Yes ,Jesus ate with sinners and drank with sinners which is true.These people needed to hear his message concerning the good news of the kingdom of God.Yet they would have to change there lifestyle to inherit it.They had to repent of there sins ask forgive and try not to do them no more.Just like us in modern times.Jesus died for all of us to have a chance at salvation.We as christians have to try our best to quit sinning and when when do stumble ask for forgiveness from our hearts .Jesus gave his perfect life so sinners like me and you can have a chance at salvation.Please read 1st Corinthians 5:9-13 .If a person is trying to change you help them but if a person is not you don't associate with them .No disrespect but if you are a homosexual you must change and if the religion you are associated with says gay marriage is okay you need to get out from it because it is a false religion.Thats why you need to read Romans 1:25 -32.All I ask is read those scriptures and search your heart.Not trying to preach but the truth is tough for some people to take and people who are saying homosexuals being married is okay in Gods eye is beliveing a lie.I don't speak for God the bible does and you must read it and pray.
Jesus and the sinners he associated with....
- Thread starter bruce
- Start date
Mus Zibii
QUID EST VERITAS
- Messages
- 469
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 0
I'm going to pretend not to hear that until the last five seconds of my life. Take that Jehovah! Wooooo!
But seriously...
First of all, where is this vast list of sins that include not being of one denomination or another?
Secondly, why is vice (a term that implies the suffer-er is INDEED suffering without the threat of hellfire) considered so trivial by God that it can be simply dismissed with faith, and yet so offensive that it deserves eternal agony (or whatever the Jehovah's Witness equivalent is) at the same time?
Methinks God didn't think this through. Six days was not enough time!
But seriously...
First of all, where is this vast list of sins that include not being of one denomination or another?
Secondly, why is vice (a term that implies the suffer-er is INDEED suffering without the threat of hellfire) considered so trivial by God that it can be simply dismissed with faith, and yet so offensive that it deserves eternal agony (or whatever the Jehovah's Witness equivalent is) at the same time?
Methinks God didn't think this through. Six days was not enough time!
Mus Zibii
QUID EST VERITAS
- Messages
- 469
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 0
This is where Jesus and Paul seem to differ. What if Christ had not visited Paul, and converted him by force? Would it have been 'meet' that he be beheaded as he eventually was?
Apparently so. Methinks Paul should've taken some time to consider himself.
Oh, and that you deny the divinity of Jesus would make you a heretic to Paul.
The Gospels recount how the Jesus was repeatedly criticised for hanging out with "low-lifes" (paraphrase). Funny how Jesus didn't seem to value the opinion of religious authority.
Btw - you pick on homosexuality as a sin, but I seem to ermember that judgement was one as well. Jesus implicitly spoke about that - but he never commented on gay love. Maybe you should read the Gospels again, as you seem to have missed a few passages.
Btw - you pick on homosexuality as a sin, but I seem to ermember that judgement was one as well. Jesus implicitly spoke about that - but he never commented on gay love. Maybe you should read the Gospels again, as you seem to have missed a few passages.
kiwimac
God is NOT about Fear
Jesus never speaks of Homosexuality. He never condemns those sinners with whom he eats and drinks and fellowships, instead by the love he shows them he shows a better way.
It is the carping criticism of the religious authorities who see nothing of value in these folk that he condemns most profoundly.
Kiwimac
It is the carping criticism of the religious authorities who see nothing of value in these folk that he condemns most profoundly.
Kiwimac
Q
Quesocoatl
Guest
First off, I, for one, am not very concerned with Paul of Tarsus' take on the Gospel. He neither knew Jesus personally nor the peoples unto which he preached. His private letters to the religious hierarchy of the time are given more "airplay" by the Church than anything Jesus of Nazareth ever said and more space in the New Testament than any of the Gospels, canonized or otherwise.bruce said:
Paul's letters have everyone stepping over cracks all over again and that isn't even remotely representative of the message I got from the Gospel.
Those "sinners" are no more and no less than the remaining 11 Tribes of Israel. Paul was from JUDAH's tribe...and, more or less, a politically-correct form of vigilante recruiting officer for the central Roman army, upon following his stint as Chief Dungeonmaster over the Christians.
Rome was expanding......Paul was their gargoyle and, whether or not his faith in Christ was bonafide....he is NOT Jesus. And not my master. If Saint Peter founded the Catholic Church why, then, are his writings not more readily available to the public?
