Nukes vs Science

Dream

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Nuclear weapons are a threat to everything we value. I have said and still say that I hope a new technology makes it possible for any nation to completely nullify the capabilities of nukes. That may not seem likely, but to me it still seems possible. I think we had better hope so. Just my opinion, but even though nukes have been a boon to diplomacy they are just too destructive, and it would be better for the world to struggle on without such dangerous items.
 
Agreed.
They want to put a nuclear generator in the province I live in and it is such a monumentally stupid idea.
There are better and proven technologies which replace such dangerous and outdated tech.
All they do is boil water....wow. how freakin brilliant.

Dense plasma focus fusion is a viable and proven option which uses boron and is vastly cheaper, generates electricity directly, (not indirectly via a steam turbine) and does not generate dangerous waste.
There is no power shortage, merely an intelligence shortage.
 
Dense plasma focus fusion is a viable and proven option

It is neither viable nor proven. There have been some promising experimental results, but nothing to let any rational person claim it would be viable or proven for large-scale electricity production.
 
That is interesting, although really I'm not referring to nuclear power but to nuclear weapons. I have a desire to see a lot more anti-nuclear weapons. I'm talking about things like anti-missile satellites, anti-missile missiles, and things like that. Perhaps an open source anti-nuke project with international support could someday nullify the threat of inter-ballistic missiles. Making nuclear missiles and bombs a null thread would provide political leverage for those with large stockpiles to get rid of their large stockpiles. The goal should be to take away their potency in war in order to remove the threat of their use. Let diplomacy find other ways to work. Sorry if that wasn't clear from the first post!
 
That is interesting, although really I'm not referring to nuclear power but to nuclear weapons. I have a desire to see a lot more anti-nuclear weapons. I'm talking about things like anti-missile satellites, anti-missile missiles, and things like that.

You are presuming that it will be a large government that is most likely to use a nuclear weapon and not a political NGO, like Al Qaeda...
 
It is neither viable nor proven. There have been some promising experimental results, but nothing to let any rational person claim it would be viable or proven for large-scale electricity production.
Go and talk with Eric Lehrner:
Eric Lerner - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I am certain he knows far more than you.
He did a lot of development on this idea with DARPA.
He has the data.
Let me know how that goes for you.....ok.
I can always find out, as I have talked with him.
 
Dogbrain said:
You are presuming that it will be a large government that is most likely to use a nuclear weapon and not a political NGO, like Al Qaeda...
You have a good point, although actually I do not presume that. I think the power of nukes could be nullified at least for the most part, and that would pressure the larger governments to mostly disarm. Why keep the weapons around if they're not useful anymore? As for smaller scale use, like you mentioned, that will require more finesse. Still, if the larger nations have no use for nukes, then warheads will be harder to obtain.

To me, the biggest problem is that our generation has grown accustomed to having nukes around, since they discourage full scale wars. Well, that is true; however that is because they threaten to end all life on earth! Regret won't be enough to save us if a bunch of nukes are ever activated. I say we rely once again upon skillful diplomacy and blood, and those are better alternative deterrents to war. Anyway, pretty soon I hope that nuclear missiles will no longer be practical, because nations will chip in to huge antimissile systems and other nuclear protection schemes.
 
Namaste Dream,

thank you for the post.

admittedly, the international situation has changed a great deal and will continue to do so so any response that i make will, necessarily, seem dated or out of synch. nevertheless...

Nuclear weapons are a threat to everything we value.

i'll allow, for the sake of discussion, that we value the same things even though i don't actually hold that view :) in any case... let's frame our discussion circa 1986, for just a few moments. during that year, the Soviet Union was convinced that the United States was preparing it's people for a nuclear first strike against the USSR and, to be ready, the USSR sought desperately for intelligence which would show what the West was up to. a military exercise named Able Archer had taken place every year since the mid 1970's and it was an exercise wherein NATO practiced what it would due in event of a USSR first strike. when the West (the British) finally had solid intelligence on what was going on in the Kremlin an extraordinary briefing was given wherein the Joint Chief of Staff of the Pentagon explained that even if the USSR had a successful first strike the US and NATO had a sufficient amount of weapons to ensure a second strike. when Visili Mitrokin was finally exfiltrated to England with all of his information from the KGB archives (where he was the senior archivist) it was revealed that it was only this very fact (a second strike capability) which prevented the USSR from a pre-emptive attack. Oleg Gordievsky made the same claims but had no documentation (he was a GRU colonel not KBG) and it widely disputed until the Mitrokin Archive made it to England.

