); there is no tradition of democracy (like India to the East); and our people just have no trust in the central authorities (like China, to the North).

All the major ethnicities in Pakistan are fiercely independent and couldn't care less about the centralizing authorities. (Even the British gave these people their space) and it doesn't help that leaders in Pakistan are usually people like Asif Zardari, (a crook of epic proportions). You can also forget about the hope of some grand romantic revolution or renaissance, as people in Pakistan just don't care enough to get up and do anything (civil society is very limited, as far as I am aware.)

Geographically, we didn't get our fair share in the 1947 partition, leaving our country at a serious disadvantage strategically. But because of the above problems, we didn't even do anything worthwhile with the resources that we did get. For example, we completely wasted our water by not building the dams (that we took out the massive international loans for) and now we are screwed energy wise. Also, we left our irrigation system completely undeveloped (and now even our agriculture is threatened as global warming dries up the glaciers that feed our rivers).

Honestly, just the fact that Pakistan has managed to survive as long as it has is a feat that we should be proud of, as everyone expected us to collapse within 6 months of our independence (in fact, many people are sure that was Lord Mountbatten and Nehru's plan).

 

[Muslimwoman]

Thanks for your thoughts c0de.

Once again I am reminded of my childhood years in Singapore. They had a similar problem and fighting between a number of religions. Rather than removing God from the machine (knowing it would be met with resistence) they chose to change the hearts of people and make religion a personal issue. They did this by blasting out the national anthem every half hour on the radio. National propaganda was posted everywhere .... it took a few years but after time people started to think of themselves as Singaporeans rather than tribes or religions.

Perhaps Pakistan needs to find an identity that can embrace all Pakistani's.

I know it sounds simplistic but it has worked before in other small countries so perhaps it could work again? Of course Pakistan would need a real leader to emerge, one without bias and a real desire to see Pakistan succeed.

 

[c0de]

Rather than removing God from the machine (knowing it would be met with resistence)

im confused... Dues Ex Machina is using an outside factor as a plot device to come and fix all the problems.

Once again I am reminded of my childhood years in Singapore. They had a similar problem and fighting between a number of religions. they chose to change the hearts of people and make religion a personal issue.

i went to singapore as a kid and i would never have figured they had such issues.

Perhaps Pakistan needs to find an identity that can embrace all Pakistani's.

I know it sounds simplistic but it has worked before in other small countries so perhaps it could work again? Of course Pakistan would need a real leader to emerge, one without bias and a real desire to see Pakistan succeed.

That's basically a Deus ex machina scenario...
since the people of Pakistan are themselves the problem
so such a leader would be an "outside" factor.

and i doubt that's gonna happen...

but ive been wrong before.

 

[Dogbrain]

It really does all come down to political power. So long as the government makes any alliance with any religion, this sort of crap will continue to occur.

 

[Muslimwoman]

That's basically a Deus ex machina scenario...

Are you saying remove God from the political machine or from the societal machine (I assumed the latter)?

 

[c0de]

Are you saying remove God from the political machine or from the societal machine (I assumed the latter)?

there has been a misunderstanding.

I am not suggesting either.
God is not part of the machine.

"dues ex machina" is just a plot device
used to solve all the problems in the story.
it is considered lazy and bad story telling
as the solution does not naturally follow from
the flow of the plot.

I was only saying that the only solution I can think of is
some factor that just magically comes and solves
everything... Of course, that is just bad story telling &
I doubt its gonna happen.

 

[Muslimwoman]

Aha, apologies for my ignorance, it's not a term I have heard before.

History has shown a number of leaders who have emerged to bring calm to choas ... let's hope one appears for Pakistan soon.

 

[Al Debaran]

It will be a tall & challenging order. On the one hand there is a US backed Millitary machine & Government, vs the Talliban & ultimately Saudi backed religious right. I pray for better days ahead.