An Intellectual on Pakistan's Muslims' Roots

Bhaktajan II

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An Intellectual on the topic of Pakistan's Muslims' Religious Roots

Seeing that we have Islamic fundamentalists willing to die for the cause from Afghanistan, Morocco, India, etc.

Is the following a deliberately antagonistic tone, or exasperated plea?

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By Dr. Koenraad Elst

03 September, 2006

After the timely folding of yet another Islamic terror plot, the public's attention is focused once more on the "Pakistani problem". Over twenty Muslims have been arrested in connection with the alleged discovery of preparations to blow up a set of airplanes on trans-Atlantic flights starting from London Heathrow. They are mostly holders of British citizenship, born in Britain though of South-Asian origin, and from well-settled families. To their British neighbours, fellow students or colleagues, they must have looked like success stories in terms of integration into British society. And yet, they secretly wanted to terminate the lives of hundreds of anonymous Britons, not excluding those same unsuspecting neighbours.

This is only one incident, though apparently a very sizable one. We may even concede that the incriminating evidence is not fully in yet, so we shouldn't judge in haste. But then, it is only one incident among many. The German police have just folded a Muslim plot to blow up trains, and worse than the failed terror attacks are all those that have succeeded. Remember the trains blown up in Madrid, the tourist centres blown up in Bali, the murder of Theo van Gogh in Amsterdam, and so many others. Specifically Pakistani connections were in evidence in the 1993 and 2001 attacks on the WTC in New York, on the public transport system of London on 7-7-2005, and in the endless series of terror attacks in India: buses stopped and all non-Muslims shot every other month in Jammu & Kashmir; repeated bomb attacks on trains and public buildings in Mumbai, from the big international trend-setter of 12-3-1993 (many synchronous explosions) to the latest one on 11-7-2006; on a political meeting in Coimbatore 1998; on Parliament buildings in Srinagar and Delhi in 2001; on temples in Gandhinagar, Ayodhya and Varanasi (the details of the latest temple attack in Imphal remain to be discovered); on a Diwali shopping crowd in Delhi, and so on.

Yes, we know Muslims excuses: that Muslims are millions while the terrorists are counted in dozens, so most of Muslims are innocent and unrelated to terrorism. Still, outsiders will wonder just how many of Muslims are in the know when these "unrepresentative" and "isolated" young men make their preparations for acts of terror. How many of Muslims shield suspects when the police comes looking for them? Just a question.

And then the big excuse: that "this isn't real Islam", that "this great peaceful religion condemns terrorism", that "terrorists have no religion". We don't believe this convenient plea, but we would still welcome it if it could actually dissuade would-be terrorists from their project. Why do Muslims always address us, the non-Muslims, with those rosy stories about peaceful Islam? Why not go to the centres of militancy and repeat those sermons there? We don't mean some perfunctory "open letter" meant for non-Muslim consumption, but an earnest effort to persuade the militant Muslims, one that doesn't stop until the goal is reached. We suspect Muslims have so far never tried this because in your heart of hearts, Muslims are perfectly aware that Islam does condone these acts. Because Muslims expect the militants to quote chapter and verse from your own Quran to justify their methods, reminding Muslims of how Mohammed's career mainly consisted in armed struggle against the infidels, and leaving Muslims speechless.

The consequence is that only an extremely gullible fringe of British society can now remain unsuspecting. After this, what Muslim will they trust? Every time the problem of Islamic terrorism raises its head anywhere in the Western world, the public is treated to assurances that "this isn't the real Islam" and that "the vast majority of Muslims abhor this terrorism". Each time the politicians accompanied by camera crews pay visits to mosques to assure Muslims of their lasting confidence in Islam's peaceful intentions, which alas leaves them no time to go and comfort the victims of Islamic terror. Each time, ordinary people including the non-Muslim immigrants force themselvesto keep in mind that "not all Muslims are terrorists", in particular this one and that one with whom they try to stay friends.

