Did the 3 Magi Represent a Break From Judaism?

[mojobadshah]

It's obvious that conceptually Christianity resembles Zoroastrianism much more than it resembles Judaism. Therefore is it possible that Mathew included the story of the Magi because the Magi were linked to Zoroastrianism a philosophy that professed a loving God, a Devil, Angles and Demons, no Heaven or Hell, a messiah, the resurrection, and judgment day, among other key concepts and this represented a break from the OT which describes a merciless God, no Heaven or Hell (only Sheol), no resurrection, and no judgment day?

 

[iBrian]

I take the story of the Magi to relate the disaporean Jews, who were a very significant in Baghdad.

 

[bob x]

I think diasporan Jews would resent being called "Magi" which to them would be a heathenish term; but Matthew does not actually use that word (he says "wise men"; in medieval Christendom they were taken to be "kings" which Matthew doesn't say either), or number them as three (perhaps that came from the list "gold, frankincense, myrrh" of the gifts?) They are represented as astrologers, a group that Zoroastrians and Jews equally despised, at least according to the official line. Frankincense and myrrh are crops from southern Arabia and the horn of Africa (Yemen and Somalia nowadays).

 

[mojobadshah]

I think diasporan Jews would resent being called "Magi" which to them would be a heathenish term; but Matthew does not actually use that word (he says "wise men"; in medieval Christendom they were taken to be "kings" which Matthew doesn't say either), or number them as three (perhaps that came from the list "gold, frankincense, myrrh" of the gifts?) They are represented as astrologers, a group that Zoroastrians and Jews equally despised, at least according to the official line. Frankincense and myrrh are crops from southern Arabia and the horn of Africa (Yemen and Somalia nowadays).

There was a Greek author who claimed that there was a group of Jews that called themselves Magi, but up until now I've been accustomed to the Wisemen having been identified as Zoroastrians. And to avoid looking like an chauvinist I am going to ask Bob X to kindly tell us why the Wisemen were Zoroastrians. Bob X?

 

[bob x]

They weren't. They were astrologers from southern Arabia.

 

[mojobadshah]

You got sources or an explanation for why that is?

 

[Amergin]

You got sources or an explanation for why that is?

I agree largely with your leading post on this thread. Christianity does indeed resemble Zoroastrianism much more than Judaism. The God (or Gods) of Zoroastrianism and Christianity are nearly identical. Both religions are structured on the classical Indo-European model dating back to perhaps 8000 BCE in the original Indo-European Homeland before the migrations.

Both religions have saving grace, a virgin birth of a saviour, a Father God, a Holy Spirit, a resurrection, a devil (or evil God of Darkness, Angra Maingu), a communal meal (Eucharist), a ritual eating of the saviour in the shape of a Solar Disk of bread, an Armageddon or Final Battle of Light versus Darkness, and a final judgment.

This obviously has little resemblance to Judaism, which gave rise to Islam.

Indo-European Religion is not recorded in writing but a proto-Religion of the Indo-Europeans can be deduced by the history that Indo-Europeans migrated from the area north of the Black Sea in a series of migrations. They went East, South, and West. The ones who went east included the Indo-Iranians (Aryans). Their major surviving religions are Hinduism and Zoroastrianism, which have obvious similarities.

Those who remained in the ancestral homelands included the Scyths, Sarmations, Alans, and Iasgians whose religion is little known but who spoke Indo-European Languages.

Those who went south (Achaeans, Hittites, Luvians, Lydians, and Phrygians) left little reliable descriptions of their Indo-European religion but they left Indo-European Languages.

Those who migrated west (Celts, Italics, Teutons, Illyrians, Greeks, Balts, Slavs, and Thraco-Cimmerians,) who had classical Indo-European Religions showing a clear resemblance to the Eastern group (Zoroastrian and Hindu.)

That means that we can construct a basic Indo-European Religious Template that fits the beliefs of Indo-Europeans that migrated to the Atlantic Coast and the edge of China.

Considering this, Christianity is clearly one of the Indo-European (Pagan) Religions. Christian linkage to Judaism is more of an illusion than a fact. I think it was cultural and religious syncretism that produced Christianity.

Jesus may or may not have been a real person. I tend to think that he was real. He was a prophet, healer (sorcerer), teacher, counsellor, and reformer. He never claimed to be a god. He did have followers who lived in the eastern Mediterranean Region. Over the first two centuries, Pagan converts to various Jesus Cults. Those Pagan Indo-Europeans (Romans, Celts, Greeks, and Anatolians) brought with them the baggage of Indo-European structured religions.

This religious syncretism led to the gradual belief that Jesus was a god similar to Mithra, Sol Invictus, Lugh, Lieu, Odin, Apollo, and Helios. This process (apotheosis or deification) was not sudden but slowly over three centuries. Jesus EVOLVED from a prophet to a secondary God to a full-fledged God. (Athanasian Christianity grew in the fourth century CE.)

