The law of the two or three witnesses.

WolfgangvonUSA

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Our discussion of Paul has brought the Law of two or three witnesses into question, so I thought it is a topic that deserves more attention.
The law of the two or three witnesses.
2 Corinthians 13:1 THIS [is] the third [time] I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.​
Obviously the word "every" is well clear.
The law of the witnesses was given from God with a precise purpose:"refute or confirm a truth, human or divine. Usually "our friends" locate what they thinks is the weak ring in the chain and from there they start to attack.
If we consider seriously to the light of the scriptures, and above all on the light of the law of the witnesses, we will see what are the real weak rings in the chain of the great apostate doctrines.
The law of the two or three witnesses was given in the law of Moses and many people maintain that it was given in cases of justice, but instead its purpose was far greater like Paul wrote in 2 Corinthians 13:1 It was a real law to prove or disprove eternal truths and even the Lord Jesus supported it in these particular cases like we are going to prove by the scriptures.
John 8:13-18
The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.

John 8:14
14 Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, [yet] my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.

John 8:15
15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.

John 8:16
16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

John 8:17
17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

John 8:18
18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
Jesus accepted the challenge because He knew that the challenge was fair and here it is interesting also because Jesus compare His Father to a man.
Jesus, previously, had already referred to this law personally.
John 5:31-34
¶ If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

John 5:32
32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.

John 5:33
33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.

John 5:34
34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.
Also in Matthew 18:15-16
Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

Matthew 18:16
16 But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
At this point it would be very interesting to garble the great doctrines of the different churches, if they have no witnesses in the Bible or just one, surely they will fail the test.​
___________________________________________​
As a footnote I think it is rather curious that when Paul cites the rule of three witnesses, he apparently seems to think that his testimony given three times counts as 3 witnesses. Me, myself and I? Is he crazy or what?​
2 Corinthians 13:1 THIS [is] the third [time] I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.​
 
So who are the two or three witnesses to the life, crucifixtion and ressurection of Jesus?


Certainly none of the authors of the Canonical Gospels. Certainly not Paul. Who does that leave?
 
If you wish to proceed with this not only did Paul receive a vision that he should go to Damascus but Ananias received a vision to get Paul when he got there. That is two people enough to believe as a fact. Not to mention the people with Paul on the journey who didn’t understand/ hear the message.
 
Abogado del Diablo said:
So who are the two or three witnesses to the life, crucifixtion and ressurection of Jesus?


Certainly none of the authors of the Canonical Gospels. Certainly not Paul. Who does that leave?
Actually both Mathew and John where apostles. That is two. Although only John was actually at the cross.
 
JJM said:
Actually both Mathew and John where apostles. That is two. Although only John was actually at the cross.
How do you know this?

Most scholars think Matthew was copying from Mark (who also wasn't a first hand witness). And the only evidence about the author of John is double hearsay from Iraeneus - the book itself doesn't identify its author.
 
JJM said:
If you wish to proceed with this not only did Paul receive a vision that he should go to Damascus but Ananias received a vision to get Paul when he got there. That is two people enough to believe as a fact. Not to mention the people with Paul on the journey who didn’t understand/ hear the message.
The law of the two or three witnesses is widely accepted by theologians (and by common sense).

Since Luke was never mentioned by any of the original apostles, he is basically an unknown, and therefore not an authority for anything. Anybody can write a book and claim it is is inspired. If I wrote one, you would not accept it. The Catholics accepted Paul and his disciple, Luke, only because their agendas were compatible.

The claims of Paul to receive a vision from Christ without witnesses are doubly doutful because they are contained in a fictional book written by Luke, a person who was never recognized to be an authority by the Twelve.

And besides, the events in Acts are soundly contradicted by Paul's own account in Galatians (in which he never mentioned a vision on the road to Damascus) and are also contradicted by Matthew, Mark and John. Holy scripture cannot contain blatant contradictions.

And Jesus never predicted the arrival of new apostles beyond The Twelve, He only predicted the arrival of new false apostles.
 
I will read Galatians today but you are wrong about none of the other apostles mentioning him:

2 Peter 3
15Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.



2 Peter was written by Peter thus the name. So unless you wish to claim that this letter is a fake too simply because it contradicts you. Also if you think that Acts is fictional you have no reason not to think the entire bible is fictional unless you just want a reason to hate Paul and now that all of your other excuses have fallen through you resort to pretending that Acts is false. Also if it is fake then why did you use it to prove things against Paul? Obviously if these things never happened then it doesn't Matter what Paul does in these books. And also if it is a fake then it shouldn’t matter what Paul wrote in Galatians because it doesn’t have anything to contradict.
 
Abogado del Diablo said:
How do you know this?

Most scholars think Matthew was copying from Mark (who also wasn't a first hand witness). And the only evidence about the author of John is double hearsay from Iraeneus - the book itself doesn't identify its author.
True Matthew was copying form Mark but he was also elaborating on it. THe reason I think that these books where written by those authors is the same reaons I trust that Jesus did in fact rise from the Dead. the answer is faith.
 