But there is a limit to all this patience and goodwill. If Muslims who could be showpieces of multicultural integration turn out to be discreet fanatics and murderers, who says the friendly Pakistan news agent around the corner isn't plotting your death? This time around, Pakistan Britons will notice how the looks in people's eyes have become icy. Their mouths may not yet voice it, but their eyes are completely eloquent about it: "Pakistan, go home!" Indeed, if I hadn't studied Islamic doctrine and history, I too would by now have renounced all hope of a harmonious outcome and concluded: "Pakistan, go home!"

Fortunately, there is an alternative and simpler solution. Muslims must have noticed that natives are far less prone to "Hinduphobia" or "Sikhphobia" or "Parsiphobia" than to what politicians like to call "Islamophobia". Indeed, non-Muslim South-Asian immigrants have authoritatively been praised as Britain's "model minority". If they too sometimes suffer harassment, it is very largely from natives who don't know the difference between all these exotic religions, between a Sikh and a bearded and turbaned Osama bin Laden. This way, Muslims have made them the indirect victims of the sinister reputation that Muslims yourselves have earned. Still, the performance in education and professional life of the non-Muslim South-Asians must be a matter of envy to Muslims.

So, why not become one of them? Muslims in the west live in a country with unfettered religious freedom, quite a different situation from the religious oppression in Pakistan. Overnight, Muslims can shed the burden of your Muslim identity and embrace Anglican Christianity, Methodism or Roman Catholicism. Muslims can become an atheist or agnostic or go and congregate with the Druids and New-Agers in Stonehenge. Better still, Muslims can return to your roots.

Every South-Asian Muslim knows that his ancestors were Zoroastrians or Kalash Kafirs, Buddhists or Hindus. In dramatic circumstances, they converted to Islam as the lesser evil in preference to death or impoverishment or third-class citizenship. Out of inertia or brainwashing, Muslims have so far chosen to remain in Islam and not to undo their shame. Now that Muslims are facing the consequences of being Muslims, viz. the hostility provoked by never-ending Islamic arrogance and aggression, Muslims have a good occasion to reconsider your religious identity. Drop this erroneous belief system that was forced upon you and come home to your ancestral community, where you belong.



A Islamic thinker commented:

I will never understand how people can call for an end to violence in an antagonistic tone.

For every muslim who is compelled by this piece of writing, five more will be infuriated-- and with good reason.

Violence will only end when people stop viewing others as rivals that must be bested, but even this "peace maker" is completely incapable of that, so don't hold your breath.

A Hindu thinker commented:

Most Muslims would get insulted, instead of looking at the truth. But the truth is that their forefathers were forced to become Muslim, either through rape or treat of being murdered. It's similar to the African Americans who were enslaved by the Christians, but still practice Christianity. Muhammed Ali (the famous American Boxer) became Muslim to protest against this. But if the Pakistanis want to protest to the people who enslaved their ancestors, they should become Hindus or Buddhist.
 
Muslims must have noticed that natives are far less prone to "Hinduphobia" or "Sikhphobia" or "Parsiphobia" than to what politicians like to call "Islamophobia".
Hindus, Sikhs and Parsis were never a superpower. The Muslims were. Islam almost swallowed all of Europe. So just as the Romans mythically feared Hannibal long after Carthage was a annihilated, the Westerners will keep a latent fear of Islam (as it is still here.)

Most Muslims would get insulted, instead of looking at the truth. But the truth is that their forefathers were forced to become Muslim, either through rape or treat of being murdered.
Please ask this "hindu thinker" to provide proof for his assertion that my forefather was forced to convert. As far as we're concerned, everyone is born a Muslim, and then becomes a hind/sikh/parsi etc.

but their eyes are completely eloquent about it: "Pakistan, go home!" Indeed, if I hadn't studied Islamic doctrine and history, I too would by now have renounced all hope of a harmonious outcome and concluded: "Pakistan, go home!"
How polite of this author to refrain from using the word "paki"
But I will re-state the actual slogans in the "eyes" of people.

"Paki go home!"

Now this, sounds much more visceral, doesn't it?
Dispense with the politeness Mr. Elst, and let's give
an accurate picture of the state of affairs. Also, why
not mention the fact that this slogan preceded 9/11
and al qaida, or any british-pakistani terrorists?
 