For Jesus to be an Indo-European son of God, a Father God was needed. JHWH seemed to fit the bill. God (perhaps the Holy Spirit or Messenger God) conceived Jesus in a Virgin. Thus, Athanasius and Tertullian had a classical Indo-European structure of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

I do not think Constantine merely invented this Christianity. It occurred so slowly that the transition was barely noticed. All that Constantine did was recognize that Athanasian Christianity was very similar to his own Indo-European branch of the Cult of Sol Invictus. When he convened the Council of Nicaea in 324 CE, he felt that he was not making a new religion. He was merely combining the Empire's Indo-European Religions under the banner of the growing Christian Indo-European Hybrid Religion.

IMO, this is why Christianity was so casually accepted by so many Celts, Teutons, Illyrians, Greeks, Romans, and various Anatolian provinces.

In a similar fashion, Christianity spread by the Spanish in the Americas by absorption of Native American religions and gods. Native Americans in Peru, Yucatan, Columbia, and Bolivia worship the Old Gods as well as Jesus Christ.

Amergin

 

[Amergin]

I think diasporan Jews would resent being called "Magi" which to them would be a heathenish term; but Matthew does not actually use that word (he says "wise men"; in medieval Christendom they were taken to be "kings" which Matthew doesn't say either), or number them as three (perhaps that came from the list "gold, frankincense, myrrh" of the gifts?) They are represented as astrologers, a group that Zoroastrians and Jews equally despised, at least according to the official line. Frankincense and myrrh are crops from southern Arabia and the horn of Africa (Yemen and Somalia nowadays).

I thought "wise men" were high ranking Mafia agents above the more common Mafia crooks or "soldiers."

Amergin

 

[mojobadshah]

I thought "wise men" were high ranking Mafia agents above the more common Mafia crooks or "soldiers."

Amergin

That's funny that you mention the Mafia, because there was a point when the thought did occur to me that there might be an etymological relationship between the word Mob and Mobed. More to the point, however, I like you're analysis, Amerigin.

But, seriously, Bob X, can you back up what you said about the Arabic origin of the Magi, cause its totally contrary to every book I've ever read about the Magi. I don't think I recall any author pointing to an Arabic origin. I've read about them passing through Arabia...

 

[bob x]

You got sources or an explanation for why that is?

The earliest mention of this story is in Justin Martyr, who refers to the version of the gospel in circulation in his day simply as "the memoirs of the apostles" not ascribing it to Matthew or any other particular author: Dialogue with Trypho 106:4, "when a star rose in heaven at the time of his birth, as it is recorded in the memoirs of his apostles, wise men from Arabia, recognizing the sign by this, came to worship him." The Greek word for "wise men" is magoi, but as in many other contexts that does not mean they were from Persia. Justin does not mention the frankincense and myrrh, but these are crops found in a very specific area, from Somalia to Oman. Astrologers would have been particularly associated with Yemen at that time, because astrologers had actually taken control of the government: a kind of high priest called the m-k-r-b (vowels uncertain, as often in Semitic languages written in purely consonantal alphabets) had usurped the power from the royal family.

The root k-r-b meant something like "to regulate the calendar": found in Hebrew keruwbiym rendered "cherubim" in English but these creatures were not cute bare-butt baby boys, rather the same as Aramaic kruwviyn source of Greek/Latin griffin, a compound animal of bull, lion, eagle, and man representing the four corners of the Zodiac and thus the yearly cycle of seasons; also in Makoraba (as Ptolemy spells it), the sacred well on the Tropic of Cancer where the sun is straight overhead (so that it shines all the way to the bottom of the well) only at the summer solstice, the name being re-parsed in Arabic as Makkah Rabbah "Mecca the Great", also called al-Mukarima.

 

[arthra]

An apocryphal Gospel has a verse indicating the Magi were following a prophecy of Zoroaster when they sought out the Christ child...

7. And it came to pass, when the Lord Jesus was born at Bethlehem of Judæa, in the time of King Herod, behold, magi came from the east to Jerusalem, as Zeraduscht had predicted; and there were with them gifts, gold, and frankincense, and myrrh. And they adored Him, and presented to Him their gifts. Then the Lady Mary took one of the swaddling-bands, and, on account of the smallness of her means, gave it to them; and they received it from her with the greatest marks of honour. And in the same hour there appeared to them an angel in the form of that star which had before guided them on their journey; and they went away, following the guidance of its light, until they arrived in their own country.