Read what you want to read.....and not what people tell you to read because
if we are truly "free" .....then we don't NEED anyone to intercede between us and God.
However, if you choose to rely on an intercessor (Priest...Patron Saint etc.), let it be of your own volition ..and not Paul's or anyone else's...but your own.
Please excuse me for preaching......sick of this "Paul said this Paul said that" crap. False Prophet, as far as I'm concerned.
(Incidentally, my ministry is based around the sacrament of Communion. Nothing more or less. The ceremony speaks for itself.)
Abogado del Diablo
Ferally Decent
Jesus didn't just hang out with sinners . . . he sinned!
Example1: John 5:5-18; Matt 12:1-13 - Jesus breaks the Sabbath:
5Then Jesus said to him, "Get up! Pick up your mat and walk." 9At once the man was cured; he picked up his mat and walked.
The day on which this took place was a Sabbath, 10and so the Jews said to the man who had been healed, "It is the Sabbath; the law forbids you to carry your mat."
11But he replied, "The man who made me well said to me, 'Pick up your mat and walk.' "
12So they asked him, "Who is this fellow who told you to pick it up and walk?"
13The man who was healed had no idea who it was, for Jesus had slipped away into the crowd that was there.
14Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, "See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you." 15The man went away and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.
16So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews persecuted him. 17Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." 18For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
Example 2: Matt 7:18-19 - Jesus repudiates the Kosher law
17After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18"Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? 19For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.")
Example 3: Matt 10:34-36; 12:46-50; Luke 14:26 - Honoring one's parents? . . . "Fuggedaboudit", says Jesus
Matt 12: 46While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you." 48He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" 49Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. 50For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."
Luke 14: 26"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple.
Example1: John 5:5-18; Matt 12:1-13 - Jesus breaks the Sabbath:
5Then Jesus said to him, "Get up! Pick up your mat and walk." 9At once the man was cured; he picked up his mat and walked.
The day on which this took place was a Sabbath, 10and so the Jews said to the man who had been healed, "It is the Sabbath; the law forbids you to carry your mat."
11But he replied, "The man who made me well said to me, 'Pick up your mat and walk.' "
12So they asked him, "Who is this fellow who told you to pick it up and walk?"
13The man who was healed had no idea who it was, for Jesus had slipped away into the crowd that was there.
14Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, "See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you." 15The man went away and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.
16So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews persecuted him. 17Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." 18For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
Example 2: Matt 7:18-19 - Jesus repudiates the Kosher law
17After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18"Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? 19For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.")
Example 3: Matt 10:34-36; 12:46-50; Luke 14:26 - Honoring one's parents? . . . "Fuggedaboudit", says Jesus
Matt 12: 46While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you." 48He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" 49Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. 50For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."
Luke 14: 26"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple.
As I was saying please read Romans 1 :26-32 look at these verses from the King James 1611 edition bible Romans 1:26 ,27,28"For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature.I said:The Gospels recount how the Jesus was repeatedly criticised for hanging out with "low-lifes" (paraphrase). Funny how Jesus didn't seem to value the opinion of religious authority.
Btw - you pick on homosexuality as a sin, but I seem to ermember that judgement was one as well. Jesus implicitly spoke about that - but he never commented on gay love. Maybe you should read the Gospels again, as you seem to have missed a few passages.
And likewise also the men,leaving the natural use of the women burned in their lust one toward another;men with men working that which is unseem,and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
AND EVEN AS THEY DID NOT LIKE TO RETAIN GOD IN THEIR KNOWLEDGE.GOD GAVE THEM OVER TO A REPROBATE MIND TO DO THOSE THINGS WHICH ARE NOT CONVENIENT"....... notice verse 28 do not like to retain God in their knowledge.........I'm not here to judge but it says homosexuality is wrong just as stealing and lieing is wrong.The verse that says it all is 1st Corintians 6 :9 all I'm saying instead on dogging me out about being a Jehovah Witness is just read it for yourself from YOUR bible.