JJM said:
True Matthew was copying form Mark but he was also elaborating on it. THe reason I think that these books where written by those authors is the same reaons I trust that Jesus did in fact rise from the Dead. the answer is faith.


Exactly. Faith - that's all there is as the basis of literal Christianity. There are no "two or three witnesses" though, which was my point.

As far as Matthew "elaborating" on Mark, that is unsupported and doubtful.

As J. C. Fenton argues in "The Gospel of Saint Matthew" (p. 12):

It is usually thought that Mark's Gospel was written about A.D. 65 and that the author of it was neither one of the apostles nor an eyewitness of the majority of the events recorded in his Gospel. Matthew was therefore dependent on the writing of such a man for the production of his book. What Matthew has done, in fact, is to produce a second and enlarged edition of Mark. Moreover, the changes which he makes in Mark's way of telling the story are not those corrections which an eyewitness might make in the account of one who was not an eyewitness. Thus, whereas in Mark's Gospel we may be only one remove from eyewitnesses, in Matthew's Gospel we are at one remove further still.

I would add that not even Iraeneus and Eusebius dared suggest the author of Mark was a first-hand witness, as it's author wasn't even familiar with basic geography of the region. As Randal Helms explains in "Who Wrote the Gospels" (p.6):

"Anyone approaching Jerusalem from Jericho would come first to Bethany and then Bethphage, not the reverse. This is one of several passages showing that Mark knew little about Palestine; we must assume, Dennis Nineham argues, that 'Mark did not know the relative positions of these two villages on the Jericho road' (1963, 294-295). Indeed, Mark knew so little about the area that he described Jesus going from Tyrian territory 'by way of Sidon to the Sea of Galilee through the territory of the Ten Towns' (Mark 7:31); this is similar to saying that one goes from London to Paris by way of Edinburgh and Rome. The simplist solution, says Nineham, is that 'the evangelist was not directly acquainted with Palestine' (40)."

Nobody seriously argues (except based on "faith") that the authors of John (probably written around 90 CE) or Luke (who was at best a disciple of Paul - possibly Philemon) were eyewitnesses either. The evidence pretty clearly suggests that none of the authors of the canonical Gospels were witnesses to the events described in them. Have we fallen into the trap of discussing arational vs. irrational faith?
 
I would also add that the Gospel of John has a number of passages that strongly suggest a Gnostic origin. The version we see now may, in fact, as Helms argues, be a revised version of a Gnostic Gospel. Elaine Pagels gives this theory some consideration as well. Helms, after reviewing anti-heretic writings of the second century CE opposing the early belief that John was written by Cerinthus, concludes that there may have been an early "Gnostic" John that was revised to create the version we have today. The would certainly explain Pagels' misgivings about the strange mix of Gnostic and Literalist thought in the Gospel of John.
 
JJM said:
I will read Galatians today but you are wrong about none of the other apostles mentioning him:
JJM said:
2 Peter 3
15Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.



2 Peter was written by Peter thus the name. So unless you wish to claim that this letter is a fake too simply because it contradicts you. Also if you think that Acts is fictional you have no reason not to think the entire bible is fictional unless you just want a reason to hate Paul and now that all of your other excuses have fallen through you resort to pretending that Acts is false. Also if it is fake then why did you use it to prove things against Paul? Obviously if these things never happened then it doesn't Matter what Paul does in these books. And also if it is a fake then it shouldn’t matter what Paul wrote in Galatians because it doesn’t have anything to contradict.


Many prominent scholars think that 2 Peter was a pseudonymity,that is, it was written by somebody other than Peter. (And some think it may have been written by a Pauline sympathizer. One of the reasons for this view is that 2 Peter is written in the style of Paul, and his writing often includes condescending and threatening language to intimidate people.)

"His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other scriptures, to their own destruction."

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

As Pauline doctrine became the major dogma of the Catholic church, such heavy-handedness helped pave the way for centuries of oppression and Inquisitions. It must be noted that Pauline doctrine enforces its will by stressing faith instead of reason and fear of punishment on this earth and in Hell for those who dare to think on their own.

Here are some notes on the authorship of 2 Peter:

http://www.frontline-apologetics.com/2_Peter.htm

The informed skeptic is aware that out of all the epistles accepted into the cannon, none has received as much difficulty as Second Peter. Rejection of Peter as the author of Second Peter is the most common opinion today, and is supported by one of Christianity’s most authoritative conservative biblical scholars, Bruce Metzger, (a scholar that I personally have high regard for). Metzger writes:




"Although the author of this letter calls himself ‘Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ’ (1:1), and makes reference to his being present at the transfiguration of Jesus Christ (1:18), several features of its style and contents have led nearly all modern scholars to regard it as the work of an unknown author of the early second century who wrote in Peter’s name....In light of such internal and external evidence one must conclude that 2 Peter was drawn up sometime after A.D. 100 by an admirer of Peter who wrote under the name of the great apostle in order to give his letter greater authority" (The New Testament, its background, growth, and content, pg. 258).