- [SIZE=+1]Arabic Gospel of the Infancy of The Saviour

CHURCH FATHERS: The Arabic Gospel of the Infancy of the Saviour
[/SIZE]

 

[Dream]

Brainstorming. So far among all the threads brainstorming to find a dependency upon Zoroastrianism I have not seen anything convincing or enticing. The above mention seems a late manuscript to me due to its emphasis upon the healing power of relics and borrowing from the imagery of the Apocalypse. Starting at verse 33:

33. There was there also a young woman afflicted by Satan; for that accursed wretch repeatedly appeared to her in the form of a huge dragon, and prepared to swallow her. He also sucked out all her blood, so that she was left like a corpse......And the Lady Mary hearing her words, gave her a little of the water in which she had washed the body of her son Jesus, and ordered her to pour it on the body of her daughter.

Its interesting that the writer put in 'Zeraduscht' but not at all convincing of a Zoroastrian connection. We are still imagining a connection and trying to find evidence of it.

 

[Amergin]

Brainstorming. So far among all the threads brainstorming to find a dependency upon Zoroastrianism I have not seen anything convincing or enticing. The above mention seems a late manuscript to me due to its emphasis upon the healing power of relics and borrowing from the imagery of the Apocalypse. Starting at verse 33:
Its interesting that the writer put in 'Zeraduscht' but not at all convincing of a Zoroastrian connection. We are still imagining a connection and trying to find evidence of it.

What is difficult is finding a real connection of Christianity to Judaism.

Islam is clearly so much like Judaism, that both could be considered sects of the same strictly Monotheistic Faith. Abraham and Moses clearly contributed ideas to Islam. However, nothing from Moses and Abraham seem to have any significant connection to Christianity. Christianity is not strict Monotheism no matter how you twist and spin the Trinity Theory. Christianity still has a Deity of three persons. That makes it a Trinity.

Where else do you find trinities? You find it in the Indo-European Religions like Zoroastrianism, Druidism, Olympianism, Roman Religion, and of course Christianity.

Does Judaism have a Father God, Son, and Holy Spirit? No, it does not.

Do Indo-European Paganisms have trinities? Yes, and some are Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Judaism does not have:
saving grace,
Eucharistic meal eating God in the form of a solar disk wafer of bread,
Obsession with the number 7,
End times war between a good God and an evil God.

Mithraic Zoroastrianism and Christianity have:
Saving grace,
The ritual cannibalistic Eucharistic meal of eating God,
Multiple groupings of the number 7
End War - Ahura Mazda vs Angra Mainyu or Jesus vs Satan (evil god).

Satan is elevated to God status in Christianity with mighty powers. He is probably Persian in origin. The evil God according to Zoroaster is In the Gathas the oldest texts of the Zoroastrian Avesta (scripture.) Christian Mythology borrowed Angra Mainyu from Zoroastrianism calling him Satan possibly from another ancient God called Set or Serpent, Destroyer, God of this world (II Corinthians 4:4.) Obviously, Paul regarded the Devil, Lucifer or Satan as an evil God.

You can continue with the invalid belief that Christianity is a form of Judaism. However, it is not. It is clear to any with an open rational mind, that Christianity is one form of Indo-European Paganism.

I am an Atheist and thus have no reason to be biased for or against Judaism, Christianity, or Zoroastrianism. My opinion is strong , sincere, and rational.

Amergin

 

[mojobadshah]

The earliest mention of this story is in Justin Martyr, who refers to the version of the gospel in circulation in his day simply as "the memoirs of the apostles" not ascribing it to Matthew or any other particular author: Dialogue with Trypho 106:4, "when a star rose in heaven at the time of his birth, as it is recorded in the memoirs of his apostles, wise men from Arabia, recognizing the sign by this, came to worship him."

The fact that the wisemen came from Arabia doesn't necessarily mean that they didn't begin their journey in Persia. And the Bahman Yasht mentions how a star would signal the arrival of one of the Saoshyants or Messiahs, and though this Middle Persian text wasn't entirely derived from an Avestan original, maybe that part was.

The Greek word for "wise men" is magoi, but as in many other contexts that does not mean they were from Persia. Justin does not mention the frankincense and myrrh, but these are crops found in a very specific area, from Somalia to Oman.

Yet, the Greco-Romans perception of the Zoroastrian Magi was not always accurate. They thought Zoroaster's name itself was akin to the Greek word aster which means star and forms part of the word astrology. And these crops you mention could have been easily acquired by the Zoroastrians. According to the Vendidad they did use Frankincense for respiratory ailments.

Astrologers would have been particularly associated with Yemen at that time, because astrologers had actually taken control of the government: a kind of high priest called the m-k-r-b (vowels uncertain, as often in Semitic languages written in purely consonantal alphabets) had usurped the power from the royal family.

