What Moral and Social Phenomenon Did the Asuras Represent

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exile

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The Asuras include Asura, Dyaus-pitar, Indra (RV 1.54.3), Agni (RV 4.2.5; 7.2.3) Savitri (RV 1.35.7), Varuna (RV 1.24.14) Mitra, and Rudra or Shiva (RV 5.42.11). They are said to have represented moral and social phenomenon whereas the Devas represented natural phenomenon, but what moral and social phenomenon did the aforesaid Asuras represent?
 
The Asuras:
Asura,
Dyaus-pitar,
Indra,
Agni
Savitri
Varuna
Mitra, and
Rudra or Shiva.

They are said to have represented moral and social phenomenon whereas the Devas represented natural phenomenon, but what moral and social phenomenon did the aforesaid Asuras represent?
Click to expand...

The listed calls devas asura and visversa.
Asuras and Devas are progeny descending from a singular Grandfather Brahma.
Brahma is the first progenitor and also the engineer how manifested the cosmos et al.

Brahma's life span is long.
His great grandkids (aka Asuras and Devas) engaged in all sorts of court intrigues over the Kalpas (aka, a Day of Brahma).

We read of some of the important accounts of such life-time pastimes in the Rg Veda.

Why the particular events in the Rg Veda, as we have them today, have been passed down ---I do not know.

It is very very reasonable (from vedantic scholar's POV) to consider that the Volumes of Vedas that we humans possess ARE FRAGMENTS OF THE TOTAL STORY.

With a family tree of the Asuras and Devas one can see the realtionships between the Asuras and Devas and also the time-lines of their specific life-times.

OH AND BTW . . .

IMO, I am willing to bet that there are 100 times more Names and references in the Smrti Vedas than typically bandied about ---IMO many Personages are mentioned indirectly with terms of familiarity and with sir-titles or even personal names ---other than, the usual list of personae dramaticus.

BTW, the names listed ie:
Asura,
Dyaus-pitar,
Indra,
Agni
Savitri
Varuna
Mitra, and
Rudra
are all Job-Titles ---department head Post-Titles. Newly assigned to new commers multiple times during the course of Brahma's Kalpa and what to speak of, during the change of Manus.

The Devas along with their literally, 'familial cousins' the Asuras Are the Supreme-Personification-of-Ministerial-Departments-of-universal-Governence-&-Operation ---IOW, the universe's Aristocracy.

With absolute power comes the occasional Caligula or Nero or Claudius types with Nepolian Complexes.

Indeed the acts and behavior and legacy of the universe's Aristocracy sets the tone for future generations.

Asuras and Devas are both CEO and living embodiment of the Universe's Superintendents.

But they are God's due to the temporary entrustment of their alloted posts as Demigods within the material universe.

They are noble and pious souls that earned there place . . . and their temporal chance to occupy an exclusive post . . . to take birth among the Devas.

Nobless Oblige vs whimsical delinquncy prompts the sober Devas to chastise their up-start cousins those that side against the Devas status-quo.

Savitri is the Sun's Preciding Deity etc etc etc.

Their obligations to duty are "Role Models" for 'all the world to pursue'.

Their neglect of duty is lessons hard learnt too.

It's a mutual relation that we peons have with ruling classes . . . we rely on the playing field being maintained for the liberty of all.
 
bhaktajan said:
The listed calls devas asura and visversa.
Asuras and Devas are progeny descending from a singular Grandfather Brahma.
Brahma is the first progenitor and also the engineer how manifested the cosmos et al.
Click to expand...

When does this idea appear? Is it as early as the RV?

Is it possible that the Asuras at first represented abstract concepts eg.

Agni "messenger"

Savitr "?"

Varuna "order"

Mitravaruna "truth and order"

Rudra two or three times "?"

Dyaus "father"

Aryaman "friend"

Pusan "?"

Parjanya "?"

While the Devas represented natural phenomenon?

Could the term Asura original was attributed to one Asura and gradually extended to multiple Asuras? I came across this passage which appears to be badly cited. "Asura [who] rules over the Gods" (AV 1.10.1, cf. RV II.27.10) I say badly cited because the cite for RV II.27.10 doesn't seem to say anything like this and the AV is arranged all out of whack so I can't even confirm that that text says anything like this too. 1.) Am I reading the RV passage wrong and 2.) how do I find the second passage?
 
When does this idea appear?
Click to expand...

bhaktajan said:
the Volumes of Vedas that we humans possess ARE FRAGMENTS OF THE TOTAL STORY.

