Help with religion??

[LOTR1993]

Greetings-

I am new to this forum and I am trying to understand what religion I am, if any.

I am 24, and spent the last decade as a conservative follower of Christ (Christian). I dedicated every word, action, thought, job, activity, etc. to serving God. Over the last 4-5 months, many things have happened and I have decided that I don't necessarily agree with what the Bible says and am unsure if I believe in the Bible's "God". But now I am trying to figure out WHAT I believe in. Here is what I know about what I DO believe:

-I believe that a person should live selflessly, I believe in caring for and giving to others, and I believe in always being kind, gentle, patient, and loving towards others (unless they are attacking you or something along those lines).

-I believe that it is good an appropriate to take time for yourself, to do things to take care of yourself and to do things that you like to do that brings you happiness.

-I believe that if someone does something wrong to you, speaking out and standing up for yourself is important and necessary.

-I FIRMLY believe in honesty, integrity, and loyalty.

-I don't believe that masturbation is wrong, or even that sex before marriage is necessarily wrong (though I am a virgin myself). I do believe that sleeping around is wrong, but I think sex is okay within the context of a committed, long term relationship.

-I believe that ALL forms of abuse are WRONG and abusers should be held accountable by the law.

- **I am unsure if I believe in a God or not, but my GUT is telling me that there IS a higher power out there. I just am really unsure WHO him/her/they are.

-I think I believe in souls, but I'm not super sure.

-I am not against gays/lesbians/bisexuals or think that they are wrong for liking the same sex or more than one sex. I don't identify as one myself though.

-I believe that feeling confident in your own skin is important.

-I believe that all religions should respect each other.

-I believe that keeping yourself "covered" in public is the right thing, however I don't believe that leggings, short skirts (within reason), or a little cleavage (also within reason) is wrong.

-I am against animal abuse, but I also don't think it's wrong to eat meat.

-I believe that communication is important and necessary in all relationships.

-I believe that "taboo" topics (sex, drugs, abuse, masturbation, alcohol, bullying etc.) should be discussed publicly and privately in a positive way, so that teens and young adults don't feel insecure, uninformed, embarrassed, "wrong", confused, etc. about something they may have seen or experienced. When I say in a positive way, I don't mean encourage drugs or drinking. I mean don't shame someone who has messed up, for example, and always keep young people informed about those things. Also, talking about sex should be a positive and open thing, as many people feel insecure and "wrong" about it when it is really a natural thing. Those are just examples.

-I DON'T believe that if you do good, you will get good back, and visa versa. I have spent my life ONLY doing good, often at my own expense, and have experienced an immeasurable amount of verbal/physical abuse, sickness/diseases, and suffering from my birth until this very moment - despite a life dedicated to OTHERS. And my abusers (my parents) are living a high and rich life, get everything they want, are NOT suffering with illnesses/diseases, and are extremely happy. (I'd like to mention that I have never been drunk, done drugs, broke a law, etc. I have always strived to be my best self and serve others with my life).

-I believe that the obvious things are wrong and should be punished by the law, (you know, what most people believe are wrong): murder, theft, abuse of any kind, scams, fraud, etc.

-I don't know what I believe about praying or the afterlife at this point. Like I said, I have a gut feeling that there IS some kind of higher power... I just don't really know right now. I spent a decade under the thumbs of conservative, strict, Christians, strongly and faithfully believing in what I was doing and passionately living for the Christ that I believe in. But I just believe in the Bible anymore. Too many things do not add up for me.

ANY HELP WOULD BE APPRECIATED!!!!

 

[wil]

Namaste and Welcome my brother!

I won't say you've come to the right place for answers, (that should come from within) but you have come to a great place for discussion.

You may be interested to start here..at BeliefNet and see what the test comes up with....it will take your answers and say (for example) your agree with 80% of this belief 20% of this, 65% of that etc.

Sounds to me your time in church has made you a solid citizen of this planet, a decent caring person, and caused you to disagree with some of the dogmatic tenets... I see that as not uncommon.

All in all, welcome to the fray. This being a time leading upto Easter...my preacher just recently did a talk sort about Paul's "I die daily" and the resurrection and his exploration. As we are not alone in some of the bible issues... you might find some solace in this during this season.