And I don't know if I would 100% agree that the Zoroastrian Magi were not astrologers. They were definitely astronomers. A number of the deities are associated with celestial bodies. Tishtryia "Sirius" for one. The word Calendar is an Iranian loan to English. The chronology in Bundashin with the 3000 year cycles for each age is based on the Great Year or Precession which has a lot to do with astrology which even predicts Frasho-kereti or judgment day.

The root k-r-b meant something like "to regulate the calendar": found in Hebrew keruwbiym rendered "cherubim" in English but these creatures were not cute bare-butt baby boys, rather the same as Aramaic kruwviyn source of Greek/Latin griffin, a compound animal of bull, lion, eagle, and man representing the four corners of the Zodiac and thus the yearly cycle of seasons; also in Makoraba (as Ptolemy spells it), the sacred well on the Tropic of Cancer where the sun is straight overhead (so that it shines all the way to the bottom of the well) only at the summer solstice, the name being re-parsed in Arabic as Makkah Rabbah "Mecca the Great", also called al-Mukarima.

Maybe you have better insight on this, but according to "The Dabistan" there are a lot of place-names in Arabia that are derived from Iranian forms. I know Baghdad is an Iranian loan. All the -bads "abode". Maybe even Riyad "royal city?" the capital of Saudi Arabia. Kaaba is akin to the word cube. It is the author of The Dabistan's opinion that astral worship was practiced in Arabia, and he mentions two place-names that I recall in particular. 1) Medina, which he derives from the Iranian forms mah "moon" and din "religion" (but probably the Av. daeana "religion"), and Mecca he says is derived from the Iranian forms mah "moon" and gah "place."

 

[bob x]

What is difficult is finding a real connection of Christianity to Judaism.

Aside from the pervasive use of the Jewish Scriptures, you mean?

Islam is clearly so much like Judaism, that both could be considered sects of the same strictly Monotheistic Faith.

The Zoroastrian element in Islam is much stronger than in Christianity. The judgment day, heaven, and hell are not just of occasional mention as in the New Testament; the majority of the Qur'an onsists of tedious repetitions that "to the good people good things will happen, and to the bad people bad things will happen" with a twisted emphasis on describing in crude terms the torments of hell or the materialistic pleasures in heaven. Unlike in Judaism or Christianity, there is no other basis for morality attempted, except that "good" is what will get rewarded and "bad" is what will get punished.

Where else do you find trinities? You find it in the Indo-European Religions like Zoroastrianism, Druidism, Olympianism, Roman Religion, and of course Christianity.

I get so sick and tired of having to point out to you over and over again what PURE RUBBISH this is. Zoroastrianism was a REBELLION AGAINST Indo-European paganism; and depicts a God who has seven, not three, hypostases. "Driudism" as you understand it is a creation of 18th-century romantics with no particular connection to ancestral Celtic mythologies. Olympianism and its Roman copy had a set of twelve, not three, supreme deities.

Do Indo-European Paganisms have trinities? Yes, and some are Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

No. Just... no.

Judaism does not have:
saving grace,
Eucharistic meal eating God in the form of a solar disk wafer of bread,
Obsession with the number 7,
End times war between a good God and an evil God.

Mithraic Zoroastrianism and Christianity have:
Saving grace,
The ritual cannibalistic Eucharistic meal of eating God,
Multiple groupings of the number 7
End War - Ahura Mazda vs Angra Mainyu or Jesus vs Satan (evil god).

"Saving grace" is unique to Pauline Christianity: Zoroastrianism is pure "salvation by works" in theological terms, where nothing matters except what you do; the notion of a God forgiving you despite you not deserving it is as alien to Zoroastrianism as to any other religion. Mithraism does appear to have had a communal meal ritual, involving the drinking of bull's blood to wash down beef, but there was no concept that this was "eating God" and no involvement of bread; and while your notion that medieval communion wafers came to be standardized in a circular shape out of some "solar disk" notion is popular especially among 7th-Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and other believers in Catholic-Church-as-Antichrist, I do not think it is particularly historical. Judaism is MUCH MUCH more "obsessed with the number 7" than any other religion; Christianity is more obsessed with 3. The end-times war, final judgment etc. are certainly part of the Zoroastrian contribution to Christianity, but through the medium of 1st-century Jews (see "The War of the Sons of Light Against the Sons of Darkness" from Qumran) than from "Mithraists" who probably did not even have such a concept.

The fact that the wisemen came from Arabia doesn't necessarily mean that they didn't begin their journey in Persia.

Doesn't mean they did, either. Seems very strange that only the detour, and not the start of the journey, would be mentioned. The fact is, our two earliest sources only mention Arabian connections, nothing at all about Persia, and it is probably just the use of the word magoi that ever made anybody think differently.

And the Bahman Yasht mentions how a star would signal the arrival of one of the Saoshyants or Messiahs, and though this Middle Persian text wasn't entirely derived from an Avestan original, maybe that part was.

