Christian Non-Duality

Thomas

Thomas

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"... That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us ... that they may be one, as we also are one: I in them, and thou in me; that they may be made perfect in one ... Father, I will that where I am, they also whom thou hast given me may be with me; that they may see my glory which thou hast given me, because thou hast loved me before the creation of the world..." (John 17:11, 21-24)

"So we being many, are one body in Christ... " Romans 12:5

In the light of texts such as the above, I find it hard to see how Christianity is not seen as a doctrine of Non-Duality?

The metaphysical foundation of the above is contained in the magnificent hymn of Colossians:
"... Who is the image of the invisible God,
the firstborn of every creature:
For in him were all things created in heaven and on earth,
visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominations,
or principalities, or powers:
all things were created by him and in him.
And he is before all, and by him all things consist... "
(Colossians 1:15-17)
 
Thomas said:
In the light of texts such as the above, I find it hard to see how Christianity is not seen as a doctrine of Non-Duality?
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Good point and I tend to agree, but consider also Matthew 5: 43-45

43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

This to me suggests that, duality and non-duality may co-exist to some extent... Thoughts?
 
hmmm wouldn't that agree with non duality? Is it not an explanation of what we perceive to be real (enemies, evil, getting cursed, getting used) is all good...
 
Hi Namaste
Namaste Jesus said:
This to me suggests that, duality and non-duality may co-exist to some extent... Thoughts?
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I think it's a matter of 'depth of insight'? It's the difference between distinction: There is God and there is man, the two are not the same, but all is one...

That is, the thinker will see God as One, creation as theophany, etc., etc,. observing the distinctions without confusion, whereas the 'simple' mind sees thinks in dualist terms — God-man, good-evil, body-soul, and so on. So pastorally the teaching tends to the simple, this and that.

St Paul, for example, can be read to see the world in black-and-white terms, but then says something absolutely exalted – we're all 'one bread, one body' (1 Corinthians 10:17), for example.

If you get into theological niceties in Paul, there's the distinction between the two Greek terms for body: sarx (flesh) and soma (the whole person), both of which can be translated as 'body' but mean quite different things.

On that note, I am always in awe of St Augustine's lecture to the catechumens before their reception into the Church at Easter. When speaking of the Eucharist he says:
"What is seen is the physical representation; what is understood is the spiritual fruit. Therefore, if you want to understand the body of Christ, listen to the Apostle (Paul) speaking to the faithful: You are the body of Christ, and its members (1 Cor. 12:27) … When you hear “The body of Christ”, you answer, “Amen”. Be a member of the body of Christ, so that your “Amen” may be true! What then is the bread? We assert nothing here of our own ideas; rather, let us listen closely to the Apostle, who, when he spoke concerning this Sacrament, said, There is one bread; we, the many, are one body (1 Cor. 10:17) … “One bread” – what is this one bread? It is one body formed of many. Remember that bread is not made from a single grain, but from many. When you were purified, you were ground. When you were baptised, you became dough. When you received the fire of the Holy Spirit, you were baked. Become what you see, and receive what you are.” (Sermon 272)
 
wil said:
hmmm wouldn't that agree with non duality?
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Ultimately, yes. I think it does.
Thomas said:
That is, the thinker will see God as One, creation as theophany, etc., etc,. observing the distinctions without confusion, whereas the 'simple' mind sees thinks in dualist terms — God-man, good-evil, body-soul, and so on. So pastorally the teaching tends to the simple, this and that.
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Yes, I think that is the crux. That's actually what I meant by co-existing -to some extent. I tend to make the distinction in terms of spiritual vs carnal.
Thomas said:
St Paul, for example, can be read to see the world in black-and-white terms, but then says something absolutely exalted – we're all 'one bread, one body' (1 Corinthians 10:17), for example.
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Indeed. I won't quote here as this is the Christianity section, but that's not unlike thoughts expressed in the Bhagavad Gita.
Thomas said:
When you were purified, you were ground. When you were baptised, you became dough. When you received the fire of the Holy Spirit, you were baked. Become what you see, and receive what you are.” (Sermon 272)
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Powerful stuff. I like that. Of course the term "Baked" conjures an entirely different image to those of us that came of age this side of the pond in the 70's.:cool:
 
Ha! Same here ... :eek: OMG, you mean it doesn't mean that?
 
Thomas said:
metaphysical foundation
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The pathos of (the) Persona.

The logos of Christ was the pathos of his Persona that, along with the metaphysical mysteries of His ascension, captures the heart.

Conversely, Buddha's advent was to deny the Vedic version of "sacrifice to Gods" thus his association with asceticism.

Can we now consider the pathos of other scriptural principals?
 