In scholarly circles, Second Peter is classified as a pseudonymity, a term referring to, as Metzger mentions, an author assuming the name of another and writing supposedly on his behalf. Gary Ferngren, author of Internal Criticism as a Criterion for Authorship in the New Testament, states the situation as to Second Peter accurately:







"...a majority of informed scholars regard 2 Peter as pseudonymous, and this view is taken by many as a proven fact...A strong case can be made for Peter’s authorship of the second epistle attributed to him. Yet such arguments are for the most part ignored in modern discussions and one may be permitted to wonder how many minds are influenced less by the evidence against Petrine authorship than by the fact that the opinio communis of modern scholarship regards the evidence against it as decisive" (Bibliotheca Sacra Vol. 134 #536: 341).


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Contradictions in chronology of Paul's life between the Acts and Galatians.

Acts
(1)Paul converted on the way to Damascus (9:1-8).
(2)He goes to Ananias in Damascus and stays there 'several days' (9:20).
(3)After 'some time'*, Paul goes to Jerusalem (9:23,26) and meets the apostles there (9:27).
(4)Paul preaches in Jerusalem, but due to threats to kill him, he is sent to Tarsus (9:30).
(5)Relief to Jerusalem and Judea taken by Paul & Barnabas (2nd visit) (11:30)
(6)Paul goes to Jerusalem (3rd time) (12:25)
(7)Paul goes to Jerusalem (3rd or 4th time) (15:1ff).

Galatians.
(1)Paul is converted (1:16).
(2)He does not go to Jerusalem, but to Arabia and then Damascus (1:17)
(3)After 3 years, Paul goes to Jerusalem, meeting only Cephas and James there (1:18-19) staying only 15 days.
(4)He then goes to the regions of Syria and Cilicia (1:21).
(5)14 years later, Paul goes to Jerusalem with Barnabas and Titus (2:1).
(6)Paul confronts Cephas at Antioch (2:11).
(7)No further information.
The 'some time' in Acts 9:19 is not clear as to how long this was; different translations render this 'some time passed' (Jerusalem), 'after a number of days' (Moffatt); the literal Greek is "'many' with the view of being sufficient"; however it is rendered, it is difficult to reconcile this with the three years of Gal 1:18.
*It is not clear whether 12:25 is a return to Jerusalem, or a return to Antioch from Jerusalem; if the former, and the Acts 15 visit is the Gal 2:1-10 one, then in Acts it would be the fourth visit, whilst Paul states it was only the second.
Paul's method of counting in Gal. is not absolutely clear, ie. whether his 14 years in Gal 2:1 is 14 years after his starting point in Gal (ie. his conversion) or 14 years after the first Jerusalem visit 3 years after his conversion which he had mentioned immediately beforehand (ie. a total of 17 years after his conversion).
Numerous others problems arise when trying to reconcile the two accounts, e.g. Acts has Paul in Jerusalem and Judea in his early life (21:17 then 22:3) and as a persecutor of the church there (7:58, 9:1-2,13,21, 26:10) which makes Paul's comment that (Gal 1:22) he was not known by sight by the churches in Judea even after his time in Jerusalem, Syria and Cilicia (1:17- 21) appear impossible. Furthermore when Paul has a dispute with Peter at Antioch about Gentile fellowship in Gal 2, why does he not remind him of what was agreed at the Acts 15 conference on this very subject ?





 
WolfgangvonUSA said:

-----------------------
Contradictions in chronology of Paul's life between the Acts and Galatians.

Acts
(1)Paul converted on the way to Damascus (9:1-8).
(2)He goes to Ananias in Damascus and stays there 'several days' (9:20).
(3)After 'some time'*, Paul goes to Jerusalem (9:23,26) and meets the apostles there (9:27).
(4)Paul preaches in Jerusalem, but due to threats to kill him, he is sent to Tarsus (9:30).
(5)Relief to Jerusalem and Judea taken by Paul & Barnabas (2nd visit) (11:30)
(6)Paul goes to Jerusalem (3rd time) (12:25)
(7)Paul goes to Jerusalem (3rd or 4th time) (15:1ff).

Galatians.
(1)Paul is converted (1:16).
(2)He does not go to Jerusalem, but to Arabia and then Damascus (1:17)
(3)After 3 years, Paul goes to Jerusalem, meeting only Cephas and James there (1:18-19) staying only 15 days.
(4)He then goes to the regions of Syria and Cilicia (1:21).
(5)14 years later, Paul goes to Jerusalem with Barnabas and Titus (2:1).
(6)Paul confronts Cephas at Antioch (2:11).
(7)No further information.
The 'some time' in Acts 9:19 is not clear as to how long this was; different translations render this 'some time passed' (Jerusalem), 'after a number of days' (Moffatt); the literal Greek is "'many' with the view of being sufficient"; however it is rendered, it is difficult to reconcile this with the three years of Gal 1:18.
*It is not clear whether 12:25 is a return to Jerusalem, or a return to Antioch from Jerusalem; if the former, and the Acts 15 visit is the Gal 2:1-10 one, then in Acts it would be the fourth visit, whilst Paul states it was only the second.
Paul's method of counting in Gal. is not absolutely clear, ie. whether his 14 years in Gal 2:1 is 14 years after his starting point in Gal (ie. his conversion) or 14 years after the first Jerusalem visit 3 years after his conversion which he had mentioned immediately beforehand (ie. a total of 17 years after his conversion).
Numerous others problems arise when trying to reconcile the two accounts, e.g. Acts has Paul in Jerusalem and Judea in his early life (21:17 then 22:3) and as a persecutor of the church there (7:58, 9:1-2,13,21, 26:10) which makes Paul's comment that (Gal 1:22) he was not known by sight by the churches in Judea even after his time in Jerusalem, Syria and Cilicia (1:17- 21) appear impossible. Furthermore when Paul has a dispute with Peter at Antioch about Gentile fellowship in Gal 2, why does he not remind him of what was agreed at the Acts 15 conference on this very subject ?






