Happiness

[KnowSelf]

Not much is mentioned about happiness. I don't see how there can be enlightenment without happiness. To develop long-term happiness one must be aware of personal barriers standing in your way or preventing happiness in your life. That's the easy part, next acknowledge your barriers and come to terms with your past.

Would you rather be enlightened or be happy? You don't have to choose, however, once enlightened there is no turning back. Happiness on the other hand may fluctuate with time.

You are better equipped at being happy when you are in the know.

 

[earl]

Being "enlightened" in the Buddhist sense isn't about being happy nor leads to happiness necessarily. Happiness may occur more often than pre-enlightenment, but 1 does not stop experiencing all the human emotions. One simply stops chasing them, avoiding them, or grabbing onto them. Enlightenment I think leads more to an emotional contentment and settledness even in the midst of negative emotions and circumstances..

 

[Thomas]

Yo ... long time ...

 

[Cino]

Would you rather be enlightened or be happy? You don't have to choose, however, once enlightened there is no turning back. Happiness on the other hand may fluctuate with time.

I would rather be happy, fluctuations and all.

The way you phrase it, it rather sounds like "would you rather be past puberty or be happy?" No turning back past puberty either... is that really what you believe enlightenment to be?

 

[KnowSelf]

Yes indeed I am happy to be past puberty for all of the benefits that might entail, However, I do not hold to the idea that one must suffer to achieve enlightenment although I must admit personal suffering was instrumental in bringing me to this point of life. Regardless it still goes back to perception I view adversity and hardships as opportunities for growth and greater perception.

To be enlightened one must take in all accounts of life and living whether directly or indirectly effecting what you may know or experience.

 

[Cino]

Yes indeed I am happy to be past puberty for all of the benefits that might entail, However, I do not hold to the idea that one must suffer to achieve enlightenment although I must admit personal suffering was instrumental in bringing me to this point of life. Regardless it still goes back to perception I view adversity and hardships as opportunities for growth and greater perception

I, too, am glad to be past puberty. But if someone had asked my pre-pubescent self, "Would you rather go through puberty (explaining what going through puberty is like), or be happy" - I would have chosen to be happy, for sure.

To be enlightened one must take in all accounts of life and living whether directly or indirectly effecting what you may know or experience.

But without taking in all accounts of the hardships and suffering of life, would you have gotten to where you are now?

I'm not into some hardcore macho "suffering is good for you, eat your suffering" thing here. I find it interesting how you seem to be resisting the idea that the dark sides of human existence have any bearing on what enlightenment is.

 

[KnowSelf]

No, I agree the dark sides of human existence is essential, but hot it is essential I cannot describe. Going to the balance of yin/yang without both sides of the coin can I compare and contrast. We understand positive and negative aspects of living based on comparison and contrasting thoughts and ideas.

'but without taking in all accounts of the hardships and suffering of life would have gotten to where you are now? That's a futile question any deviation of life circumstances would produce a different outcome.

 

[Cino]

That's a futile question any deviation of life circumstances would produce a different outcome.

Do you now of any person whose spiritual development has been all happiness throughout?

 

[KnowSelf]

What are you getting at? Life is not one color over another Black and White life is just life made up of everything imagined and real. Life is cool

 

[Cino]

What are you getting at? Life is not one color over another Black and White life is just life made up of everything imagined and real. Life is cool

I'm questioning the message I keep getting from your posts, that enlightenment will make life's problems and challenges go away, replacing them with a happy pleasure garden.

 

[RJM]

And I would like to take it a step further and ask the value of proclaiming myself enlightened? Am I a teacher trying to recruit followers? Am I trying to better the lives of others? Am I just so glowing that I cannot help sharing it with the rest of the world? Am I trying to open peoples' eyes about the need of going beyond traditional religious structure?

These are faith forums and the question is in good faith?

 

[RJM]

I mean it comes across as like proclaiming: I am so ahead -- and yet I don't think you intend it like that? I'm trying to get what you are intending to convey?

