Atheist or Agnostic; which do you prefer?

Namaste Jesus

Namaste Jesus

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Being a believer in God, I would prefer it if everyone had such faith. In the world we live in however, this is simply not a realistic expectation. There will always be believers, non-believers and those who are undecided. Eventhough I've believed in God for as long as I can remember, I actually have no problem with Atheists. The way I see it, Atheists have had access to the same spiritual data as believers. While one choose to believe it, the other did not. Fair enough. The Agnostic on the other hand, has also had access to this spiritual data, but either can't or won't make a decision one way or the other. It's this indecisiveness I take exception with. I liken it to encountering a sign with arrows on either end. One end reads, Believers, the other Non-believers. The Atheist goes one way and the believer the other. The Agnostic on the otherhand, just stands there staring at the sign. Effectively living life in limbo, never able to identify with either side, but arguing with both.
 
Well now that is an interesting interpretation. I perceive it more as a trinity of paths. One path for the religious, the agnostics and the atheists. And those in the Western religions like trinities, right?

Okay I'm pulling your leg a little. But just a little. After all, agnosticism doesn't mean no spiritual faith at all; it means there is no proof for or against Gods. Like the religious umbrella, there are many versions of agnostics under the agnosticism umbrella. There are many who believe in a divineness to the universe, but do not necessarily attach any Gods to the equation.

That happens to be my stance. I've been around this world for quite some time, and I have come to realize that there is more to reality than physical existence. There is something deeper, and what we should call that could take volumes to attempt to explain. My world view has no Gods however.

The divine is within me. It is within each of us. It is there for all of us to find if only we choose to look for it. For some and outside influence helps them get there, but not all of us.
 
Gordian Knot said:
Well now that is an interesting interpretation. I perceive it more as a trinity of paths. One path for the religious, the agnostics and the atheists. And those in the Western religions like trinities, right?

Okay I'm pulling your leg a little. But just a little. After all, agnosticism doesn't mean no spiritual faith at all; it means there is no proof for or against Gods. Like the religious umbrella, there are many versions of agnostics under the agnosticism umbrella. There are many who believe in a divineness to the universe, but do not necessarily attach any Gods to the equation.

That happens to be my stance. I've been around this world for quite some time, and I have come to realize that there is more to reality than physical existence. There is something deeper, and what we should call that could take volumes to attempt to explain. My world view has no Gods however.

The divine is within me. It is within each of us. It is there for all of us to find if only we choose to look for it. For some and outside influence helps them get there, but not all of us.
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Yeah I get that. For me, you fall into the believer catagory. Not in the traditional sense perhaps, but a devine belief all the same. I was speaking more about Agnostics still on the fence. Those that can't make up their minds one way or the other.
 
Once again, NJ, I have to say that is an interesting interpretation! lol. I suppose that would mean that my belief is Secular Divinity. Is that a whole new branch of theology??? Cause I don't believe I have ever heard of such a concept before. Yet the concept must exist, there are precious few new ideas in the world.
 
Gordian Knot said:
Once again, NJ, I have to say that is an interesting interpretation! lol. I suppose that would mean that my belief is Secular Divinity. Is that a whole new branch of theology??? Cause I don't believe I have ever heard of such a concept before. Yet the concept must exist, there are precious few new ideas in the world.
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Ha,ha,ha! I wonder if I could get a patent on that? Seriously though, I didn't put you in the belief column for secular Divinity in and of itself, it was something else you said, "The divine is within me. It is within each of us". Both Christian and Hindu scripture say this. I believe this to be very true. Where we differ is how we make that connection. Mine is via an eternal God, while yours is not, but to me, that matters little. The base idea is the same.
 
An agnostic is merely someone who acknowledges the obvious: That we have no way of knowing if there is a God. There's nothing indecisive about saying "I don't know."

I am an agnostic. But I am also a religious Jew. I'm far from the only one. Indeed, most people I know don't even so a conflict there. Only fundamentalists and "new" atheists ever object.

My argument is simple: At the very least, God is a useful metaphor for the best part of human nature, and that alone is worth worshiping.
 
Hi LS, welcome and thanks for your input. This forum is all about sharing ideas and different points of view. I hope you will enjoy the time spent here.
 