We've also a devout Catholic here, who is very good at Biblical Criticism and understanding of tough portions of scripture...as well as one versed in utilizing more than one belief system to satisfy his understanding... I am sure you'll find ample info to chew on... I wish you well on your journey and look forward to seeing your comments and thoughts as you travel thru.

 

[Bhaktajan II]

Sounds to me your time in church has made you a solid citizen of this planet, a decent caring person

As wil said.

IMHO, you probably are finding that you are an atheist for all practical purposes.

Let me explain, many Buddhist are faithful and good citizens and they're atheists ---it's in their scriptures.

If I correspond with a bot and dutifully believe all the bot says ---I am not corresponding with a person.

So it is that one detail that makes me look like a guy corresponding with a non-existent person.

If I said I have a girl friend ---and I say I have never met her and she doesn't know I exist ---I would not really have a girl friend.

A real person must be sought ---if the real person is not sought, then how can I say I am seeking a person.

If God is a Person ---His person is real, His name and likeness and characteristics and pastimes are existing somewhere.

It is arrogant that you need not search for His personage as it is ---esp whilst you know You are a person--- so God is His own Person.

It is an explicit absolute personage. If we don't seek God in His own absolute personage ---then we seeks all sorts of other 'self-serving' things.

Is God not his own explicit absolute personage?

 

[wil]

To clarify... I just took that Belief-o-matic test again... most aligning with Liberal Quaker, according to the test...(despite my home church being New Thought/Unity and identifying as a nontheistic panentheist unitic)... I'm pretty much thou decidedly agnostic...which to me means "I don't know, what I don't know" in regards to deities and the hereafter (heaven/hell/rebirth etc)

 

[wil]

I'd also like to put out there that two pretty prolific authors have gone through your exact struggles... Bart D Ehrman who lost is faith during the process felt the rug pulled out from under him when he uncovered his disbelief in what he was taught as fact in his youth.... and Bishop John Shelby Spong who discovered his faith even more after similar situations...two men (two of many) two completely differing results.

 

[Namaste Jesus]

Hi, LOTR1993. Religion can be overwhelming at times to say the least. Takes a while to soak it all in and put everything into perspective. I wouldn't worry though. Seems like you have a good head on your shoulders and are headed in the right direction. My late father-in-law once told me.

"Faith in God lie not in the words of man, but is born unto you and is contained in your heart."​

Many's the time those words from that simple farmer have brought me solace.

 

[LOTR1993]

Namaste and Welcome my brother!

I won't say you've come to the right place for answers, (that should come from within) but you have come to a great place for discussion.

You may be interested to start here..at BeliefNet and see what the test comes up with....it will take your answers and say (for example) your agree with 80% of this belief 20% of this, 65% of that etc.

Sounds to me your time in church has made you a solid citizen of this planet, a decent caring person, and caused you to disagree with some of the dogmatic tenets... I see that as not uncommon.

All in all, welcome to the fray. This being a time leading upto Easter...my preacher just recently did a talk sort about Paul's "I die daily" and the resurrection and his exploration. As we are not alone in some of the bible issues... you might find some solace in this during this season.

We've also a devout Catholic here, who is very good at Biblical Criticism and understanding of tough portions of scripture...as well as one versed in utilizing more than one belief system to satisfy his understanding... I am sure you'll find ample info to chew on... I wish you well on your journey and look forward to seeing your comments and thoughts as you travel thru.

Wil-

Thank you so much for your detailed responses. They were very helpful to me.
I went to the link you posted and to the beliefs quiz. I got a 99% match for "Unitarian Universalism." I had heard the term before, but knew absolutely nothing about what it was. So I looked at a few Universalist churches websites, where their beliefs are listed and stuff. I am of course still in my spiritual search, but I found that I agreed with almost all of these churches beliefs and claims. While I am not yet sure of my beliefs, I think that looking inside of my heart and my core beliefs and maybe branching out and experiencing spirituality through different groups that just the conservative Christian church may be a great step for me. From ages 14-24 I have lived a conservative life, stayed among conservative Christian people, and have never experienced spirituality outside of the context of a conservative church and my private time with the God of the Bible, which included reading the Bible and praying. I just feel like there is so much more to spirituality than that. I also feel that not everything in the Bible is true. So maybe this has been a good step for me, cause as I branch out and experience new religions, I have the belief-o-matic results to guide me in the direction of where I should start. Thanks!