Thomas said:
If you could expand on the idea of pathos?
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I looked it up ... and I thought that maybe I meant something along the lines of "empathy" etc ... then later, I looked up "ethos" and got this:

Ethos is an appeal to ethics, and it is a means of convincing someone of the character or credibility of the persuader.
Pathos is an appeal to emotion, and is a way of convincing an audience of an argument by creating an emotional response.
Logos is an appeal to logic, and is a way of persuading an audience by reason.

https://www.google.com/search?q=eth...5.69i57j0l5.9286j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
 
Namaste Jesus said:
Good point and I tend to agree, but consider also Matthew 5: 43-45

43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

This to me suggests that, duality and non-duality may co-exist to some extent... Thoughts?
Click to expand...
duality doesnt exist,non-duality doesnt exist either, it just points to the way things are.
 
Thats just it,thought creates duality,so what is there when there is no thinking?
 
Bhagwan said:
Thats just it,thought creates duality,so what is there when there is no thinking?
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Ok, if thinking creates duality than logic dictates the opposite be true of non-thinking - non-duality. Is there ever no thinking, though? I mean the very idea you expressed above took some thought. Right?
 
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Jumping in a little late but I thought it was worth a try. I'm not trying to convince anyone to believe what I believe, I have plenty of doubt lately, I just thought I would post some thoughts on the passages quoted.

Thomas said:
"... That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us ... that they may be one, as we also are one: I in them, and thou in me; that they may be made perfect in one ... Father, I will that where I am, they also whom thou hast given me may be with me; that they may see my glory which thou hast given me, because thou hast loved me before the creation of the world..." (John 17:11, 21-24)
Click to expand...

If we back it up we can see that Jesus is not praying for the world but only for believers to be one (v.9) and that Christians are kept from falling away from the Christian faith (v.12). Jesus also reveals that one was lost on purpose or with a purpose and that was to fulfil scripture. Jesus is praying that his people, believers or Christians continue in his teachings (v.15-20) in the world and use them when dealing with the world. (kosmos has seven different meanings depending on the context) The world in the New Testament often meant those who are outside of the faith group. Jews referred to the 'world' in reference to gentiles. Jesus uses the 'world' in reference to unbelievers or non Christians. Jesus is praying that his people interact with the world with one mind. In unity.

"So we being many, are one body in Christ... " Romans 12:5
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Paul lays the foundation for this quote in Romans 8:

12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons[f] of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.​

Jesus mentions this teaching throughout the Gospels and Paul confirms this in his Epistles. When a person comes to faith it is through regeneration or being 'born again.' At this point we are given the Holy Spirit and united to Christ and one another by faith. In Romans 12 we find the teaching often called theosis in Eastern Orthodoxy, where we are to 'offer our bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God...' and to do so as one body or group of believers. This is a grace given process of God working in us to make us more like Him.

Quote:

Romans 12:1–2: We are to present our bodies as a “living sacrifice,” doing so as part of our spiritual worship. And we are to “be transformed” by the renewing of our minds into the likeness of God.

1 Corinthians 3:16; 6:17: We are reminded that we are God’s “temple” and that “he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him”—union with God.

Galatians 2:20: “It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me.”

Philippians 1:21: “For me, to live is Christ.”

Colossians 3:3: We have “died” and our lives are “hidden with Christ in God”—total participation in Christ.

1 Thessalonians 5:23: May God “sanctify you completely”—complete conformity to the image and likeness of God.

2 Thessalonians 2:14: We were called by God “for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

1 John 4:17: “Because as He is, so are we in this world”—the possibility of deification, total participation in Christ this side of eternity.

John 17:22: In His high priestly prayer, Jesus says that He has given us the glory that the Father gave Him.

Revelation 21:7: At the beginning of the eschaton, Christ says of each of us, “I will be his God and he shall be My son.”

1 John 3:2: “We know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.”

Philippians 3:21: Christ will “transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body.”

Source

The metaphysical foundation of the above is contained in the magnificent hymn of Colossians:
"... Who is the image of the invisible God,
the firstborn of every creature:
For in him were all things created in heaven and on earth,
visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominations,
or principalities, or powers:
all things were created by him and in him.
And he is before all, and by him all things consist... "
(Colossians 1:15-17)
Click to expand...

The passage cited above is explaining the preeminence of Jesus Christ who is, 'the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.' (v.15) If we continue on, we can see the theme of Christ being God and how we are now united with him in his death and resurrection resulting in salvation from sin.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. 21 And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation[g] under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.​

Paul continues to explain and then wraps up with,

2.6 Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7 rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving. 8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits[a] of the world, and not according to Christ.
​
Christians are rooted in Christ, tethered to him by the Spirit and we are to walk in unity with him and believers.

- Aetius
 
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