Ok let’s start off with showing that Paul says that he received a revelation from God in 1:12 and his conversion in 1:16 also implies that he was given divine authority to be an apostle to the gentiles. Something that is also mention in the revelation he received in Acts. Secondly just because you don't want the "some time” to be the three years doesn't mean it isn’t. Now I will also admit that Paul leaves quite a bit out but this letter was written during Paul's 2nd journey. He lived at least another 10 years after it was written. Also this was a letter written only from the memory of Paul where Acts is story meant to contain much as possible and we know that Luke wrote down everything Paul did meticulously. Maybe Paul's other exploits slipped his mind at the time or maybe he didn't feel it was necessary to write them all in a condensed summery of his life that was only meant to show his authenticity. As for the fight with Peter maybe Paul didn’t think of the council at the time of his writing it. Also because only relative dates are known of these events it is possible that this letter was written anytime form 1 year before the council to 6 years after it so it is possible the council hadn't happened when this argument occurred. What is certain is that the people Paul was rebuking with this letter would have been arguing that the council was invalid so quoting it would have done little more than to waste time, ink, and paper. So I don’t think that these two writings truly contradict each other.







Secondly since when ever I quote a bible passage you seem to invalidate the book (don’t get me wrong I think that you truly didn’t accept the books before I quoted them) let’s look at how many New Testament books are left after using your logic. Let’s start off with all of the New Testament books.



Matthew

Mark

Luke

John

Acts

Romans

1 Corinthians

2 Corinthians

Galatians

Ephesians

Philippians

Colossians

1 Thessalonians

2 Thessalonians

1 Timothy

2 Timothy

Titus

Philemon

Hebrews

James

1 Peter

2 Peter

1 John

2 John

3 John

Jude

Revelation



Now we must remove all the books written by Paul



Matthew

Mark

Luke

John

Acts

James

1 Peter

2 Peter

1 John

2 John

3 John

Jude

Revelation



Now the books by Luke



Matthew

Mark

John

James

1 Peter

2 Peter

1 John

2 John

3 John

Jude

Revelation



Now because the gospel of Luke was based on Matthew and Mark they must have been supported by Paul so out they go:



John

James

1 Peter

2 Peter

1 John

2 John

3 John

Jude

Revelation



Also because as you pointed out the writing styles of 1 & 2 Peter seem to be different so we can’t know which was actually written by Peter so we must loose both of them.



John

James

1 John

2 John

3 John

Jude

Revelation



Also since you seem to accept any biblical theory that suggests that a book wasn’t attributed to its author and those books must be removed because they are fakes. That leaves these:



James

1 John

2 John

3 John

Jude



So this leaves the New Testament at Thirteen short Chapters. This is all we can really go on about the message of Christ because tradition is obviously out the window. Now obviously I don’t believe this but by your standards you had better. And of course I just did this to show how ridiculous this is. However if you don’t accept 2nd peter or Paul’s writings you must only accept these five letters.
 
Abogado del Diablo said:
Exactly. Faith - that's all there is as the basis of literal Christianity. There are no "two or three witnesses" though, which was my point.
I would have to agree sorry for the post I made. May I ask what does literal christianity refer to? (my ignorance is showing:eek: )
 
JJM said:
I would have to agree sorry for the post I made. May I ask what does literal christianity refer to? (my ignorance is showing:eek: )
Early on in the history of the Church it came under fire for being little more than another verion of the "Pagan" mysteries. You can see the Churches response in the earliest "Christian" writings - those of Justin Martyr in his First and Second Apologies. As a result, the early Church had to set it self apart from the dozen or so other, major, mystery religions (many of which were more prevalent and widespread than the "Christian" version). As a result, early Christian apologists seized upon the notion that its version of the "mysteries" was literally, historically true and that the fundamental aspect of Christianity was to have faith that its version of the story was literally, historically true. Justin Martyr dismissed the other versions of the story (many of which pre-date the alleged time of Jesus by centuries) as "diabolic mimicry."

This was the birth of Literal Christianity.
 
JJM said:
just because you don't want the "some time” to be the three years doesn't mean it isn’t.