Also, I am a sister, not a brother. . I went to a private Christian school with a major in Biblical Studies, (so I literally have a LIBRARY of Bibles, commentaries, and other resources), and conservatism is all I have ever known. Its time for some new enlightening experiences!

 

[wil]

oops...sorry sister! won't hold that against you! (total joke no disrespect in any way shape or form) UU is second on my list from Beliefomatic this time around...just the questions and their importance ranking makes you contemplate... I came out liberal quaker and also just took a look around to visit other churches...as the distance I am from my home church makes me want to be in a community more local...but the availablilty of sermons on line helps me stay connected.

Don't be surprised if years or decades after your journey begins you end up back where you were...not saying this WILL happen, but over my 60 years I have watched it happen to many..and almost all feel a benefit in their exploration..and don't feel like they have stepped backwards, but stepped into a new understanding gleaned by seeing their beliefs from differing angles.

You are just about my twins age (one of each) my son took world religions in college so he could explore more and part of his class was visiting other churches, synagogues, temples and spending some time with people his age discussing beliefs and traditions...he thoroughly enjoyed that experience. The world is such a big place.

Again, I wish you well on your journey...I hope we see you around the boards here, discussing your thoughts and experiences from your perspective. Have a blessed adventure!

 

[wil]

 

[Bhaktajan II]

Hi LOTR1993

I know of two terms: Jnana & Vi-jnana (gyana & vee-gyana) Knowledge & realised knowledge.

My question to you is [presuming you know there is material life and there is spiritual life ---and how they exist]:

Do you have a Soul? [I am educated on this subject from a tradition whose scripture teaches it]

Do you have a Soul? If you do, where is the chapter and verse? Is there more then one verse?

Have you been educated about what the soul is?

From my POV, I have not found world religions define what is soul. If they say they do, I find they know just scant notions.

Since we are spirit souls in the material world, the trappings of a material world is the presence of duality ---ergo, opposite(s) exist in all experiences.
[Happy & Sad; life and death; Rich and poor etc]

We are in a spiritual quest that seeks liberation from the trappings of a material world ---and to transcend these trappings we will find a way to engage the soul in "Eternal Duty".

But what is duty that is not a part of duality [living a lifes that cycles through being created, maintained & dissolved]?

There is material life. If there is a spiritual life, we train in etiquette so that when the ultimate test comes, we pass the exam.

The Human form of life allows for consciousness beyond gratification of our five senses.

There is a open book knowledge of the soul and its purpose.

LOTR1993, does God have a face?

Is God his own person?

They say God is eternal and transcendent to the material world and the God is the Origin of Soul and that we are each a tiny spark soul which is part and parcel of the Supreme Soul.

IS the soul of God personal enough an idea of what Godhead is?

God is the supreme personality and we are seeking him ---interpersonal exchanges are done for material motivation ---so devotional service to God's personage would be the reason for existence.

Only God could reveal God himself. And if asked for he will exposed is countenance.

God is the most attractive personality and is full in all opulences.

My congregation call Him by his traditional name: Krishna, supreme personality of God.

There is danger at every step in the material world. We might die at every next moment. We are gifted with breath during sleep and digestion while going about the day ---we can only manufacture desires but all mechanisms of the material world carry out their actions by the mercy of the material world which is manifest for souls to sojourn while cultivating the etiquette of how to act to gain the audience of Godhead Face to face.

 

[Bhaktajan II]

Similarly:

Do you believe in re-incarnation of the Soul? [I am educated on this subject from a tradition whose scripture teaches it]

Do you believe in re-incarnation of the Soul? If you do, where is the chapter and verse, from where you were taught? Is there more then one verse?

Have you been educated about re-incarnation of the Soul?

From my POV, I have not found world religions define what is re-incarnation of the Soul. If they say they do, I find they know just scant notions.