so, in this narrow and specific instance, nuclear weapons did, indeed, safeguard something that we both value: living :)

essentially, however, the threat that any weapon poses is directly proportionate to the intention of those that wield them and this concern isn't new by any means. did you know that when the crossbow was invented there was a general outcry that the weapon was so powerful that it would end up killing everybody....turns out.. we got better ;)

I have said and still say that I hope a new technology makes it possible for any nation to completely nullify the capabilities of nukes. That may not seem likely, but to me it still seems possible. I think we had better hope so.

i think that if some nation develops the ability to stop sub atomic reactions we'll see a weapon of such unparralled power that it will ensure the hegemony of whichever nation develops it first. imagine being able simply stop, say, the simple combustion of gasoline in an enemies country?! what nationstate could take the chance? i think that i'm pretty strongly on the other side of that view ;)

Just my opinion, but even though nukes have been a boon to diplomacy they are just too destructive, and it would be better for the world to struggle on without such dangerous items.

therein lies the rub. is it better to have weapons which, if used, kill millions or not have weapons of such a nature which ensures that hundreds of thousands get killed due to a lack of effective deterrents?

given that the genie is out of the bottle, so to speak, and isn't likely to go back in i'd say that a political solution to the potential use of nuclear weapons should be sought. i'm singularly unaware of a technology that humans have discovered that was subsequently abandoned without something to take its place and given that nuclear reactions are deal with fairly small bits of fundamental matter i'm betting that we'll have this technology around for the remainder of the human species existence.

if that is so, then it is in everyones best interest to develop a compassionate and easy manner towards others and the world at large so that the causes of disagreement betwixt beings may be decreased to such a time as wars will be unknown. interestingly enough, the Buddha proclaims that just such a time will happen shortly before the arising of the next Buddha in this world system... but that's a subject for another thread ;)

metta,

~v
 
Vajradhara said:
i'll allow, for the sake of discussion, that we value the same things even though i don't actually hold that view
My reaction is surprise, and I'm looking for an adequate quip to express the interrogative.

so, in this narrow and specific instance, nuclear weapons did, indeed, safeguard something that we both value: living
ah ha! We have something in common.

essentially, however, the threat that any weapon poses is directly proportionate to the intention of those that wield them and this concern isn't new by any means. did you know that when the crossbow was invented there was a general outcry that the weapon was so powerful that it would end up killing everybody....turns out.. we got better
This point about the threat level is very good. What do you think though about how changeable people and nations are? Our threat level may be low now, but what about in the future?

The crossbow was a seriously powerful weapon, although I read somewhere that it was the muskette that really sparked the beginning of modern diplomacy. Winning became a matter of numbers rather than skill, much like it is now with the nukes. Now instead of fighting we break out our supercomputers and number-crunch battle simulations. That people thought crossbows were the end of the world is very funny, though I feel nukes require a lot more faith in humanity. They are not as funny.

i think that if some nation develops the ability to stop sub atomic reactions we'll see a weapon of such unparralled power that it will ensure the hegemony of whichever nation develops it first. imagine being able simply stop, say, the simple combustion of gasoline in an enemies country?! what nationstate could take the chance? i think that i'm pretty strongly on the other side of that view
It is unlikely that any human made device could (at a distance) ever halt a nuclear critical mass from chain reaction; but if ever there is one I do not think *they* will tell us it exists.

given that the genie is out of the bottle, so to speak, and isn't likely to go back in i'd say that a political solution to the potential use of nuclear weapons should be sought. i'm singularly unaware of a technology that humans have discovered that was subsequently abandoned without something to take its place and given that nuclear reactions are deal with fairly small bits of fundamental matter i'm betting that we'll have this technology around for the remainder of the human species existence.
I think it will be around for the remainder of human existence. I suspect a political solution to nuclear war involves keeping lots of nukes at the ready. While not convinced, I suppose with you that could lead to worldwide peace as you mentioned and usher in a new Buddha. Do you see this as something that you would influence if you could?
 
Namaste Dream,

thank you for the post.

My reaction is surprise, and I'm looking for an adequate quip to express the interrogative.

ah ha! We have something in common.

common ground! i knew it! if only it were so easy for beings in a general sense to find this same common ground.