Or rather, from the Christian story, if it never appears until such a late date.

Maybe you have better insight on this, but according to "The Dabistan" there are a lot of place-names in Arabia that are derived from Iranian forms.

The "Dabistan" seems to be a really ignorant book.

I know Baghdad is an Iranian loan.

And you don't know that it's in Iraq, not Arabia?

All the -bads "abode".

In Arabia? Name one. Of course there are such name in Pakistan etc.

Maybe even Riyad "royal city?" the capital of Saudi Arabia.

It did not have that name until the 16th century.

Kaaba is akin to the word cube.

That is a borrowing from Semitic to Indo-European, not the other way around (it was not in Proto-Indo-European).

It is the author of The Dabistan's opinion that astral worship was practiced in Arabia

Of course it was. The point is that it was not the native Indo-European religion, rather a borrowing after contact with the Middle East.

and he mentions two place-names that I recall in particular. 1) Medina, which he derives from the Iranian forms mah "moon" and din "religion" (but probably the Av. daeana "religion"), and Mecca he says is derived from the Iranian forms mah "moon" and gah "place."

Medina has the participial m- prefix as in mulamud "teacher" (from l-m-d "to guide") and muhammad "praiser" (from h-m-d "to praise") and feminine-abstract -ah suffix on the root d-y-n "to render a decision"; it is the Semitic word for "state" as in Medineth Yisrael the legal name of the "State of Israel" (-ah remains -et or -eth in the "constructive" case "state of ..."). The name was given to the city formerly called Yatrib when it became Muhammad's capital, and the city retained the name even after Muhammad took Mecca to commemorate that the Muslim state had once consisted only of that town.
"Mecca" was a longer name in older sources, as I explained. Middle Persian mah for "moon" is an exceedingly late erosion (of course the word originally had an "n" as in other Indo-European reflexes of the root) and cannot be evoked for any ancient names.

 

[mojobadshah]

Aside from the pervasive use of the Jewish Scriptures, you mean?

The Zoroastrian element in Islam is much stronger than in Christianity. The judgment day, heaven, and hell are not just of occasional mention as in the New Testament; the majority of the Qur'an onsists of tedious repetitions that "to the good people good things will happen, and to the bad people bad things will happen" with a twisted emphasis on describing in crude terms the torments of hell or the materialistic pleasures in heaven. Unlike in Judaism or Christianity, there is no other basis for morality attempted, except that "good" is what will get rewarded and "bad" is what will get punished.

I would agree that Zoroastrianism, Christianity, and Islam have more relationships to each other than to Judaism.

I get so sick and tired of having to point out to you over and over again what PURE RUBBISH this is. Zoroastrianism was a REBELLION AGAINST Indo-European paganism; and depicts a God who has seven, not three, hypostases. "Driudism" as you understand it is a creation of 18th-century romantics with no particular connection to ancestral Celtic mythologies. Olympianism and its Roman copy had a set of twelve, not three, supreme deities.

My opinion is that yes, Zoroastrianism did have a 7 hypostasis, Christianity emphasized a trinity, and Judaism doesn't, Islam doesn't, but that they are alike in the sense that each of these philosophies or religions had 1.) a God, 2.) personification of God on earth, and 3.) an intermediary between God and this personification of God on earth. However Bob X did mention that these angels or messengers or intermediaries were a late addition to Judaism. Michael and Raphael, I'm sure, are two of these additions I'm sure are mentioned in the Hebrew Bible, but I was under the impression that these intermediaries only did not have names before these late additions began to appear. Am I wrong?

Judaism is MUCH MUCH more "obsessed with the number 7" than any other religion; Christianity is more obsessed with 3. The end-times war, final judgment etc. are certainly part of the Zoroastrian contribution to Christianity, but through the medium of 1st-century Jews (see "The War of the Sons of Light Against the Sons of Darkness" from Qumran) than from "Mithraists" who probably did not even have such a concept.

Was the obsession with the number 7 among the Jews a late addition too? Lawrence Mills mentions the connection of the 7 lamps in the Hebrew Bible to the 7 Amesha Spentas or hypostasis. And another thing: in the Hebrew Bible Zorobabel's name is associated with the 7 lamps which once again makes me wonder whether they're may indeed have been a connection between Zorobabel and Zoroaster.

Doesn't mean they did, either. Seems very strange that only the detour, and not the start of the journey, would be mentioned. The fact is, our two earliest sources only mention Arabian connections, nothing at all about Persia, and it is probably just the use of the word magoi that ever made anybody think differently.

Or rather, from the Christian story, if it never appears until such a late date.

And you don't know that it's in Iraq, not Arabia?

In Arabia? Name one. Of course there are such name in Pakistan etc.