Now because the gospel of Luke was based on Matthew and Mark they must have been supported by Paul so out they go:


Also because as you pointed out the writing styles of 1 & 2 Peter seem to be different so we can’t know which was actually written by Peter so we must loose both of them.
Also since you seem to accept any biblical theory that suggests that a book wasn’t attributed to its author and those books must be removed because they are fakes. That leaves these:
gg
Gal 1:16To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
Gal 1:17Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

According to Paul's story in Galatians, he did not wait for 'some time' but went immediately to Arabia (Edom).


As to throwing out all those NT books, you are engaging in hyperbole, throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Just because the 'gospel of Luke' was built upon the gospel of Mark does not mean Mark is false, and just because some books were not written by their namesake does not necessarily mean they have no value.

I hope you are also aware that the longer ending of Mark (16:9-20) was added during the 4th century AD, and this therefore tends to discredit the Pauline phenomena of 'speaking in tongues' and drinking poison and handling vipers as a sign of faith.

Finally, please realize that Jesus accomplished his mission without once quoting the words found in Paul's epistles or Luke's Acts. If He could do without Paul or Luke, we can certainly manage without them as well.

By the way, what did Paul say that was so important that you cling to him so much?

Wolfgang
 
On the author of 1 Peter and 2 Peter, this should come as no surprise, but "Peter" the apostle ("Simon Peter") doubtfully wrote either of them.

On 1 Peter:

Despite 1 Pet 1:1, the author is unlikely to have been the apostle Peter. The cultured Greek of the epistle makes it perhaps the most literary composition in the NT. The apostle Peter probably knew some Greek, but 1 Peter does not look like the product of an unlettered (Acts 4:13) Galilean fisherman. It employs a sophisticated vocabulary incorporating several NT hapax legomena, and its author appears to have some command of the techniques of Hellenistic rhetoric. He is also intimately acquainted with the OT in the LXX, whereas we should have expected the Galilean Peter to have been more familiar with an Aramaic Targum or the Hebrew." (The Oxford Bible Commentary, p. 1263)

And as W. G. Kümmel writes in his "Introduction to the New Testament":

I Pet presupposes the Pauline theology. This is true not only in the general sense that the Jewish-Christian readers, the 'people of God' (2:10), are no longer concerned about the problem of the fulfillment of the Law, but also in the special sense that, as in Paul, the death of Jesus has atoned for the sins of Christians and has accomplished justification (1:18 f; 2:24). Christians are to suffer with Christ (4:13; 5:1), obedience to the civil authorities is demanded (2:14 f), and the Pauline formula en xristw is encountered (3:16; 5:10, 14). The frequently advanced proposal that I Pet is literarily dependent on Rom (and Eph) is improbable because the linguistic contacts can be explained on the basis of a common catechetical tradition. But there can be no doubt that the author of I Pet stands in the line of succession of Pauline theology, and that is scarcely conceivable for Peter, who at the time of Gal 2:11 was able in only a very unsure way to follow the Pauline basic principle of freedom from the Law for Gentile Christians.

On 2 Peter, Kümmel offers numerous reasons why it is doubtfully a genuine letter of Simon Peter:

1. The literary dependence on Jude rules this out. II Pet 1 and 3 already have a number of contacts with Jude: cf. II Pet 1:5 with Jude 3; II Pet 1:12 with Jude 5; II Pet 3:2 f with Jude 17 f; II Pet 3:14 with Jude 24; II Pet 3:18 with Jude 25. The most striking agreements with Jude are shown in the portrayal of the false teachers in II Pet 2 and also in the illustrations based on the OT and the pictures drawn from nature, agreements in the exact wording and extensive agreements in sequence. The false teachers deny the Lord Christ and lead a dissolute life (II Pet 2:1 f = Jude 4), they despise and blaspheme the good angelic powers (II Pet 2:10 f = Jude 8 f), they speak in high-handed fashion (uperogka; II Pet 2:18 = Jude 16), they are blotches on the communal meal (spigoi suneuwcwmenoi; II Pet 2:13 = Jude 12), they are clouds tossed about by the wind, devoid of water, for whom the gloom of darkness is reserved (II Pet 2:17 = Jude 12 f), they are denounced for their fleshly corruption and their unrestrained mode of life (II Pet 2:10, 12 ff, 18 = Jude 7 f, 10, 12, 16). The sequence of examples of punishment from the OT in Jude 5 ff (Israel in the desert, fallen angels, Sodom and Gomorrah) is arranged in historical order in II Pet 2:4 ff and modified (fallen angels, Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah) because the author of II Pet needs the example of the Flood to combat the deniers of the parousia. The general statement in II Pet 2:11 makes sense only if note has been made of the concrete example mentioned in Jude 9. The image in Jude 12 f is more genuine and more plastic than the parallel in II Pet 2:17.