With a family tree of the Asuras and Devas one can see the realtionships between the Asuras and Devas and also the time-lines of their specific life-times.
Click to expand...

Below are two direct links to a file-share site [no sign-up required] ---you can down load it or share this link too.

ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

You may "Down-loaded" the file from this file sharing link:

Here are both Links pt 1 & pt 2 of 2 parts:

Part 1 of 2: http://www.box.com/s/ fjd5dh7xilt8q90aap7n
Part 2 of 2: http://www.box.com/s/ cnq378tx575bf2oxc5vd

The 2 documents are in the same format as a regular photo that is sent via e-mail methods.

The 2 documents are "J-Pegs" ---it's a standard computer-ese name for the "type of file".

Such files must be "Down-loaded" to your computer ---[usually it then gets stored as a Picture-Doc [a 'jpeg'] where all other photos [jpegs] are stored on the computer.

You may have only seen a 'thumb-nail' size preview at the bottom of the email letter ---there will be a sort of button to click-on that says, [download file].

ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

This is a gift for Vedic Scholars’ use and viewing ---a Family Tree
of the Srimad-Bhagavatam.

I pray that you find these two attachments enlivening and nectarian.
I would hope that you may want to see this prototype.

This Bhagavatam Family Tree is type set at 11 point font and at 100%
size measures 16' wide x 6' High.

It contains approx 3,000 Names from approx 563 Slokas --all from A.C.
Bhaktivedanta Swami’s Bhagavatam.

Each name is paired-up to its Sloka Number. This one-page document,
done on a single MS Excel spread-sheet includes over a Hundred color
pictures of the very same personalties discussed in the Puranas.
And a multi-tiered Time-line in displayed including the
brahma-madhva-gaudiya-sampradaya is shown.

MS Excel is the Original format version of this family tree document
[500,000 Kb ~1/2GB for a one page document].

This Family-tree Project of mine, presented here is not meant for
casual viewing since it is Gigantic ---it encompasses the historical
time-line upon which all the Vedic literatures can be dated ---as per
the Personalities’ names appearing in most all Puranas.

Please advise --- Any insights that you gain will be have provided me
with a sense of relief and great repose.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Some points on printing:
It can printed on standard printer (and of course in color).
Remember, it is a "jpeg" file ---thus, it's simply treated like any
typical Graphic (or photo) you already have on file stored in the
computer.

But, it's a mega size picture, so your options to print are:
Print on multiple pages ---ideally 11x17 sheets, that must be taped together.
As is the usual routine, one must manually set the printer margins and
also, looked at the 'preview' of those pages before printing ---this
informs you as to know how many pages will be used.

Alternatively, with access to an engineers' of architect's CAD
Printers ---one can set the page-set-up perameters to "Fit the Page"
such that the large jpeg picture is told to fit the jumbo paper stock
of CAD printers [usl 36" wide min.]

Do you have connections to an engineers' of architect's CAD Printers
[color printers!]? ---That's the most expeditious way!
BTW, connecting your computer (via an 'S-Video' cable) to a video
projector or to a large TV screen would give a good view.

Lastly, use any regular photo viewing program ie MSPicture viewer or
Windows Photo Viewer etc ---you can vie one file at a time . . . but,
then,via the ARROW button on that program, you advance to the next
adjacent jpeg [each jpeg is numerically named and thus stored and thus
view sequentially by a viewing program].

The nectar here, is that all the puranas ---via the names of
the people that populate each purana [the names are benchmarks] ---can
be dated, and placed of the Family Tree in a way similar to hanging
Christmas Tree with Bulbs and Ornaments.

PS: the lingering flaw, other than yet to be found typos, is my
time-line of the past two thousand years alignment with the
sampradaya.

Enjoy the nectar.

yours in Krsna's Devotees' service,
Bhaktajan


Please inform me if you are UN-ABLE to open the files.
 
The following are the only gods that are mentioned as Asuras in the earliest of the Rig Vedic compositions (Family Books 2-7). Could these gods have originally represented abstract concepts?

Agni was the first of the angiras who were Atharvans "fire priests." The eponym angiras is akin to the word angel "messenger." Agni was the messenger god.

Let us consecrate always for the sacrifice Agni, kindled by Manu in the manner of Manu, the asura worthy of being praised by us, very powerful, the messenger of true speech between the two world-halves. - RV 7.2.3

The name Savitr means "vivifier." Savitr was the god who provided Ayu "life."