I'm not saying Jesus doesn't love homosexuals or liars or thiefs or prostitues..Notice Jesus words in John 5:14 after speaking in the temple after healing someone he ,Jesus ,told the man to sin no more....If you know what your doing is wrong you must change and I'm not judging but was does repent mean ?ask forgiveness and try to not sin.No one said it isn't easy but you must try.....kiwimac said:
Bruce, I'm not "dogging you out" for being a JW - though you've mentioned elsewhere that you feel laughed at for being a part of them. I'm simply trying to challenge you to try and enter into your own interpretations and opinions of passages in the Bible, as part of a general discussion.
Vajradhara
One of Many
Namaste all,
what, pray tell, is the "natural use" of a woman?
what, pray tell, is the "natural use" of a woman?
Marsh
Disagreeable By Nature
Not quite exemplary examples
Try to be a little more imaginative next time, guy. I've heard much better defammations of Jesus than this. Maybe try listening to a Marilyn Manson album or something.
Abogado del Diablo said:
Try to be a little more imaginative next time, guy. I've heard much better defammations of Jesus than this. Maybe try listening to a Marilyn Manson album or something.
Abogado del Diablo
Ferally Decent
Re: Not quite exemplary examples
SighMarsh said:
kiwimac
God is NOT about Fear
Re: Not quite exemplary examples
In point of Fact Abogado, you are quite right. It was indeed the 'righteous' who condemned Jesus for his compassionate acts, just as it is the 'righteous' who condemn today and their judgement is just as harsh as the Pharisees who preceded them but for far less reason.
Jesus, I think, is not amused.
Kiwimac
In point of Fact Abogado, you are quite right. It was indeed the 'righteous' who condemned Jesus for his compassionate acts, just as it is the 'righteous' who condemn today and their judgement is just as harsh as the Pharisees who preceded them but for far less reason.
Jesus, I think, is not amused.
Kiwimac
Abogado del Diablo
Ferally Decent
Re: Not quite exemplary examples
Should I quote Marilyn Manson instead?
What's wrong with Edie Brickell?Mus Zibii said:
Should I quote Marilyn Manson instead?
Abogado del Diablo
Ferally Decent
THREE metamorphoses of the spirit do I designate to you: how the
spirit becometh a camel, the camel a lion, and the lion at last a
child.
Many heavy things are there for the spirit, the strong
load-bearing spirit in which reverence dwelleth: for the heavy and the
heaviest longeth its strength.
What is heavy? so asketh the load-bearing spirit; then kneeleth it
down like the camel, and wanteth to be well laden.
What is the heaviest thing, ye heroes? asketh the load-bearing
spirit, that I may take it upon me and rejoice in my strength.
Is it not this: To humiliate oneself in order to mortify one's
pride? To exhibit one's folly in order to mock at one's wisdom?
Or is it this: To desert our cause when it celebrateth its
triumph? To ascend high mountains to tempt the tempter?
Or is it this: To feed on the acorns and grass of knowledge, and for
the sake of truth to suffer hunger of soul?
Or is it this: To be sick and dismiss comforters, and make friends
of the deaf, who never hear thy requests?
Or is it this: To go into foul water when it is the water of
truth, and not disclaim cold frogs and hot toads?
Or is it this: To love those who despise us, and give one's hand
to the phantom when it is going to frighten us?
All these heaviest things the load-bearing spirit taketh upon
itself: and like the camel, which, when laden, hasteneth into the
wilderness, so hasteneth the spirit into its wilderness.
But in the loneliest wilderness happeneth the second
metamorphosis: here the spirit becometh a lion; freedom will it
capture, and lordship in its own wilderness.
Its last Lord it here seeketh: hostile will it be to him, and to its
last God; for victory will it struggle with the great dragon.
What is the great dragon which the spirit is no longer inclined to
call Lord and God? "Thou-shalt," is the great dragon called. But the
spirit of the lion saith, "I will."
"Thou-shalt," lieth in its path, sparkling with gold- a
scale-covered beast; and on every scale glittereth golden, "Thou
shalt!"
The values of a thousand years glitter on those scales, and thus
speaketh the mightiest of all dragons: "All the values of things-
glitter on me.
All values have already been created, and all created values- do I
represent. Verily, there shall be no 'I will' any more. Thus
speaketh the dragon.
My brethren, wherefore is there need of the lion in the spirit?
Why sufficeth not the beast of burden, which renounceth and is
reverent?
To create new values- that, even the lion cannot yet accomplish: but
to create itself freedom for new creating- that can the might of the
lion do.
To create itself freedom, and give a holy Nay even unto duty: for
that, my brethren, there is need of the lion.