This point about the threat level is very good. What do you think though about how changeable people and nations are? Our threat level may be low now, but what about in the future?

my view of these sorts of things is that they generally run in cycles, with peaks and valleys and, in that sort of view i suppose, the trick is not to get to carried away by either.

The crossbow was a seriously powerful weapon, although I read somewhere that it was the muskette that really sparked the beginning of modern diplomacy. Winning became a matter of numbers rather than skill, much like it is now with the nukes. Now instead of fighting we break out our supercomputers and number-crunch battle simulations. That people thought crossbows were the end of the world is very funny, though I feel nukes require a lot more faith in humanity. They are not as funny.

but we don't launch nukes.. we do go about fighting and all of that... just look about the globe and you'll note that there are 7 conflicts that have over 1000 deaths a year and a whole slew of low intensity conflicts which, at times, overlap the high intensity conflicts.

about the most that can be said of nuclear weapons is that their potential for use against a country prevents that country from using it's own the so-called "mutually assured annihilation" which is a pretty gloomy world view in my opinion.

in terms of nationstates my thinking on it is that the most likely exchange of nuclear strikes will be between India and China over their disputed border regions and traditional, ancient, rivalry.

It is unlikely that any human made device could (at a distance) ever halt a nuclear critical mass from chain reaction; but if ever there is one I do not think *they* will tell us it exists.

i suspect the testing of such a device would be fairly noticeable but i would tend to agree that secret weapons would be kept..well.. secret :)

I think it will be around for the remainder of human existence. I suspect a political solution to nuclear war involves keeping lots of nukes at the ready. While not convinced, I suppose with you that could lead to worldwide peace as you mentioned and usher in a new Buddha. Do you see this as something that you would influence if you could?

there are some Buddhists that hold that very thought but it is not one which i share. on an abstract level i suppose that i would be interested in working towards the arising of the next Buddha however the Suttas are pretty clear about all of that sort of thing and the time for the next Buddhas arising is still thousands of years off.

on a more mundane level, i am keenly interested in working towards world peace in the sense that beings are free of fear and able to live peaceful lives of happy productivity and all the things that beings generally tend to deem worthwhile.

metta,

~v
 
Nuclear weapons are a threat to everything we value. I have said and still say that I hope a new technology makes it possible for any nation to completely nullify the capabilities of nukes. That may not seem likely, but to me it still seems possible. I think we had better hope so. Just my opinion, but even though nukes have been a boon to diplomacy they are just too destructive, and it would be better for the world to struggle on without such dangerous items.

Although I would like to tell you otherwise, it seems people themselves are literally unable to visualise a world WITHOUT them, it's sort of sad that millions of people have been tricked into thinking we all need those things.

However, I do take their point that when something is invented, it is almost impossible to reverse that now - nukes are here to stay.

The UK surely does not need them, the money for Trident 2 could ensure that no cuts were needed...for anything!

I would sooner we spent that money on better things, but it seems that the powers that be appear to believe that this small island needs nukes, just on the off chance that maybe another nuke holder wants to strike, which I consider VERY unlikely. And, of course, these weapons are no use in modern warfare, what can they do against bus and train bombs, they are no use against the suicide bomber..

We would be better of spending a fraction of the cost on better intelligence, that's the way to combat modern terrorism.

There is the argument that if you have nukes it does act as a big stick to any nation that might wish to invade you (we got paranoid after Germany), and I suppose that does have some merit, but when you think of the potential for these things to get into the hands of theocratic lunatics (imagine Palin + nukes + her end of days orgasms..)...:eek:

If anything, I feel you might see a shift from nukes to use of biological weapons, even if there use is presently banned/restricted.

Bans (it would seem) are there to be broken.
 
enlightenment said:
If anything, I feel you might see a shift from nukes to use of biological weapons, even if there use is presently banned/restricted.

Bans (it would seem) are there to be broken.

i absolutely agree with this assessment. Jane's Defense Weekly has a very gloomy report on the proliferation of chemical and biological weapons given their wide availability and relatively low cost to weaponize.

the bans are laughable which is exactly what most countries do and they try to get around it by claiming it's medical research so that they may know what to do in case some *other* asshats decide to use their weapons on us. to a certain extent, i think it's actually a responsibility of the government to do that very thing and i think the tricky part of that is ensuring adequate oversight to ensure that such legitimate research isn't turned into a covert weapons program.

it's not too unlike how the Japanese subvert the international whaling ban.
 
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