Hi Lincoln, welcome to the forum :)

I'm new here myself and used to be an agnostic, now a total heretical follower of Jesus. I also consider 'agnostic' an intellectually honest position.

Good to have you joining here, I haven't seen anyone Jewish posting here recently. And you seem to have a rather unique position on religions. I'll look forward to reading your fresh perspectives on things!


Tad
 
Gordian Knot said:
There are many who believe in a divineness to the universe, but do not necessarily attach any Gods to the equation.
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I feel you're kind of referring to 'deists' here, which I myself started as. There are some deists who reject the term 'god' to describe what they consider a 'divineness', but there also are quite a few deists who just go ahead and use the term 'god' but adamantly separate what it means from the concept of god of any religious establishment.

Gordian Knot said:
I suppose that would mean that my belief is Secular Divinity. Is that a whole new branch of theology???
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Secular Divinity, mmm... Again, what you're describing sounds a lot like Deism to me. But I think you get to call it whatever you decide to call it, I guess.:D I talked to a guy in a deists' forum once who identified himself as a deist, but also called himself a secular Catholic because of his religious upbringing. I used to call myself 'theistic rationalist' or 'a theist without a religion'.

Namaste Jesus said:
"The divine is within me. It is within each of us". Both Christian and Hindu scripture say this. I believe this to be very true. Where we differ is how we make that connection.
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My thought exactly.;)


Tad
 
I guess I need to clarify some of the statements I made in the OP. First of all, let me just say that I am fully aware of the definition of Agnostic. I just question the validity of that position when it comes to matters of faith. After all, faith by definition is the belief in that which can not be proven nor disproven. Faith is the basis of every major religion in the world. So when considering whether or not to believe in God, we know going in, that we can neither prove nor disprove God's existence. At least not in human terms. The best we can do is read the scriptures and other information available to us, weigh the pros and cons and decide from there. Atheists and Believers do just that. Decide one way or the other. Agnostics on the othe rhand remain in limbo, stating what they already knew going in, that God's existence can neither be proven nor disproven.

Now, I'm primarily talking about those who have studied some sort of faith based doctrine. Those who have not, may well consider themselves to be Agnostic based on the definition of faith alone. I feel that, once you've studied the data available however, one can easily make a decision. For me, the inability or unwillingness to do so demonstrates indecisiveness.


It is amazing to me just how many believers there are that think they are Agnostic. This may stem from poor translations and conflicting accounts in the various religious scriptures or it could be just the inability to grasp the overall meaning contained thereof. I'm really not sure, but many do have a very good sense of the Divine, yet still call themselves Agnostic. They feel it. They know it in their gut, but since they can't put a face on it or are unwilling to call it God, they presume themselves Agnostic. In my view, if you have a sense of the Divine, you are a believer. It matters not if you do not agree with every account in the scripture. Nor does it matter if you see God not as a Deity, but as a presence inside of us directly connecting us to each other and indeed the universe. You are a believer. I just feel that, in a lot of cases the term (Agnostic) is misused. I think deep down inside, everyone knows whether or not they believe. I suppose one could argue that in the strictest sense of the word, there are no believers, only Atheists and Agnostics, but to me, saying you're Agnostic tends to deny your own feelings....
 
You seem to base you opinion on whether or not someone is agnostic on your idea of what God is. But since a lot of people don't share you idea of what God is, their idea if they are agnostic or not is different from yours.

I do take offence of your analysis of agnosticism. while insisting on knowing what agnosticism is to make a lot of assumptions I doubt any agnostic would share. I wonder what you would feel if I insisted that you were religious simply because you just don't know better.

Based on your previous posts, I think you can do better then this. Asking genuine questions are always a start.
 
A Cup Of Tea said:
You seem to base you opinion on whether or not someone is agnostic on your idea of what God is. But since a lot of people don't share you idea of what God is, their idea if they are agnostic or not is different from yours.

I do take offence of your analysis of agnosticism. while insisting on knowing what agnosticism is to make a lot of assumptions I doubt any agnostic would share. I wonder what you would feel if I insisted that you were religious simply because you just don't know better.