After all, when Jesus rose from the dead and went to the right hand of the father in Heaven ---Hindus would call that transmigration of the soul [aka re-incarnation of the Soul] by any other name would be the same. If Jesus is said to rise bodily from the dead, all power to him ---but Hindus would still call that transmigration of the soul.

NOTE: In Buddhism, the student is taught to seek nirvana ---but until then they are taught that the student will die and take another future bird endlessly one after the other until ---by intense dedicated life of penance finally achieve nirvana.

The student is taught to avoid bad karmic acts [sinfulness] so that future births will be accommodating ---until one is purer and purer in a birth so as to intensely dedicate a lifetime to do penance successfully and thus finally achieve nirvana.

 

[Thomas]

Greetings LOTR1993 —
That's an honest and detailed post.

The first thing I would say is that the majority of what you've said says more about your moral values than anything else, and those values would not be out of place in any religious tradition, if you speak to those with an open mind. Fundamentalists of every ilk will tell you otherwise, and I'm pretty sure your outlook on aspects of sexual morality will have fundie Christians glowering ...

– I am unsure if I believe in a God or not, but my GUT is telling me that there IS a higher power out there...
Now we're getting there.

– I think I believe in souls, but I'm not super sure.
OK

-I believe that all religions should respect each other.
They generally do, even though some congregations can be particularly partisan.

– I believe that keeping yourself "covered" in public is the right thing, however I don't believe that leggings, short skirts (within reason), or a little cleavage (also within reason) is wrong.
Here (as elsewhere) what is considered 'acceptable' in public is a matter primarily of cultural values and conditioning. Religions tend to incorporate a dress code according to the culture in which the religion is received, rather than there being a transmission of a dress-code by the religion.

I would say your toughest battle will be in discriminating between the message of the religion, and the cultural values it's wrapped in.

At first glance, for example, St Paul is quite a conservative hardliner in his views. If one looks closer, some of the things he said were shaped by his religious insight, and quite revolutionary with regard to his contemporary cultural values. In Ephesians 5 he tells women to obey their husbands, but he also tells husbands to obey their wives, and puts them on an equal footing before God. (as does 1 Peter).

The trouble is people read his exhortations within the context of a patriarchal cuture.

– I don't know what I believe about praying or the afterlife at this point. Like I said, I have a gut feeling that there IS some kind of higher power... I just don't really know right now. I spent a decade under the thumbs of conservative, strict, Christians, strongly and faithfully believing in what I was doing and passionately living for the Christ that I believe in. But I just believe in the Bible anymore. Too many things do not add up for me.
That final statement is said often, but that it does not add up to you does not mean it does not add up at all, but a negative experience of anything makes it difficult to see that thing clearly... And clearly, it does add up for many others.

Whichever way you go, you've got a long road ahead (or maybe not) ... I wish you well.

 

[Thomas]

After all, when Jesus rose from the dead ... Hindus would call that transmigration of the soul [aka re-incarnation of the Soul] by any other name would be the same.

Not really. Reincarnation does not mean the same person.

If Jesus is said to rise bodily from the dead, all power to him ---but Hindus would still call that transmigration of the soul.

Then they'd be wrong, unless they're altering the definition to make a special exception for the Resurrection.

Jesus was no reincarnated to continue His progress towards nirvana.

 

[Bhaktajan II]

Reincarnation does not mean the same person.

Yes. I stand corrected...on the same point yet again. Yes, I have learnt to amend use of this word [that strives to translate a Sanskrit word] ---and that's why I wrote "transmigration of the soul"

Did Jesus not die? Did Jesus not rise from the dead? Did Jesus not take birth among us Humans?

IMO Jesus may Resurrect with his scarred body or with a fresh body ---and with his persona unscathed ---because God can do anything he wants with the material & spiritual energies as he desires ---but Hindus would still call that transmigration of the soul. Now actually if a Hindu recognises Jesus as an Avatara adventing here on earth ---Hindus would say about Jesus's resurrection that "The Avatara has returned to his own abode"

Especially true that when a regular person dies [baptisted or not] and the soul leaves (and goes somewhere else...) --- Hindus would still call that transmigration of the soul.