Aware of the going forth of the asura, favor the god Savitr with songs. The knowing one should encourage (him) with prostration and (also encourage) the one distributing the great treasure of Ayu. - RV 5.49.2

The god Varuna was the keeper of rta "cosmic order."

You, O Varuna, are king of all, both who are gods and who are mortals, O asura. Grant to us to see a hundred autumns. May we attain ancient, well-established life-spans" - RV 2.27.10

(Strike) us not, O Varuna, in your search with the weapons which strike the one committing sin, O asura. May we not go to privations of light. Keep injuries well away that we may live. - RV 7.36.2

Mitra is the god of unity and Varuna as previously mentioned is the god of rta "truth or order."

I make anew this song like nourishment for you two, O Mitravaruna, O asuras. One powerful one of you is an undeceivable pathfinder (?), and the one called Mitra unites the people. - RV 7.36.2

Rudra is the god of health.

Praise him who has good arrows and a good bow, who rules over all medicine. Sacrifice for great well-being to Rudra; favor the god, the asura with prostrations. - RV 5.42.11

Pusan, the protector god, is named an Asura in RV 5.51.11.

You, O Agni, (as) Rudra, (are) the asura of great heaven; you (as) the Marut troop rule over strength; you go with the reddish winds bring health to the households; you (as) Pusan in person indeed protect the worshippers. - RV 2.1.6

In the Hymn to Parjanya the god Parjanya is described as the "father asura."

O Maruts, give to us the rain of the sky, cause to swell the rivers of the male horse. Come toward us with this thunder sprinkling water (as) our father asura. - RV 5.83.6

The only inconsistency is Dyaus if one is to accept that the god Dyaus "sky" is the asura being referred to in "heroes of the asura" (RV 3.53.7). But could the authors have been referring to all the asuras in the singular? Dyaus is not actually named in this verse and none of the derivatives of Asura are used for Dyaus in the Family Books 2-7 either.

These generous Angirases in another form, sons of the sky (divas putraso), heroes of the asura, giving gifts to Visvamitra in the thousandfold soma pressing cross forth to long life. - RV 3.53.7
 
exile said:
Could these gods have originally represented abstract concepts?
Click to expand...

No. That is Not what is revealed in the vedic literatures.

The Devas are the first born progeny of Brahma's descendents.

To understand the Personages of the Devas and their cousins, known as "asuric" (neglecting rules that align with Surya et al), these cousins of the 'Suras', are the highly born individuals that resort to "Self-aggrandisement" at the expense of civil rights.

The devas are civil servants of Universal Management.
The asuras are deva-borne souls that spurn the rules civility.

The are exclusive individuals living in high places that are custodians of the multitudes ---they are NOT resturant waitors nor bell-hops nor porters for mortals.

We are made privy to their existance and prior pastimes and the more reknowned ancient events and their attendees.

Check out my link ---yes! Trust me that it isn't a Virus nor a set-up to tresspass upon your computer's health.

REMEMBER: When you travel in life ...in your immediate surroundings... see how each thing you pass is "PERSONIFIED" by so unknown PERSON how is lord of the Manor or Master of that Craft.

The Sidewalk was layed by masons. The Electrics install by engineers. The Plane piloted by seasoned ex-military vets. The doctors with 12 years of medical school ---all of whom live beyond your sphere of life in exclusive neighborhoods with stratums of life that are un-attainable (aka, highly-desirable) and rarified.

How often do you mingle with high level goverment officals? Tychoons? Investment Bankers? Shipping Moghols? Casino Owners? Chief of Police? ---nonetheless they are our Terrestrial equivilant of demigods (devas).

They runs things behind the scene ---while we human-creatures run around like meek chicks.

kindled by Manu in the manner of Manu
Click to expand...


IMO, I don't understand the fixation on seperating shruti from smriti.

The difference is purely a scholarly curiosisty ---it is NOT a scriptural injunction to neglect the revelations of the Puranas, Puranas that illuminate the relationships and biography of the "Family of Devas and Asuras".

They are a whole. Always were. The events in the Rg veda are "parsed recounting(s)".

One needs to know specific "relationships & backgrounds" to piece together the aphorisms of the Rg veda.

It is false to disregard the Purana's that Vyasa wrote ---just as he too wrote the Vedanta-sutra (commentary of the 4-Vedas) ---just as he too wrote the Puranas (pre-western histories of the Vedas).

NOTE: There are 14 Manus during a Kalpa (Brahma's 24 celestial Hours).

