unanswered question

[Ahanu]

Hello,

My unanswered question begins with the Baha'i belief in the Virgin Birth. Here is what Bahai.us has written:

Do Baha’is believe in Jesus' virgin birth?
Yes. Baha’is believe, as the Bible teaches, that Jesus had a virgin birth. God’s power is beyond any limitation whatsoever. For an Omnipotent God, nothing is impossible, including – should He so decide – momentarily altering or transcending any one of the laws He established for the normal operation of His physical creation. (Responding: 101 Questions often asked of Baha’is)
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Since this is the case, why reject the resurrection, or interpret passages from the bible, like healings of leprosy and raising the dead, as mainly of spiritual importance, whereas Christianity interprets these passages in accordance to their material (and spiritual) importance?

Yes, I know Baha'is accept miracles. That's what's been on my mind.

At the same time, Baha'is are saying the Second Law of Thermodynamics can be violated by the intervention of God. This scientific law states why processes (such as metal rusting) can only go in one direction. Metal doesn't unrust. Things don't undecay. Especially Lazarus' decaying body (John 11:1-44). God intervenes. Now we can say that this literally happened, because, well, God can intervene.

Key word: can.

I'm against these types of miracles. My brother has CP (Cerebral Palsy). People die; my father died last year due to leukemia. Why doesn't God intervene? What makes healing these tragedies possible for God's Manifestation, yet impossible (I guess?) for others? In my opinion, not even a Manifestation of God could cure these tragedies--materially, that is. To put it simply: that's just not the way reality works.

 

[arthra]

Death is not our "enemy"..

Ahanu,

Welcome to the Baha'i Forum!

By the title of the thread you've started here "unanswered question" implies only one question.. but you've offered more than one.. I don't know if I can satisfy some of the ambiguities here but I'll do my best and hope that we can still be friends anyway.. as I don't know you well as yet.



Ahanu wrote:

Since this is the case, why reject the resurrection, or interpret passages from the bible, like healings of leprosy and raising the dead, as mainly of spiritual importance, whereas Christianity interprets these passages in accordance to their material (and spiritual) importance?

My reply:

I see your point..actually Baha'is don't reject the resurrection of Jesus. We accept His spiritual resurrection ..and to us that is more important than a physical bodily resurrection held by most Christians.. this is of course another subject..

So let me return to the issue of the virgin birth of Jesus

Abdul-Baha is quoted if I'm not mistaken
in the book Some Answered Questions that if the virgin birth of Jesus is so important then Adam is to be even more exalted than Jesus because He had neither a biological father nor mother.

Shoghi Effendi is very clear that Baha'is accept the virgin birth. The Qur'an also accepts the virgin birth of Jesus.

You are also correct when you state:

"Yes, I know Baha'is accept miracles. That's what's been on my mind."

Ahanu wrote:

At the same time, Baha'is are saying the Second Law of Thermodynamics can be violated by the intervention of God. This scientific law states why processes (such as metal rusting) can only go in one direction. Metal doesn't unrust. Things don't undecay. Especially Lazarus' decaying body (John 11:1-44). God intervenes. Now we can say that this literally happened, because, well, God can intervene.

My reply:

I would rather suggest that a miracle can be something that is unusual and unforeseen and a blessing .. You'll have to excuse me though as I'm not a student of physics and cannot argue about the law of thermodynamics..

That there can be miracles is a part of our Faith but we do not for instance make them shall I say a doctrinal requirement for belief.. that is we do not require Baha'is to accept certain miracles as many groups do.

Ahanu:

Key word: can.

I'm against these types of miracles. My brother has CP (Cerebral Palsy). People die; my father died last year due to leukemia. Why doesn't God intervene?

My reply to you my friend,

One of the Hidden words revealed by Baha'u'llah as He walked along the banks of the Tigris River concerned death and I lovingly and whole heatedly offer it to you here:

O SON OF THE SUPREME!

I have made death a messenger of joy to thee. Wherefore dost thou grieve? I made the light to shed on thee its splendor. Why dost thou veil thyself therefrom?

~ Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words

I tell you my friend I have been by many bed sides in my time as a Social Worker and volunteer at a local hospital and in my own family as well when my dear mother and my brother in the prime of his youth passed over.. and I know what you feel and death is something that most of us would rather not entertain or welcome but Baha'u'llah has offered us a new perspective.. actually you'll find this I think in other scriptures as well..

Ahanu:

What makes healing these tragedies possible for God's Manifestation, yet impossible (I guess?) for others? In my opinion, not even a Manifestation of God could cure these tragedies--materially, that is. To put it simply: that's just not the way reality works.

My reply:

When on pilgrimage to the Holy Land many years ago I think it was ohh 1975 or there abouts I saw the scene in the prison fortress of Akka where the son of Baha'u'llah Mirza Mihdi offered up his life.. Mirza Mihdi had been praying and walking on the roof of the prison which prisoners were allowed to do on certain times of the day.. He was involved in his meditations and fell through what would be like a skylight window.. his side was pierced with a large splinter of wood. The family rushed to his side and Baha'u'llah held his son in his arms and asked him if he wanted to be restored but Mirza Mihdi said no.. He would ratehr be a sacrifice for all those who could not come into the presence of Baha'u'llah. I tell you my friend such a sacrifice was there it is compared by us to the sacrifice of the son of Abrahan and the crucifixion of Jesus..

Why do these things happen? is a worthy subject to meditate upon and pray for guidance..but death I can assure you from the many I have witnessed is not our enemy.