That is a borrowing from Semitic to Indo-European, not the other way around (it was not in Proto-Indo-European).

True, true. I was just thinking off the top of my head, but I consider Iraq Arabia considering the Iraqis speak Arabic. Why wouldn't you?

Of course it was. The point is that it was not the native Indo-European religion, rather a borrowing after contact with the Middle East. And also, why would the Arabian's have sought out a Messiah? I know Zoroaster mentions Saoyashant's or Messsiah's as far back as the Gathas. Did the Arabian's of that day have these kinds of prophecies too?

Medina has the participial m- prefix as in mulamud "teacher" (from l-m-d "to guide") and muhammad "praiser" (from h-m-d "to praise") and feminine-abstract -ah suffix on the root d-y-n "to render a decision"; it is the Semitic word for "state" as in Medineth Yisrael the legal name of the "State of Israel" (-ah remains -et or -eth in the "constructive" case "state of ..."). The name was given to the city formerly called Yatrib when it became Muhammad's capital, and the city retained the name even after Muhammad took Mecca to commemorate that the Muslim state had once consisted only of that town.
"Mecca" was a longer name in older sources, as I explained. Middle Persian mah for "moon" is an exceedingly late erosion (of course the word originally had an "n" as in other Indo-European reflexes of the root) and cannot be evoked for any ancient names.

You know what this is already starting to remind me of "the etymology of Jesus thread." From what you mentioned it would appear that Mecca is a contraction of the Semitic k-r-b "to regulate the calendar" and the prefix Ma- which Ptolemy introduced which together would form Makoraba. So the author of "The Dabistan" wasn't a linguist. However, the Muslim year is based on the lunar calendar. So it would make sense that Mecca was previously associated with lunar or moon worship. The Middle Persian was an erosion, but couldn't the place-name Mecca have been an erosion of the Avestan Maonghah "Moon"?

And its so weird that I'm seeing a Semantic relationship between the Semitic root d-y-n "to render a decision" and the Avestan daena "law."

What you're saying about the early authors pointing to the Wisemen having come from Arabia is undeniable. In any case, there would appear to be a significant ancient and modern evidence that the Wisemen were Zoroastrian. The Roman's portrayed the Wisemen as Persians in art. There is the Infancy Gospel of Jesus Christ which appears to correlate to the Bahman Yasht and Solomon of Hilat. I even recall reading something on wikipedia about how the visit was influenced by Tirdad's visit to Nero. And Joseph Campbell points out that there is Zoroastrian imagery in both Mathew and Luke's versions of the Nativity like the Halo.

 

[bob x]

I would agree that Zoroastrianism, Christianity, and Islam have more relationships to each other than to Judaism.

Christian and Islamic scriptures have PERVASIVE references to the stories from Judaism, and ZERO references to any stories from the Avesta.

My opinion is that yes, Zoroastrianism did have a 7 hypostasis, Christianity emphasized a trinity, and Judaism doesn't, Islam doesn't, but that they are alike in the sense that each of these philosophies or religions had 1.) a God, 2.) personification of God on earth, and 3.) an intermediary between God and this personification of God on earth.

ONLY Christianity has a "personification of God on earth" (Zoroaster and Muhammad cannot be described in those terms, and would indeed condemn you thoroughly for suggesting any such thing), and no intermediary.

Was the obsession with the number 7 among the Jews a late addition too?

To the contrary: "count the days by sevens" is the very first commandment Moses received. It is far older than the Jews: in Sargon of Akkad's calendar, too, the days are reckoned in weeks, because of the quarter-phases of the moon (usually there are seven days from one quarter to the next; sometimes an eighth day has to be skipped).

Lawrence Mills mentions the connection of the 7 lamps in the Hebrew Bible to the 7 Amesha Spentas or hypostasis. And another thing: in the Hebrew Bible Zorobabel's name is associated with the 7 lamps

What in the world are you talking about??? There are no "7 lamps" in the "Hebrew Bible"; there is something like that in Revelation (Greek; Christian; late) but with no mention of "Zerubabbel" whatsoever.

I consider Iraq Arabia considering the Iraqis speak Arabic. Why wouldn't you?

AFTER ISLAM, they started speaking Arabic. We were talking about the naming of "Baghdad" which occurred when Aramaic was the language of the common people in Iraq but the political ruler was the Sassanid king. Why wouldn't a Persian-speaking king name a new city in Persian?

And also, why would the Arabian's have sought out a Messiah?

Now you're thinking that the story is actually true; it's actually a piece of propaganda. Of course Arabians wouldn't really have been looking for a "Messiah"; but it was useful to say so.

From what you mentioned it would appear that Mecca is a contraction of the Semitic k-r-b "to regulate the calendar" and the prefix Ma- which Ptolemy introduced which together would form Makoraba.