That one singular mention ('Manu') is enough to substatiate what I have posted earlier.
 
bhaktajan said:
No. That is Not what is revealed in the vedic literatures.

The Devas are the first born progeny of Brahma's descendents.

To understand the Personages of the Devas and their cousins, known as "asuric" (neglecting rules that align with Surya et al), these cousins of the 'Suras', are the highly born individuals that resort to "Self-aggrandisement" at the expense of civil rights.

The devas are civil servants of Universal Management.
The asuras are deva-borne souls that spurn the rules civility.

The are exclusive individuals living in high places that are custodians of the multitudes ---they are NOT resturant waitors nor bell-hops nor porters for mortals.

We are made privy to their existance and prior pastimes and the more reknowned ancient events and their attendees.

Check out my link ---yes! Trust me that it isn't a Virus nor a set-up to tresspass upon your computer's health.

REMEMBER: When you travel in life ...in your immediate surroundings... see how each thing you pass is "PERSONIFIED" by so unknown PERSON how is lord of the Manor or Master of that Craft.

The Sidewalk was layed by masons. The Electrics install by engineers. The Plane piloted by seasoned ex-military vets. The doctors with 12 years of medical school ---all of whom live beyond your sphere of life in exclusive neighborhoods with stratums of life that are un-attainable (aka, highly-desirable) and rarified.

How often do you mingle with high level goverment officals? Tychoons? Investment Bankers? Shipping Moghols? Casino Owners? Chief of Police? ---nonetheless they are our Terrestrial equivilant of demigods (devas).

They runs things behind the scene ---while we human-creatures run around like meek chicks.




IMO, I don't understand the fixation on seperating shruti from smriti.

The difference is purely a scholarly curiosisty ---it is NOT a scriptural injunction to neglect the revelations of the Puranas, Puranas that illuminate the relationships and biography of the "Family of Devas and Asuras".

They are a whole. Always were. The events in the Rg veda are "parsed recounting(s)".

One needs to know specific "relationships & backgrounds" to piece together the aphorisms of the Rg veda.

It is false to disregard the Purana's that Vyasa wrote ---just as he too wrote the Vedanta-sutra (commentary of the 4-Vedas) ---just as he too wrote the Puranas (pre-western histories of the Vedas).

NOTE: There are 14 Manus during a Kalpa (Brahma's 24 celestial Hours).

That one singular mention ('Manu') is enough to substatiate what I have posted earlier.
Click to expand...

I tried to access those links but they didn't resolve. In any case I'm not sure that the Asuras could be considered a group distinct from the Devas. I just finished reading "Asura in the Early Vedic Religion" and the author Wash Edward Hale claims this and that, if I understand him correctly, all the gods that are called Asuras are still the [good] gods [devas] in later texts. The only thing that changes is the term Asura is dropped when referring to them, and is used in a negative sense. He says that Asura originally meant one with special tactical skills and could be applied to both gods and men and friends and foes. But over time it developed a negative meaning and ceased to be associated with the gods. I would, however, like to research my own hypothesis further by investigating into the qualities of the gods not mentioned in the aforesaid list that are mentioned in the Family Books 2-7. I recall you posting a link to a site that cites all the terms in the Vedas. Could you do me a solid and post the link to that again.
 
exile said:
I'm not sure that the Asuras could be considered a group distinct from the Devas.
Click to expand...

They are cousins ---because they have the same Uncles.


I recall you posting a link to a site that cites all the terms in the Vedas. Could you do me a solid and post the link to that again.
Click to expand...

"Term of the Vedas" ---no it was not me.

but I did do this:

http://www.interfaith.org/forum/divisions-of-the-vedic-literatures-12864.html

Any way sounds like you are gonna have an adventurous path. Bring back some t-shirts!

**********************
Attached is a portion of the Family tree of the Personalities of the Vedas as per the Bhagavata Purana.
 

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So I've scanned through the Rig Veda books 2-7. It would appear that all the Asura-Devas and the 3 or 4 Adityas mentioned in these books could be described as abstract concepts. Of course there is still an issue with RV 3.35.7.

These generous Angirases in another form, sons of the sky (divas putraso), heroes of the asura, giving gifts to Visvamitra in the thousandfold soma pressing cross forth to long life. – RV 3.53.7

Is it possible that the asura mentioned here is not Dyaus?
 
a bit more scanned just for this reply
 

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and finally a portion of Visvamitra's biography.

BTW, all of the above excerpts are from my hard copy of the "Puranic Encyclopedia" ---I included the page number in the scan.
 

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