At the time of death the soul leaves and takes residence in another body [via the birth process] garnering a vacancy for their soul to fill ---the status of the new birth/body/parents etc is as per one's qualifications [aka pasts works; aka past Karma]
"Past karma reaps future karma" [Actually, past act reap future "karmic re-actions"].

{{Hey did you know that spell check recognises the word "Karmic"?}}

Jesus was no reincarnated to continue His progress towards nirvana.

I did not say he did. I am not a Buddhist. I am a theist. I said Jesus ascended to heaven to the right hand of the father.

There is no such thing as an eternal state of nirvana for the soul. The is eternally individual, each and every soul is indivisibly existent. The soul never dies even when the body dies. All traits and mental experiences that the body had is lost upon death. But the soul proceeds towards a new means of attaining a body [this is done automatically as vacancies open] and the best vacancies goes to those that fulfill the maxim:

Luke 12:48: "For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required."

BUT...remember what Alfalfa warned: "The bigger they are the farther they fall"

 

[Namaste Jesus]

The Hindus I know consider Jesus a divine incarnate, beyond the cycle of reincarnation.

Following his crucifixion, Jesus neither reincarnated nor did he transmigrate. He resurrected. That is, rose from the dead, transfigured into an immortal form of the exact same body.

“Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have." Luke. 24:39​

 

[dreamytrident]

In The Bible - We see that the Body of Jesus was the { BODILY IMAGE of the Invisible Spirit Of God and He would eventually decompose, rot, decay, corrupt and turn to powdered dust or grow old and die.

However as complicated as this is, The Bible clarifies that Jesus was ~{ BODILY } literally The Full, Complete Holy Spirit, The Father and The Creator manifested / morphed into the human flesh.

Jesus explained all of this, that He came from the Father and that He would return back to the Father - The Father is able to place His Holy Spirit into human flesh and God created Himself a body and literally became a human being, The Holy Spirit shedding His Own Blood. -

Remember that The Father also appeared to Abraham in the Old Testament. ~~~ _- Gen 18:1 And the LORD: Yawhea / Jehovah appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day. The Father is speaking to Abraham, Eating, Walking and present here on the earth in the Morph / Manifestation of a human being. And we know that Jesus also stated that Abraham had seen Him.

Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
Joh 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? -

Here Jesus has plenty of opportunities to clear all of this up and make things right and not lead the audience astray. But Jesus went on to not only claim that Abraham had seen Him but that He { Jesus } has existed even existing BEFORE Abraham eXisted. I love reading the Bible and I hope this clears up what Jesus was saying in His word.

Thank You.

 

[Thomas]

---and that's why I wrote "transmigration of the soul"

OK

Did Jesus not die?

Yes He did.

Did Jesus not rise from the dead?

Yes. Resurrection.

Did Jesus not take birth among us Humans?

Yes, Incarnation.

IMO Jesus may Resurrect with his scarred body or with a fresh body --- and with his persona unscathed --- because God can do anything he wants with the material & spiritual energies as he desires --- but Hindus would still call that transmigration of the soul.

Personally, I think in that case they would be applying a generic term to a specific instance, although the actuality of the resurrection — the same body re-constituted/re-animated is not technically 'transmigration' because its not 'trans' (a movement across); if anything its retromigration, back into the body it just popped out of ... that 'trans' term assumes body and soul as separate entities, the soul abandoning one body and 'entering' a new one.

Now actually if a Hindu recognises Jesus as an Avatara adventing here on earth ---Hindus would say about Jesus's resurrection that "The Avatara has returned to his own abode"

More like it.

There is no such thing as an eternal state of nirvana for the soul. The is eternally individual, each and every soul is indivisibly existent. The soul never dies even when the body dies. All traits and mental experiences that the body had is lost upon death. But the soul proceeds towards a new means of attaining a body [this is done automatically as vacancies open] and the best vacancies goes to those that fulfill the maxim: Luke 12:48: "For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required." BUT...remember what Alfalfa warned: "The bigger they are the farther they fall"

Here's where I get confused about reincarnation.

I'm assuming:
1: I have a soul.
2: I am me.
3: That which I identify as me, is me, and not my soul. All experience, and everything brought about by experience, is to do with 'me' and all sensible, mental, emotional and other forms created by the organic process of being alive is ephemeral and lost with the death of the body.