This material shows, therefore, that it is II Pet which is the dependent factor. It is further to be observed that the quotation from a noncanonical writing (Jude 14 f = the Apocalypse of Enoch 1:9; 60:8) is lacking in II Pet, and that by omitting certain essential features the allusions to the apocryphal writings have been somewhat obscured in Jude 6 (fallen angels) and 9 (the struggle between the archangel Michael and the Devil). From this it may be concluded that II Pet is already reluctant to use this literature whereas Jude has a naive attitude toward it. II Pet betrays a literary strategem in that the false teachers who are characterized by Jude as being in the present are depicted in II Pet as future and indeed predicted by Peter (2:1 ff, in the future; 3:3, 17 proginwskontes). But in spite of this they are also described in the present tense (2:10, 12 ff, 20), and indeed the past tense is used (2:15, 22). Consequently it is almost universally recognized today that II Pet is dependent on Jude and not the reverse. Then II Pet 3:3 ff portrays the libertines as the deniers of the parousia. In this way he representes a more developed stage, while a less developed stage is evident in Jude, who does not yet know that the false teachers against whom he directs his attention might have denied the parousia. Since Jude belongs in the postapostolic age, Peter cannot have written II Pet.

2.The conceptual world and the rhetorical language are so strongly influenced by Hellenism as to rule out Peter definitely, nor could it have been written by one of his helpers or pupils under instructions from Peter. Not even at some time after the death of the apostle. The Hellenistic concepts include: the areth of God (1:3), virtue in addition to faith (1:5); knowledge (1:2, 3, 6, 8; 2:20; 3:18); participation in the divine nature (qeias koinwnoi fusews) "in order that one might escape corruption that is present in the world because of lust" (1:4); the term epoptai comes from the language of the mysteries (1:16); placed side by side are a quotation from Proverbs and a trite saying from the Hellenistic tradition (2:22).

3. The letter has a keen interest in opposing the denial of the Christians' expectation of the parousia. 1:12 ff already deals with the hope of the parousia, which is based on the fact of the transfiguration of Jesus and the OT prophecy. In 3:3 ff there is a direct polemic against those who deny the parousia. These ask scornfully, "Where is the promise of the parousia of Christ?" and draw attention to the fact that since the fathers have fallen asleep everything remains as it has been from the beginning of creation (3:4). In I Clem 23:3 f and II Clem 11:2 ff too, there is adduced a writing which was obviously read in Christian circles, in which is laid down the challenge "We have already heard that in the days of our fathers, but look, we are become old and nothing of that has happened to us." I Clem was written ca. 95, and II Clem can hardly have been written earlier than 150. We have, therefore, historical evidence from the end of the first century onward for the disdainful skepticism which is expressed in II Pet 3:3 ff. But it is the Gnostics of the second century who have opposed the parousia and reinterpreted it along spiritualistic lines. It is probably also they who are meant by the proclaimers of the "clever myths" (1:16) and of "knowledge" (see point 2). Characteristic of them are the libertinism and the insolent disrespect for spirit powers (see point 1). II Pet is therefore aimed against a movement which bears the essential features of second-century gnosis. A more exact determination is not possible, however.

4. Also indicative of the second century is the appeal to a collection of Pauline letters from which "statements that are hard to understand" have been misinterpreted by the false teachers, and to further normative writings which inlcude not only the OT but also the developing NT (3:16). In view of the difficulty in understanding "scripture," and its ambiguity, II Pet offers the thesis that "no prophetic scripture allows an individual interpretation" because men have spoken under the power of the Holy Spirit (1:20 f). Since not every Christian has the Spirit, the explanation of Scripture is reserved for the ecclesiastical teaching office. Accordingly we find ourselves without doubt far beyond the time of Peter and into the epoch of "early Catholocism."

It is certain, therefore, that II Pet does not originate with Peter, and this is today widely acknowledged. This point of view can be confirmed through two further facts.

5. As in the case of the Pastorals, the pseudonymity in II Pet is carried through consistently by means of heavy stress on the Petrine authorship (see above, p. 430). The auther adduces his authority not only on the basis of the fiction of a "testament of Peter" but also by reference back to I Pet in 3:1 f, intending II Pet only to "recall" (1:12, 15; 3:1 f) what was said in I Pet to the extent that it corresponds to the interpretation which the author of II Pet wants to give to I Pet. This appeal to the apostolic authority of Peter and his letter is obviously occasioned by the sharpening of the Gnostic false teaching which is being combated in Jdue, as a result of a consistent denial of the parousia of the false teachers. In this way, the apostle has become the "guarantor of the tradition" (1:12 f), and as a consequence of the abandonment of the near expectation (3:8) the parousia is stripped of its christological character and functions as an anthropologically oriented doctrine of rewards. In its consistent quality the pseudonymity betrays the late origins of II Pet.

6. In spite of its heavy stress on Petrine authorship, II Pet is nowhwere mentioned in the second century. The apologists, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Cyprian, Clement of Alexandria, and the Muratorian Canon are completely silent about it. Its first attestation is in Origen, but according to him the letter is contested (amfiballetai). Eusebius lists it among the antilegomena. . . Even down to the fourth century II Pet was largely unknown or not recognized as canonical.

