On 'agenda'

Thomas

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Recent discussions of 'agendas' prompted me to look into the etymology of the word.

Really interesting!

1650s, from Latin agenda, literally "things to be done," neuter plural of agendus, gerundive of agere "to do" (see act (n.)). Originally theological (opposed to matters of belief), sense of "items of business to be done at a meeting" first attested 1882. "If a singular is required (=one item of the agenda) it is now agendum, the former singular agend being obsolete" (here) (My emphasis).

In the traditional sense then, Aquinas follows Aristotle in arguing that 'being' (esse – the 'is-ness' of the thing that is) is known and understood by its 'act'; that is, a thing is known and understood by what it is (it's esse), a 'static' understanding – this is a fish, that is a bird – and simultaneously dynamically, by 'how' it is, fishes swim in the sea, birds fly in the air ...

We first apprehend the concrete act-uality of something – a flying thing, a swimming thing, or even a thing that swims and flies! – and then contemplate its is-ness – what is it to be a fish, a bird, a human, etc.

The contemporary understanding of agenda broadens:
hidden agenda (plural hidden agendas)
A wish (and plan) to implement a particular idea without telling anybody even though people will be affected in a negative way. (ibid)
This is what people commonly assume when the term is used in the critical evaluation of a text, etc.

In a proper scholarly thesis, the favoured methodology is the dialectical method, which today follows the pattern of thesis-antithesis-synthesis, that is the scholar proposes his or her thesis, then the objections to that thesis (if there are none, then it's a statement of the obvious), then argues the case by reason and logic to arrive at a conclusion, in which the antithesis is refuted or reconciled to the thesis.

Scholarly discussions, and books, tend to be dry, technical affairs, unless the point under discussion happens to be your 'thing'. Thy tend not to sell in any significant numbers – a notable exception being Hawkings' 'A Brief History of Time' which, apparently, is a book which 'everyone' owns, but few have read!

The issue with 'hidden agendas' results from the ancient arts of rhetoric and sophistry, which assumes to speak 'cleverly' and 'emotively' to win an audience to one's point of view is more important than whether that point of view is actually true or correct. Plato had a very low opinion of both. Aristotle was more allowing.

Best sellers, especially in theology, tend towards the latter, employing a more colourful and emotive language and, sadly, a tendency to assert a thesis without paying proper regard to the counter argument. Colour and emotion will always trump technical rigour in the wider marketplace, and people tend to buy the books by authors who endorse their viewpoint, rather than those that subject them to critical scrutiny.

Peer review is the best method we have for a balanced critique of any thesis, in my own experience I was directed to read the critics of my favourite theologians, as well as more of my favourite theologians. By that process one can come to an informed ground.

A classic case is Richard Dawkins.

In "The Blind Watchmaker, he puts forward the thesis of God-as-watchmaker, that God being at the apex of creation, and its creator, must necessarily be more complex than the complexity of living organisms, and then knocks the argument down.

He never deals with the contrary argument that God is not a thing as other things are, and that throughout history God has always been presented as 'One', and 'Simple' and 'Uncompounded'.

So he sets up a false thesis, knocks it down, and everyone applauds him because they never knew that he was thinking about God the wrong way from the very outset. The God Delusion is just more of the same. The only delusion being what Dawkins thinks theists think.

Dawkins' book is quite a doorstop. The response from a Dominican theologian was a little booklet that showed where Dawkins was making an erroneous assumption about the Christian idea of God.

A most telling move on his part was to tour America, promoting The God Delusion, by engaging with born-again evangelical Christians and making them look stupid. As one critic noted, 'it was like shooting fish in a barrel', basically punching someone well below his weight. It's notable he didn't seek out his his intellectual equal.

When he did, he usually came off badly. He launched into one Anglican priest in a discussion on the BBC, ridiculing Christians who declared a Biblical faith but could not name the first five books of the Bible.

His opponent responded by asking Dawkins the full book title (not the chapter titles) of his own 'bible', Charles Darwin's book on evolution ... Dawkins couldn't remember ... hoist on his own petard, as the saying goes.

I don't think Dawkins deliberately sets out to deceive. Nor do I doubt his faith in what he believes. It's just he's quite wrong, and inexcusably so, in telling others what we believe.

As one critic said, 'He's a brilliant biologist, but a terrible philosopher.'
 
Agenda....when I say everyone has an agenda it isn't negative...

One agenda is to correct misinformation...

Another agenda is to dispense information...

The patriots in the US had an agenda...to get out from under the tryanny of the King... of course the Tories thought their agenda was that of terrorists and rebels....

I guess folks take the word to mean differently depending on which side of the coin you are on...
 