Based on your previous posts, I think you can do better then this. Asking genuine questions are always a start.
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My idea of God has nothing to do with my feelings toward Agnostics. I know very well not everyone sees God the same way. I said as much in the post. All I'm saying is, if you have some concept of the devine, no matter what that may be, physical, spiritual or what have you, than you are not Agnostic. This is just my personal opinion, I don't know what you are taking offence at. You haven't even bothered to state what your personal opinion on the subject is, only to attack mine. If you were to insist I was religious because I didn't know better, it wouldn't really offend me, because I think it would show your ignorance more than mine. I'm sorry if you don't like or perhaps just don't understand my posts, but I see no need for the personal attack. I would have thought better of you.
 
Nick the Pilot said:
Tad,

What, in your opinion, is the difference between a Deist and a Theist?
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I think the biggest difference is that most theists believe in a personal relationship with God, in a sense that one can have (spiritual) conversations with God like the way a child and a parent would... and most deists, I think, picture God to be more like a force than a personal being, ... well, at least that's my understanding.

Prior to joining this forum, I participated in a deists' forum for a little while... and below is from someone's post there that attempted to explain different types of deism.

Classical Deism - A personal God exists and has an intelligence and a will. God created the universe for a purpose. Although God does not intervene in the universe, God cares. Believe in an afterlife. This is classical English deism.

Modern Deism - An indifferent God exists and has an intelligence and a will. God does not care about the fate of the universe. Do not believe in an afterlife.

Post-Modern Deism - An impersonal God exists, that is basically just a force. God does not possess conscious intelligence or will. Do not believe in an afterlife.

I indentified myself with Classical Deism. But I felt unsatisfied with the part that God does not intervene... and I read a wikipedia page for 'theistic rationalism'... it said "Theistic rationalists believe that God plays an active role in human life, rendering prayer effective." And I thought, that's what I believe too!

Tad
 
Tad,

You have brought up some interesting differences, although I do not think such differences are used in everyday conversational English. (I do not think a small group or people on an Internet forum are going to change the English language in this way.)

Do you believe in miracles, in other words, do you believe in times when the physical laws of nature are set aside for a moment, in order to answer someone's prayer?
 
Nick the Pilot said:
Tad,

You have brought up some interesting differences, although I do not think such differences are used in everyday conversational English. (I do not think a small group or people on an Internet forum are going to change the English language in this way.)

Do you believe in miracles, in other words, do you believe in times when the physical laws of nature are set aside for a moment, in order to answer someone's prayer?
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Sounds like a very good topic for a new thread. Any thoughts on the question posed in this one?
 
Apparently my attempts to clarify my position on this matter has had the opposite effect. Since elaborating didn't work, let's try simplification.
The question posed was, out of the two, which do you prefer, Atheist or Agnostic?
I said, that, though I am a believer in God, I find Atheist to be a more decisive position to take than Agnostic, since in matters of faith we know going in that the existence of God can neither be proven nor disproven and that faith itself is to believe in something without proof. I further question the validity of the Agnostic position since many Agnostics profess to have some sort of divine belief. That's my opinion in a nutshell. I realize not everyone will share this opinion and I welcome opposing views. I see no need however, for personal attacks or attempts to discredit anyone for expressing their opinion. So please, if you choose to respond, just answer the question asked and state your case.
 
Allow me to offer my view on 'agnosticism' that is almost opposite of yours. I for one find agnosticism much more an intellectually honest position than atheism.

I think we all agree that we cannot (probably ever) 100% conceive the mysterious nature of the universe with our painfully limited human brains. We can never know if there's another realm other than here or if so what's there (until we die). To me, people who don't (or won't) even consider this possibility and decide that there are no other realms and nothing's there, exhibit a bit of ignorance and arrogance... I think deciding on something just for the sake of deciding (or taking a position) lacks thoughtfulness. I think it's better that people don't cast a vote when they're not sure on the issue. But of course, I have nothing against atheists, as long as they're respectful of people of faith.

And there's another type of agnostic, which I had been for a long time, who'd respond to the question "do you believe in God?" like this:
"Gee, I don't know, I've never given any thought to it. I mean I can't know for sure anyway, so why spend my time on it?"

There's a word to describe this type of person, 'apatheist'... according to wikipedia, it's someone who considers the question of the existence of god(s) as neither that important nor relevant to their lives. I'd say this is the majority of Japanese.


Tad
 
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