To assume the ride to new values- that is the most formidable
assumption for a load-bearing and reverent spirit. Verily, unto such a
spirit it is preying, and the work of a beast of prey.
As its holiest, it once loved "Thou-shalt": now is it forced to find
illusion and arbitrariness even in the holiest things, that it may
capture freedom from its love: the lion is needed for this capture.
But tell me, my brethren, what the child can do, which even the lion
could not do? Why hath the preying lion still to become a child?
Innocence is the child, and forgetfulness, a new beginning, a
game, a self-rolling wheel, a first movement, a holy Yea.
Aye, for the game of creating, my brethren, there is needed a holy
Yea unto life: its own will, willeth now the spirit; his own world
winneth the world's outcast.
Three metamorphoses of the spirit have I designated to you: how
the spirit became a camel, the camel a lion, and the lion at last a
child.
- Thus Spake Zarathustra
spirit becometh a camel, the camel a lion, and the lion at last a
child.
Many heavy things are there for the spirit, the strong
load-bearing spirit in which reverence dwelleth: for the heavy and the
heaviest longeth its strength.
What is heavy? so asketh the load-bearing spirit; then kneeleth it
down like the camel, and wanteth to be well laden.
What is the heaviest thing, ye heroes? asketh the load-bearing
spirit, that I may take it upon me and rejoice in my strength.
Is it not this: To humiliate oneself in order to mortify one's
pride? To exhibit one's folly in order to mock at one's wisdom?
Or is it this: To desert our cause when it celebrateth its
triumph? To ascend high mountains to tempt the tempter?
Or is it this: To feed on the acorns and grass of knowledge, and for
the sake of truth to suffer hunger of soul?
Or is it this: To be sick and dismiss comforters, and make friends
of the deaf, who never hear thy requests?
Or is it this: To go into foul water when it is the water of
truth, and not disclaim cold frogs and hot toads?
Or is it this: To love those who despise us, and give one's hand
to the phantom when it is going to frighten us?
All these heaviest things the load-bearing spirit taketh upon
itself: and like the camel, which, when laden, hasteneth into the
wilderness, so hasteneth the spirit into its wilderness.
But in the loneliest wilderness happeneth the second
metamorphosis: here the spirit becometh a lion; freedom will it
capture, and lordship in its own wilderness.
Its last Lord it here seeketh: hostile will it be to him, and to its
last God; for victory will it struggle with the great dragon.
What is the great dragon which the spirit is no longer inclined to
call Lord and God? "Thou-shalt," is the great dragon called. But the
spirit of the lion saith, "I will."
"Thou-shalt," lieth in its path, sparkling with gold- a
scale-covered beast; and on every scale glittereth golden, "Thou
shalt!"
The values of a thousand years glitter on those scales, and thus
speaketh the mightiest of all dragons: "All the values of things-
glitter on me.
All values have already been created, and all created values- do I
represent. Verily, there shall be no 'I will' any more. Thus
speaketh the dragon.
My brethren, wherefore is there need of the lion in the spirit?
Why sufficeth not the beast of burden, which renounceth and is
reverent?
To create new values- that, even the lion cannot yet accomplish: but
to create itself freedom for new creating- that can the might of the
lion do.
To create itself freedom, and give a holy Nay even unto duty: for
that, my brethren, there is need of the lion.
To assume the ride to new values- that is the most formidable
assumption for a load-bearing and reverent spirit. Verily, unto such a
spirit it is preying, and the work of a beast of prey.
As its holiest, it once loved "Thou-shalt": now is it forced to find
illusion and arbitrariness even in the holiest things, that it may
capture freedom from its love: the lion is needed for this capture.
But tell me, my brethren, what the child can do, which even the lion
could not do? Why hath the preying lion still to become a child?
Innocence is the child, and forgetfulness, a new beginning, a
game, a self-rolling wheel, a first movement, a holy Yea.
Aye, for the game of creating, my brethren, there is needed a holy
Yea unto life: its own will, willeth now the spirit; his own world
winneth the world's outcast.
Three metamorphoses of the spirit have I designated to you: how
the spirit became a camel, the camel a lion, and the lion at last a
child.
- Thus Spake Zarathustra
Vajradhara
One of Many
hopefully, that is sarsasmMus Zibii said:
though it's hard to tell on the 'net without good emoticons...