Hindus, Sikhs and Parsis were never a superpower.

Self correction: parsis (zorastrian) Persia did threaten Europe briefly during the time of the Greeks. But Persia today is Islamic as well.
 
p.s.

Most Muslims would get insulted, instead of looking at the truth. But the truth is that their forefathers were forced to become Muslim, either through rape or treat of being murdered.
Also please remind this "hindu thinker" that most converts to Islam considered life as an equal Muslim favorable to living as a low-caste Hindu.
 
It reads as a Hindu nationalist piece antagonistic to Muslims - the final sentence underline this.

In which case, in what way are we to regard this as a balanced commentary on Islam worth considering for discussion?
 
Also please remind this "hindu thinker" that most converts to Islam considered life as an equal Muslim favorable to living as a low-caste Hindu.

Really? Like the Blacks, Irish & Italians in early American History?


Please ask this "hindu thinker" to provide proof for his assertion that my forefather was forced to convert. As far as we're concerned, everyone is born a Muslim, and then becomes a hind/sikh/parsi etc.

From whence did the pre-islamic man-power appear from that took the helm of Muslim Conquests during those years of 610 till 1500? From where did the pre-islamic man-power arise?

this slogan preceded 9/11 and al qaida, or any british-pakistani terrorists?

Long before that there was similar slogans, like: "Yankee go Home" ---[but usually omitted was "and take me with you"]


let's give an accurate picture of the state of affairs.


There have been conquered nations that have later gained independence from tyranny ---for example: The American Native Indian

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_gambling_enterprises

070416_TribalGaming_cvr.jpg


So nowadays playing cowboys and indians have a different connotation.
 
Really? Like the Blacks, Irish & Italians in early American History?

How would converting to Islam in the US have helped them? The low-caste Hindus were liberated by the ruling Muslims in South Asia.

From whence did the pre-islamic man-power appear from that took the helm of Muslim Conquests during those years of 610 till 1500? From where did the pre-islamic man-power arise?
The Mughals who conquered India were not Arabs. They were descendants of Gengis Khan. And the last time I checked: the Mongols conquered Muslims, but still they converted to Islam. Yet, when they conquered India, they did not convert to hinduism. What does that tell you?

Long before that there was similar slogans, like: "Yankee go Home" ---[but usually omitted was "and take me with you"]
Which is also a problem for the author of this article and his point.
 
I found a quote of Nehru that might interest you. Here he explains how and why the Hindus of South Asia converted for the most part.

"...The impact of the invaders of the north-west and Islam on India had been considerable. It pointed out and shown up the abuses that had crept up into Hindu society-the petrifaction of caste, untouchability, exclusiveness carried to fantastic lengths. The idea of brotherhood of Islam and of the theoretical equality of its adherents made a powerful appeal, especially those of the Hindu fold who were denied any semblance of equal treatment..."The Discovery of India by Jawaharlal Nehru, Oxford Uni. Press 1985, p265


Also note the case of Rajputs. They were/are the warriors of South Asia who ruled in an alliance with the Mughals. Who forced them to convert? The founder of Pakistan was a Rajput. My best friend in Pakistan is a Rajput. I know these people. Trust me, you can't "force" them to do much, let alone convert. They are extremely proud people. They converted because off the sufi saints who preached in South Asia, and due to the favoritism that the Mughal rulers showed them.

The only force was applied by Aurengzeb at the end of Mughal supremacy in South Asia. Aurengzeb screwed everything up by trying to force people. During this time the Jats (the people to which I belong) revolted precisely because he tried to use force in North Central India. And my people, we're pretty easy going, until you piss us off. This is why the revolt happened, which by the way occurred when the Mughals were peaking in power and wealth, just because they started pushing people around (after the benevolent reign of the greatest Mughal emperors was over.) But by then the Jats in the West (where Pakistan formed, and where my family is from historically) most likely already converted to Islam, as did the Rajput converts, due to the preaching of the sufi saints and/or the general appeal and benefits of conversion, that Nehru highlighted.
 