I guess folks take the word to mean differently depending on which side of the coin you are on...
Not to drag the point out, but your "nothin new here" comment makes light of the fact someone is falsifying data in a supposedly 'scholarly' text.

It might not be new, but it's certainly a cynical response.
 
I think you two are putting way to much focus on the word and too little on what they are trying to say.
 
Thomas said:
"Best sellers, especially in theology, tend towards the latter, employing a more colourful and emotive language and, sadly, a tendency to assert a thesis without paying proper regard to the counter argument. Colour and emotion will always trump technical rigour in the wider marketplace, and people tend to buy the books by authors who endorse their viewpoint, rather than those that subject them to critical scrutiny."

So true. And not especially in theology; rather in many areas of modern human endeavors. Politics is another. Science and history in our public schools an even worse example.

In truth it is difficult to find books today that are not very one sided. This is no accident to my way of thinking. Most people seem to want to be told that what they want to believe is correct. So they buy the books that accommodate their belief structure.

If one has an interest in a genuinely balanced viewpoint, it is very difficult to find such a critter any more. The Richard Dawkins of the world on any side of an issue feed the people what it is they want.
 
Nuance might be lost on the mob, but I think there are enough people out there that look critically at all sides for there to be a market in all fields of study.
 
I seem to side with Thomas most of the time, but there's quite a bit of wil in me as well...in a purely heterosexual way, of course...
 
realist... every single....EVERY SINGLE...newspaper article where I had first hand knowledge of...where I was interviewed....had significant facts wrong...

EVERY SINGLE one....the question is why do I ever repeat what I read in the newspaper since I have NO EVIDENCE that they get any article right?
 
realist... every single....EVERY SINGLE...newspaper article where I had first hand knowledge of...where I was interviewed....had significant facts wrong...
Hang on ... I am bemused ... I find it's me who's walking the liberal line here, and you who's taking a rather absolutist-fundamentalist stance? Has something happened, have we been zapped by some agenda-switching cosmic ray? :D

From the above then, are we too assume, absolutely and in every case, that what we read/see/hear is significantly wrong?

Might I point out that Scripture is not the same as The Daily Bugle?

But OK, let's take your thesis and run with it.

Point 1: (taking past discussions into account):
1: Every book of the New Testament has significant facts wrong.
2: Every author of the New Testament was getting 'carried away' into myth-making (at best) or promoting a self-serving agenda (at worst).
3: None of it is reliable, factual, or believable.

Question 1:
Then why do you believe it?

///

Point 2:
When it comes to commentaries, exegesis, etc., then the situation is even worse. Authors distort, conceal or downright lie in pursuit of their own agendas. So much so it's not even worth discussing.

Question 2:
Then how can you reasonably dismiss my 'favourite theologians', on the basis of what your 'favourite theologians' say?

///

Point 3:
If everyone is as you claim ...

Question 3:
Why should anyone accept your opinion on anything, when every evidence you claim in its support you have a priori declared most probably wrong?

EVERY SINGLE one....the question is why do I ever repeat what I read in the newspaper since I have NO EVIDENCE that they get any article right?
The real question is, my friend, why do you ever repeat (as the foundation of your belief) what you read in the Bible since you have NO EVIDENCE that they (the authors of Scripture) got any of it right?

D'you see?

I know Scripture isn't inerrant. I know the sacred scribe is fallible. I know the exegete will write in support of his position. I know we're all human.

But I keep an open mind. I accept the possibility that miracles might have happened, that the cosmos is not confined to what I think is credible. That there is more to 'what is' than the empirically demonstrable.

I just can't bring myself to see things the way you do, I find it rather extreme, all rather cynical and pessimistic. I can't see how you can have any faith in anything when you hold such views?

And I can't accept that we might as well make up a story to suit ourselves, because that's what everyone else does.

Perhaps I'm an optimist. I thought you were our Dr Pangloss, now I'm not so sure it isn't me? :eek:
 
I reject the notion that having an agenda is bad. It is just a fact.

I also reject the notion that mythology is bad.

If Jesus, Moses, and Abraham never existed.... If Mary and Joseph, Noah, and Jonah never existed... (just as Adam and Eve and that story never happened) NONE of this affects my using the stories contained about them to use their trials and tribulations their miracles and joys in my daily life of miracles and joys...

No evidence that they got it right....who cares? I don't...pulling the rug of 'reality' out from under fantastically valuable metaphor, mythology and parables doesn't negatively effect them in any way.

In my perspective! My posts are my thoughts and comments, if they don't fit your paradigm no skin off my nose. If I get new information in the future which changes my thoughts, comments and opinions in the future... I change them...just like the rest of us.
 
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