So why is the soul dependent upon what the body gets up to, in that its karmic fate is decided by bodily ephemera?

If the soul is to the body as the driver is to the vehicle, then we have other issues ... why cannot the soul, by denying God, cut itself off from the source of life and then go into decline, as it's not self-subsisting? If the soul is God, why does it not know what it is and act like it is, or rather, how can we assume the soul is God when it wills the contrary to what God wills?

If eternal, does that mean it is still subject to space and time? If not, it is out of time and presumably 'above' time and aware of all time, all of the time so has no need of a body, experience, etc., etc. Remembering that time is physical.

Hebrews says: "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgment" (Hebrews 9:27) We could debate that the judgement spoken of decides the on-going state of the soul, to perdition, to the divine life, or back again into the world, but neither Scripture nor Tradition holds the third option as a possibility.

Nor do we hold the soul as necessarily eternal, it can 'die', and there is a stream of Christianity (it's there in Augustine) that regards the fate of the soul more in the light of continuance or extinction than in the rather medieval imagery of suffering. The image of Gehenna that Christ used when speaking of the soul is more akin to something that is abandoned, something that has no part in the creation. Rather than something that lives in perpetual torment, it is forgotten by God, and thus ceases to exist.

 

[Thomas]

In The Bible - We see that the Body of Jesus was the { BODILY IMAGE of the Invisible Spirit Of God and He would eventually decompose, rot, decay, corrupt and turn to powdered dust or grow old and die.

Er ... where?

Remember that The Father also appeared to Abraham in the Old Testament. ~~~ _- Gen 18:1 And the LORD: Yawhea / Jehovah appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day...

The Lord manifested as 'three men'. Were they angels? Were they prophets, the oracles of God? We cannot say ... but I think both Jews and Christians are wary of saying that God the Father appeared Himself as three men, because if that is how to read it, then we have a Trinity ... ? Rather Abraham was addressing three envoys of God, and therefore addressed them as God.

 

[wil]

Look what you've started LOTR93!!

You think you are confused, searching... we are hard at it decades later!!

 

[Thomas]

I am new to this forum and I am trying to understand what religion I am, if any.

OK.

-I believe that a person should live ...

This, and the other beliefs you list are laudable, but really not so much to do with religion as they are to do with an ethical position. This is not a criticism, just an observation. Apart from the points picked out below, the 'I believe' statements could apply to anyone in any relgion, as well as humanists, agnostics, atheists ... As a student of comparative religion, there's nothing there that gives me a steer towards any particular tradition or denomination.

I am unsure if I believe in a God or not, but my GUT is telling me that there IS a higher power out there. I just am really unsure WHO him/her/they are.

Well that established the ground, I suppose.

-I think I believe in souls, but I'm not super sure.

That narrows the field a bit more ...

-I believe that keeping yourself "covered" in public is the right thing, however I don't believe that leggings, short skirts (within reason), or a little cleavage (also within reason) is wrong.

You see, here's the thing. Just quite what 'covered' means depends on who establishes what is 'within reason' — how much leg to show, how much breast — these are cultural determinations. In the west 'fashion' is even more facile, more fragile, more ephemeral than any other value, changing almost moment-to-moment, and now dependent on social media celebrity endorsement (regardless of whether they have any taste or not).

-I DON'T believe that if you do good, you will get good back, and visa versa.

Oh, that rather rules out the traditions in which karma plays a big part.

I have spent my life ONLY doing good, often at my own expense, and have experienced an immeasurable amount of verbal/physical abuse, sickness/diseases, and suffering from my birth until this very moment - despite a life dedicated to OTHERS.

It sounds like there's a story behind this, but at face value, there is the question not so much of what good, but why.

I spent a decade under the thumbs of conservative, strict, Christians ...

Hmmm. Your chances of getting to grips with Christianity rather depends on whether you can get out from under that thumb.

But I just believe in the Bible anymore. Too many things do not add up for me.

Quantum physics makes less sense to me than Scripture, but ...

Can't help with where you go from here ... but I wish you luck!