Post #8 is very well-written and was quite interesting to me.

But, surprisingly to me, I was not asking about India context here.

From where did the pre-islamic man-power arise?

My question is about a roaming conquistador who needs man power as he passes from one region onto another far away locale ... ie: Hannibal's conscripted warriors' sons of anarchy.
Hannibal's Epic March Across the Alps to Rome's Gates

et al.

These wannabe Lords of all they survey, famously conscript men along the way to booty's ville.

The Classic scenario is:

"Hey Jethro, there's gold in them hills. What say you & I make our fortune and come back and live like Kings?"
 
But, surprisingly to me, I was not asking about India context here.

This thread is about Muslims from the subcontinent. You should have stated clearly what you were referring to if it deviated from the context.

My question is about a roaming conquistador who needs man power as he passes from one region onto another far away locale ... ie: Hannibal's conscripted warriors' sons of anarchy.
Hannibal's Epic March Across the Alps to Rome's Gates
This still seems more relevant to the conquerors who conquered India as it was invaded multiple times by roaming leaders, like Alexander and the Mongols (plus their decendents).

You will have to reformulate your question or state its point clearly.
 
"relevant to conquerors"

I am referring to an age old scenario of how posses & gangs & mobs & even revolutions acquire man-power ---other than "by the sword".

The Classic scenario of mercenary recruiting is a promise to acquire Booty:

"Hey, there's gold in the Americas. What say I make my fortune and come back to Spain and live like a King?"

The promise of material booty is why men joined up forces to march on rome ---the same scenario spurns on similar ambitions wherever the perfect storm of circumstances occur.


[BTW, "sons of anarchy" refers to a television Show about motorcycle "Biker Gangs" Sons of Anarchy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia]

PS: I may be totally incorrect to say Hannibal's army were "conscripted" ---especially in accordance with my intended idea in my posting.
 
"relevant to conquerors"

I am referring to an age old scenario of how posses & gangs & mobs & even revolutions acquire man-power ---other than "by the sword".

The Classic scenario of mercenary recruiting is a promise to acquire Booty:

"Hey, there's gold in the Americas. What say I make my fortune and come back to Spain and live like a King?"

The promise of material booty is why men joined up forces to march on rome ---the same scenario spurns on similar ambitions wherever the perfect storm of circumstances occur.


[BTW, "sons of anarchy" refers to a television Show about motorcycle "Biker Gangs" Sons of Anarchy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia]

PS: I may be totally incorrect to say Hannibal's army were "conscripted" ---especially in accordance with my intended idea in my posting.

How does this relate to anything in this comment of mine:

Please ask this "hindu thinker" to provide proof for his assertion that my forefather was forced to convert. As far as we're concerned, everyone is born a Muslim, and then becomes a hind/sikh/parsi etc.
 
"As far as we're concerned, everyone is born a Muslim"

How does this relate to anything in this comment of mine?
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Please ask this "hindu thinker" to provide proof for his assertion that my forefather was forced to convert.

That is the very contents and the very explicit topic spelt out in the cited article. The article is an ascertion of historical proofs that your own post conceeded to.

That's like me asking you for proof that your posts are posted by c0de.

And do you not mean to ask, "Please ask this "Intellectual" "?
 
"As far as we're concerned, everyone is born a Muslim"

How does this relate to anything in this comment of mine?
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It relates directly to the comment of the "hindu thinker" who called on South Asian Muslims to convert "back" to hinduism. I retorted that we believe we are all born Muslim, so maybe this "hindu thinker" should be the one converting back to Islam.


That is the very contents and the very explicit topic spelt out in the cited article. The article is an ascertion of historical proofs that your own post conceeded to.
What do you think my post conceded, exactly?

Once again, what's your point?

I still don't know what you're on about.
 
bhaktajan, the original piece did not refer to "historical proofs" - it was a Hindu nationalist diatribe against Islam.

Considering the tensions in India at the moment between Hindus and Muslims, with radicalisation on both sides, I'm not sure why it's regarded as healthy to publicly support one extreme or another - especially on an interfaith forum.
 
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