 
First I’d like to say this



Gal 1:12

For neither did I receive it of man, nor did I learn it; but by the revelation of Jesus Christ



In Acts 9:1-8 Paul receives a revelation from Christ so would you agree that what he did on the road to Damascus is mentioned in both?





WolfgangvonUSA said:
Gal 1:16To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Gal 1:17Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.



According to Paul's story in Galatians, he did not wait for 'some time' but went immediately to Arabia (Edom).




I’ll give it to you it does appear at first glance that he is saying that he didn’t go to Damascus however if you look carefully it says in Verse 17 “returned again unto Damascus” this implies that Paul went to Arabia from Damascus because if he wasn’t there he couldn’t return. This doesn’t contradict Acts because the trip to Arabia could easily be included in the some time.





WolfgangvonUSA said:
As to throwing out all those NT books, you are engaging in hyperbole, throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Just because the 'gospel of Luke' was built upon the gospel of Mark does not mean Mark is false, and just because some books were not written by their namesake does not necessarily mean they have no value.




Now I realize I'm "throwing out the baby with the bathwater" as you say but you seem to throw out anything with a connection to Paul so I simply was as well. Although you say that it isn't important if it was written by its name sake it only seems to apply to you when that person doesn't support Paul. May I ask you if I shoot down all of your alleged contradictions will you ever accept Acts as truth? Because if you do then Paul has his two witnesses and thus can be considered valid. It’s just a question because it seems to me that even if you can’t show any contradictions you still won’t believe that Acts is valid because you don’t want to.

WolfgangvonUSA said:
I hope you are also aware that the longer ending of Mark (16:9-20) was added during the 4th century AD, and this therefore tends to discredit the Pauline phenomena of 'speaking in tongues' and drinking poison and handling vipers as a sign of faith.





Actually Paul didn’t hold snakes as a sign of faith that is a new development nor did he just drink poison. Now the Tongues thing is (disregarding the part in Mark of course) only found in the writings of Luke and Paul but this doesn’t discredit it. It simply shows that in the fourth century Paul was considered an early leader. If anything it accredits him.



WolfgangvonUSA said:
Finally, please realize that Jesus accomplished his mission without once quoting the words found in Paul's epistles or Luke's Acts. If He could do without Paul or Luke, we can certainly manage without them as well.



Actually Jesus didn’t accomplish his initial mission. If you ready Matthew 21:33-46 you see that Jesus was originally supposed to cause the Jewish People to repent. Because the Householder in the parable is God. The Husbandmen are the Jews. The servants are the Prophets and obviously the son of the householder is Jesus. So Jesus came to make the Jewish people bare fruit. Thus he didn’t accomplish it. However if you are referring to Jesus’ Mission of dieing on the cross he only needed to quote enough to anger the Pharisees this wouldn’t require much. Also by this logic we might as well say if Moses could do well with out Ezekiel then we don’t need that book. This is what the Samaritan’s problem was. Unfortunately for both arguments one was written after the other lived. The writings of Paul and Luke give us an insight into the early church and the life of Christ. They don’t contradict anything in the gospels and they don’t add much if anything.



WolfgangvonUSA said:
By the way, what did Paul say that was so important that you cling to him so much?



Wolfgang


Well Jesus used Paul to spread Christianity more than most other men of his time. He also wrote some of the oldest Christian writing left in the world. Which is what he did that causes me to cling to him. What else did he do? His works converted St. Augustine and thousands more that is another reason why I cling to him. Since Paul has traditionally been considered an early father and to have inspired works I think the more important question is why you do want to get rid of him? You claim that he was a liar who corrupted Christianity but your only evidence is misunderstood quotes that are completely out of context. SO really you have no reason to believe this other than you want to. Now I realize that the meanings of Paul’s writings have been corrupted over the past few hundred years but that doesn’t mean you throw out Paul. It means you throw out the misinterpretations. Likewise if I said that Plato’s quoting of Socrates claimed that Socrates didn’t think that you where a good person unless you where executed what would you do? Would you throw away Plato or my interpretation? I hope you respond the later. In the same way if the reformers miss interpreted Paul you don’t throw out Paul you throw out the interpretations.
 
JJM said:
First I’d like to say this



Gal 1:12

For neither did I receive it of man, nor did I learn it; but by the revelation of Jesus Christ



In Acts 9:1-8 Paul receives a revelation from Christ so would you agree that what he did on the road to Damascus is mentioned in both?


Paul is merely claiming that Jesus spoke to him, but he is not proving it by producing witnesses. Paul was an admitted murderer and a Pharisee. Why would anybody trust the word of anybody with such credentials?

People in mental hospitals also claim to have visons. Do you believe them too?









JJM said:
I’ll give it to you it does appear at first glance that he is saying that he didn’t go to Damascus however if you look carefully it says in Verse 17 “returned again unto Damascus” this implies that Paul went to Arabia from Damascus because if he wasn’t there he couldn’t return. This doesn’t contradict Acts because the trip to
JJM said:
Arabia could easily be included in the some time.


I never said that he didn't originally go to Damascus. I said that Luke has him going first to Jerusalem (from Damascus) whereas in Galatians he claims to depart Damascus to go first to Arabia (probably to Edom), not to Jerusalem!