Sigh... no, Ptolemy did not "INTRODUCE" the m- prefix, which is the regular form for a "participial" in Semitic and always has been, for forming an adjective "doing [such-and-such]" or noun "one who does [such-and-such]" from any verbal root [such-and-such].

So the author of "The Dabistan" wasn't a linguist.

He is so ignorant that he makes up a story about the name "Medinah", when we know exactly when that name was given, and by whom, and what that person meant by it-- and this was such a crucial event in Muslim history that any even moderately-educated Muslim ought to have known all about it. So why are you putting any weight on what an ignorant book has to say?

The Middle Persian was an erosion, but couldn't the place-name Mecca have been an erosion of the Avestan Maonghah "Moon"?

Because we ACTUALLY KNOW what the older form of the place-name was, and that's not it.

And its so weird that I'm seeing a Semantic relationship between the Semitic root d-y-n "to render a decision" and the Avestan daena "law."

There are numerous borrowings from Semitic into Avestan. You can tell when the word is borrowed FROM Semitic rather than the other way around because it does not show up in any other Indo-European.

In any case, there would appear to be a significant ancient and modern evidence that the Wisemen were Zoroastrian. The Roman's portrayed the Wisemen as Persians in art.

That they were Persian was an early misunderstanding, easily explained because of the use of the word magoi .

There is the Infancy Gospel of Jesus Christ which appears to correlate to the Bahman Yasht and Solomon of Hilat.

That's post-Islamic. Of course the story is nowhere near its original shape when it is being retold six centuries later.

I even recall reading something on wikipedia about how the visit was influenced by Tirdad's visit to Nero. [/QUOTE}
What??? An arrogant Persian prince who insists on remaining armed in the presence of the emperor is a model for adoring wise men? I don't think so.

And Joseph Campbell points out that there is Zoroastrian imagery in both Mathew and Luke's versions of the Nativity like the Halo.

What??? There is nothing about any "halo" in either Matthew or Luke.

 

[mojobadshah]

Christian and Islamic scriptures have PERVASIVE references to the stories from Judaism, and ZERO references to any stories from the Avesta.

Christianity, and Islam is Zoroastrianism with a Judaic backstory.

ONLY Christianity has a "personification of God on earth" (Zoroaster and Muhammad cannot be described in those terms, and would indeed condemn you thoroughly for suggesting any such thing), and no intermediary.

I don't agree.

To the contrary: "count the days by sevens" is the very first commandment Moses received. It is far older than the Jews: in Sargon of Akkad's calendar, too, the days are reckoned in weeks, because of the quarter-phases of the moon (usually there are seven days from one quarter to the next; sometimes an eighth day has to be skipped).

What in the world are you talking about??? There are no "7 lamps" in the "Hebrew Bible"; there is something like that in Revelation (Greek; Christian; late) but with no mention of "Zerubabbel" whatsoever.

"And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:" - Zechariah 4.2

"For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth." - Zechariah 4.10

The number seven is pervasive in Zechariah.

AFTER ISLAM, they started speaking Arabic. We were talking about the naming of "Baghdad" which occurred when Aramaic was the language of the common people in Iraq but the political ruler was the Sassanid king. Why wouldn't a Persian-speaking king name a new city in Persian?

When was Arabic actually attested?

Now you're thinking that the story is actually true; it's actually a piece of propaganda. Of course Arabians wouldn't really have been looking for a "Messiah"; but it was useful to say so.

I knew that. I was just going to let you have you're way. Thought it would have been funny. But I also think it's interesting that there is an oral tradition among the Persians about what the 3 gifts really were, and it actually goes hand in hand with my etymology that the name Jesus is linked to the name Asha.

He is so ignorant that he makes up a story about the name "Medinah", when we know exactly when that name was given, and by whom, and what that person meant by it-- and this was such a crucial event in Muslim history that any even moderately-educated Muslim ought to have known all about it. So why are you putting any weight on what an ignorant book has to say?

How do you know that the Muslims weren't making it up?

Because we ACTUALLY KNOW what the older form of the place-name was, and that's not it.

Not sure I agree with you there, but you're the expert.

There are numerous borrowings from Semitic into Avestan. You can tell when the word is borrowed FROM Semitic rather than the other way around because it does not show up in any other Indo-European.

That's not the way I understood it. I was under the impression that Avestan was unaffected by other languages, there's no real way to determine if there were loans, and that it really doesn't mention foreign place-names, but I did hypothesize that there was a connection between the Avestan people and the Sumerians.

What??? There is nothing about any "halo" in either Matthew or Luke.