 

[Ahanu]

My reply:

I see your point..actually Baha'is don't reject the resurrection of Jesus. We accept His spiritual resurrection ..and to us that is more important than a physical bodily resurrection held by most Christians.. this is of course another subject..

So let me return to the issue of the virgin birth of Jesus

Abdul-Baha is quoted if I'm not mistaken
in the book Some Answered Questions that if the virgin birth of Jesus is so important then Adam is to be even more exalted than Jesus because He had neither a biological father nor mother.

Shoghi Effendi is very clear that Baha'is accept the virgin birth. The Qur'an also accepts the virgin birth of Jesus.

Let me clarify, for all of these subjects (healings, resurrections, virgin births, splitting seas, and so on) are related.

Resurrection, according to the Bab, is another expression of the doctrine of manifestation and progressive revelation. I meant resurrection in a literal, physical sense. When explaining the resurrection in Some Answered Questions, Abdul-Baha concludes with these words:

"Such is the meaning of the resurrection of Christ, and this was a true resurrection. But as the clergy have neither understood the meaning of the Gospels nor comprehended the symbols, therefore, it has been said that religion is in contradiction to science, and science in opposition to religion, as, for example, this subject of the ascension of Christ with an elemental body to the visible heaven is contrary to the science of mathematics. But when the truth of this subject becomes clear, and the symbol is explained, science in no way contradicts it; but, on the contrary, science and the intelligence affirm it."
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I have bolded the essential problem I see concerning miracles. Abdul-Baha uses science as a proof of this misinterpretation of the resurrection. This is why I mention the Second Law of Thermodynamics when referring to Lazarus' decaying body. Jesus' miracle is this: he reversed the process and returned Lazarus to brand spanking new. According to the Second Law of Thermodynamics, things go in one direction, and so Manifestations can't reverse the process of decay by simply saying, "Lazarus, rise!" My point is I'm using the same reasoning as Abdul-baha here. Science and religion are two wings of the same bird. What scientific basis are there for miracles? None.

Abdul-Baha is quoted if I'm not mistaken
in the book Some Answered Questions that if the virgin birth of Jesus is so important then Adam is to be even more exalted than Jesus because He had neither a biological father nor mother.

Shoghi Effendi is very clear that Baha'is accept the virgin birth.

Abdul-Baha also says that it's the perfections of Christ that's important. From my reading of Some Answered Questions, I don't see the need to believe in a Virgin Birth. Why is it important? Again, it's the "perfections of Christ" that's of importance. Furthermore, there's no scientific proof. Here's another quote from Abdul-Baha:

"Any religious belief which is not conformable with scientific proof and investigation is superstition, for true science is reason and reality, and religion is essentially reality and pure reason; therefore the two must correspond. Religious teaching which is at variance with science and reason is human invention and imagination unworthy of acceptance, for the antithesis and opposite of knowledge is superstition born of the ignorance of man. If we say religion is opposed to science we either lack knowledge of true science or true religion, for both are founded upon the premises and conclusions of reason and must bear its test."

​

That there can be miracles is a part of our Faith but we do not for instance make them shall I say a doctrinal requirement for belief.. that is we do not require Baha'is to accept certain miracles as many groups do.

So you're saying belief in the virgin birth is not essential for Baha'is to believe if they choose not to believe it? If so, great.

I tell you my friend I have been by many bed sides in my time as a Social Worker and volunteer at a local hospital and in my own family as well when my dear mother and my brother in the prime of his youth passed over.. and I know what you feel and death is something that most of us would rather not entertain or welcome but Baha'u'llah has offered us a new perspective.. actually you'll find this I think in other scriptures as well..

Thanks for the quote and the understanding words. What I see are different views of consolation from two opposing groups that I've been reading into.

Atheists go with an Epicurean view of death: nothingness is a consoling thought.

Baha'is view this reality as a shadow: something else exists beyond death that is even more lively than this form of existence.

Personally, I'm inclined to agree with Baha'u'llah and Abdul-baha on this point.

My reply:

When on pilgrimage to the Holy Land many years ago I think it was ohh 1975 or there abouts I saw the scene in the prison fortress of Akka where the son of Baha'u'llah Mirza Mihdi offered up his life.. Mirza Mihdi had been praying and walking on the roof of the prison which prisoners were allowed to do on certain times of the day.. He was involved in his meditations and fell through what would be like a skylight window.. his side was pierced with a large splinter of wood. The family rushed to his side and Baha'u'llah held his son in his arms and asked him if he wanted to be restored but Mirza Mihdi said no.. He would ratehr be a sacrifice for all those who could not come into the presence of Baha'u'llah. I tell you my friend such a sacrifice was there it is compared by us to the sacrifice of the son of Abrahan and the crucifixion of Jesus..

I've read this story in the past, and while it's touching and shocking that this tragedy happened without warning, I don't agree that Baha'u'llah could restore his son to physical health.

Why do these things happen? is a worthy subject to meditate upon and pray for guidance..

Indeed.

 

[Ahanu]

To sum up my view of the virgin birth, I think that to accept this belief makes belief in any other miracle, whether it's fire falling down from heaven, raising the dead, healing leprosy, teleportation, making the sun stand still, burning bushes, divine retributions through earthquakes and hurricanes, and so on . . .

believable

in a literal, physical sense,

of course.

 

[arthra]

You seem to have access to the Writings so I don't have anything more to add!

Allah'u'Abha..!