JJM said:
Now I realize I'm "throwing out the baby with the bathwater" as you say but you seem to throw out anything with a connection to Paul so I simply was as well. Although you say that it isn't important if it was written by its name sake it only seems to apply to you when that person doesn't support Paul. May I ask you if I shoot down all of your alleged contradictions will you ever accept Acts as truth? Because if you do then Paul has his two witnesses and thus can be considered valid. It’s just a question because it seems to me that even if you can’t show any contradictions you still won’t believe that Acts is valid because you don’t want to.both?

Acts contradicts itself and Acts contradicts Galatians. Both cannot be true if they contradict the other.





JJM said:
Actually Paul didn’t hold snakes as a sign of faith that is a new development nor did he just drink poison. Now the Tongues thing is (disregarding the part in Mark of course) only found in the writings of Luke and Paul but this doesn’t discredit it. It simply shows that in the fourth century Paul was considered an early leader. If anything it accredits him.both?

It just shows that in the 4th century Pauline operatives were attempting to spin the bible to serve their own agenda. The longer ending of Mark is contained in double brackets and is therefore not considered to be a part of the original text, and it is therefore a forgery.





JJM said:
Actually Jesus didn’t accomplish his initial mission. If you ready Matthew
JJM said:
21:33-46 you see that Jesus was originally supposed to cause the Jewish People to repent. Because the Householder in the parable is God. The Husbandmen are the Jews. The servants are the Prophets and obviously the son of the householder is Jesus. So Jesus came to make the Jewish people bare fruit. Thus he didn’t accomplish it. However if you are referring to Jesus’ Mission of dieing on the cross he only needed to quote enough to anger the Pharisees this wouldn’t require much. Also by this logic we might as well say if Moses could do well with out Ezekiel then we don’t need that book. This is what the Samaritan’s problem was. Unfortunately for both arguments one was written after the other lived. The writings of Paul and Luke give us an insight into the early church and the life of Christ. They don’t contradict anything in the gospels and they don’t add much if anything.both?


Jesus came to save what was lost.
What had been lost? Israel.
That's why He told the apostles to go only to the lost tribes of Israel and to ignore the Samaritans and the Gentiles.
The "Jews" who rejected and killed him in Jerusalem were largely Herodian Idumeans or Edomites, sons of Esau rather than Jacob or Judah. They were not real "Jews" as a real "Jews" are properly defined as sons of Judah. "Judahites" is the most accurate term to refer to them. "Judeans" on the other hand could be just any ethnic group that happened to live in Judea, and Judeans at this point in history included Greeks and Idumeans and many others who were not Judahites or Israelites.




JJM said:
Well Jesus used Paul to spread Christianity more than most other men of his time. He also wrote some of the oldest Christian writing left in the world. Which is what he did that causes me to cling to him. What else did he do? His works converted
JJM said:
St. Augustine and thousands more that is another reason why I cling to him. Since Paul has traditionally been considered an early father and to have inspired works I think the more important question is why you do want to get rid of him? You claim that he was a liar who corrupted Christianity but your only evidence is misunderstood quotes that are completely out of context. SO really you have no reason to believe this other than you want to. Now I realize that the meanings of Paul’s writings have been corrupted over the past few hundred years but that doesn’t mean you throw out Paul. It means you throw out the misinterpretations. Likewise if I said that Plato’s quoting of Socrates claimed that Socrates didn’t think that you where a good person unless you where executed what would you do? Would you throw away Plato or my interpretation? I hope you respond the later. In the same way if the reformers miss interpreted Paul you don’t throw out Paul you throw out the interpretations.
There is no evidence to support Paul's claim of apostleship and many scholars such as Victor provide abundant evidence to show Paul's doctrine is fundamentally different from the Word of Jesus.

Sorry if I haven't had time to reply to all of your posts. I am active in other endeavors elesewhere. I suggest you take the time to read Victor's "Pauline Conspiracy" which is posted in the articles section of this forum.

Happy Thanksgiving!

Wolfgang
 
I have to admit with all the mistranslations, interference and tampering of the bible, I feel much happier with all the gospels that were chosen not to go into the bible, e.g. Gospel of Thomas, Mary Magdalene, Gospel of Philip etc and the Essene Gospels. I agree with most biblical scholars that historical fact is seriously lacking, and always suspicious of anything that that has been written after the fact, especially when it is many year's later.

I found it quite enlightening viewing the letters of St Jerome and his sense of humour appealed to me too!

I feel it is time for a global campaign for the Vatican to open up the vaults to the scholars and all the truth be known.

Was also guided that there are more scrolls to be found when we are ready.


Jesus said "Do not put the Lord your God to the test"

nor any of his children.

But the 3 witnesses, is interesting from a spiritualist perspective because mediums are asked to get the message three times before acting upon it. This is to provide proof that the information is coming from the right source. Due to the fact that only 10% of mediums physically see spirit. Now doubtful that the prophets of the bible were so discerning!!!!in their innocence.



Sacredstar
 
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