This is what Campbell says through K. R. Vincent: "Even though the Magi are not mentioned in Luke's account of the nativity, the imagery of light and angels reflects their relgion." Campbell says that " "the angelic host also relfects a Magian background, "since the glory of the Lord shines around. Such a radiance... the 'Light of Glory'--is the light of Ahura mazda's pristine creation symbolized by the halo which appears first in Persian art and then passes eastweard into the Buddhist and westward to the Christian sphere." "

 

[bob x]

Christianity, and Islam is Zoroastrianism with a Judaic backstory.

Judaism with a slight Zoroastrian overlay is more like it.

I don't agree.

You don't agree with what, here? You actually think Zoroaster was God Incarnate, and that it is standard Zoroastrian belief to think so? You think Muslims really believe that Muhammad was God Incarnate?

"And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:" - Zechariah 4.2

"For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth." - Zechariah 4.10

The number seven is pervasive in Zechariah.

My bad, I missed Zechariah 4. But the number seven is pervasive in Judaism from the very beginning.

When was Arabic actually attested?

The kingdoms of Saba in Yemen and Thamoud in northeast Arabia were writing in their own alphabetic scripts almost as long ago as alphabets were invented (before 1000 BC).

I also think it's interesting that there is an oral tradition among the Persians about what the 3 gifts really were

And I think it's annoying that you do not say anything about what this tradition is, or what source I could find it in.

How do you know that the Muslims weren't making it up?

Uhhh... we know that the Muslims weren't making up the story about Muhammad founding a religious "state" at Yathrib that went on to conquer Arabia, because that state continued to expand, into countries like Persia for example, all the way from Spain to India in fact.

I was under the impression that Avestan was unaffected by other languages

There has never ever ever been such a thing as a language unaffected by other languages. I guess this is the root of the problem here: you take it for granted that if anything is shared between Iranian and anything else, Iranian has to be the source, which is seldom the case.

I did hypothesize that there was a connection between the Avestan people and the Sumerians.

The Sumerians were conquered before 2000 BC, and had no overlap in time with any Iranians, who had no presence in the Middle East until many centuries later. Any commonality is the result of borrowings through Akkadian, which preserved many Sumerian words as formal alternates for their own words, as asha "order" for riddu considered the source of Sanskrit r.ta, Iranian arta.

This is what Campbell says through K. R. Vincent: "Even though the Magi are not mentioned in Luke's account of the nativity, the imagery of light and angels reflects their relgion."

But nobody at that time would have THOUGHT of it that way. "Angels" had been naturalized into Judaism in that period.

Campbell says that " "the angelic host also relfects a Magian background, "since the glory of the Lord shines around. Such a radiance... the 'Light of Glory'--is the light of Ahura mazda's pristine creation symbolized by the halo which appears first in Persian art and then passes eastweard into the Buddhist and westward to the Christian sphere." "

This is a little silly. Other people have also noticed Light, and considered it important. The specific "halo" is not in either Matthew or Luke.

 

[mojobadshah]

Judaism with a slight Zoroastrian overlay is more like it.

If you were to compare Zoroaster's philosophy, rituals, celebrations, combine the Iranian, and Greco-Roman accounts of Zoroaster's life you will find that Christianity is a slight variation of Zoroastrianism with the substitution of Jewish nomenclature.

You don't agree with what, here? You actually think Zoroaster was God Incarnate, and that it is standard Zoroastrian belief to think so? You think Muslims really believe that Muhammad was God Incarnate?

Mazda was existed in the unseen spiritual world, but the Amesha Spentas were his intermediaries between the unseen spiritual world and the seen material world. From what I know about Islam Allah revealed the Koran to Muhammad through his intermediary, the angel Gabriel.

I think that these people possessed the qualities that brought them close enough to Divine Union to consider them personifications of God. Zoroaster was the word incarnate, and the word was made by Mazda. The Koran was written by Muhammad.

My bad, I missed Zechariah 4. But the number seven is pervasive in Judaism from the very beginning.

Got examples? Important ones? Early ones?

And I think it's annoying that you do not say anything about what this tradition is, or what source I could find it in.

The tradition is that the 3 Magi brought 3 gifts with them from the east "Good thoughts, Good Words, and Good Deeds."

There has never ever ever been such a thing as a language unaffected by other languages. I guess this is the root of the problem here: you take it for granted that if anything is shared between Iranian and anything else, Iranian has to be the source, which is seldom the case.

There's no problem here Bob X and I don't take it for granted. I'm aware that these loan words are just not easy to trace.

But nobody at that time would have THOUGHT of it that way. "Angels" had been naturalized into Judaism in that period.

According to Geiger in "Arithmetica" the author mentions Zoroaster in connection with angels/stars. This text is contemporary with dating of the nearly complete texts of the NT around 3 CE.

This is a little silly. Other people have also noticed Light, and considered it important. The specific "halo" is not in either Matthew or Luke.

Doesn't the star move and appear hover over the newborn Christ?