 

[KnowSelf]

Yeah I don't mean to self righteous or anything for that matter. Primarily I am saying suffering is not necessarily the only way of getting there. However, suffering may lead to understanding empathy, love and appreciation. But must we possess these things for enlightenment? Why or why not? If Love is the answer then empathy and appreciation would entail.

Can we dissect enlightenment?

 

[RJM]

Yeah I don't mean to self righteous or anything for that matter. Primarily I am saying suffering is not necessarily the only way of getting there. However, suffering may lead to understanding empathy, love and appreciation. But must we possess these things for enlightenment? Why or why not? If Love is the answer then empathy and appreciation would entail.

Can we dissect enlightenment?

Thank you for responding. I was exposed to the 70's 'new age' thing perhaps in excessive degree.

I saw a lot of spiritual pride and after many years, and a lot of what I'm not willing to talk about with most people, I had to lose everything, a few times really by degrees, and I got so much from that -- from God -- that in the end God led me back to the Christ with a submission to Christ, to throw myself at the foot of the Cross, in reality and outside and beyond any human words and thoughts and vanity.

I really dislike the 'social' aspect of church, by the way. If I go to church, I try to go there to God alone.

I personally don't get much of anything from the modern 'enlightenment' movement.

So why am I here, talking about God?

I often think it is too much talking. But these are good people. It is of value to me.

 

[KnowSelf]

Rephrasing “having to give everything up” to possibly an emptying of one’s self like sacrificing the self or ego to something greater. This is faith.

Pride is selfish and screams look at me. I hope I did not come across this way. Life and people are extremely valuable to me so much to fact of equality. No one is better than another even though we often play that game.
I don’t know about modern enlightenment, although I assume it is the same past and present.

In the 60s & 70s I sought after and actively pursued madness using Syd Barrett and Pink Floyd as a source for achievement.

Madness was an intriguing concept not everyone would understand or relate to. Nothing is wasted meaning all life experiences are valuable not to discredited or taken for granted.

I lost hope and I was alone, perhaps that was the important part of life, perhaps not. I cannot depict a single incident of more important than another for I am a whole person not dictated by bits and pieces

 

[RJM]

Primarily I am saying suffering is not necessarily the only way of getting there.

Agreed. But it is often the quickest and most effective? But yes: Because Solomon refused weath in favour of wisdom, he was given both in great measure. So it's the rare camel who can thread the needle -- to mangle metaphors.

However, suffering may lead to understanding empathy, love and appreciation. But must we possess these things for enlightenment?

No, as you say, they should/may spring from enlightenment? So it's the first commandment: first 'seek' God. Nothing else is more important. Love/empathy of my neighbour will come from it.

If Love is the answer ...

Perhaps love in greater terms is the glue that holds everything together, in the sense that all parts are of the One? It is bigger than the love we understand in nature?

Can we dissect enlightenment?

No probably not. But it's interesting to try to understand what is meant by the word by individual people?

I don't think I can find God. I can only ask God to come to me. To reveal himself to me. Or to reveal a tiny part.

I have to take the first step -- perhaps by prayer or fasting for instance -- but only God can take the other nine?

Something like that?

EDIT
I think that spiritual law is often quite different from natural law. The sermon on the mount and the Beatitudes are an example?

 

[RJM]

@KnowSelf

Do you prefer any particular faith or scripture? Not to say you are locked in to one?

 

[KnowSelf]

I am Christian in the sense I was forgiven and received salvation, however, I am mindful of what is determined as Buddhism. Buddhism makes natural sense to me as something much needed by individuals, world and cosmos. Buddhism seems tangible while Christian spiritualism is based on faith.

 

[RJM]

Thank you

Christian spiritualism is based on faith

On the experience of 'the touch of God' also. It may be close to what you are expressing by 'enlightenment'?

 

[KnowSelf]

I live each moment as it happens, I am connected. There is value in everything and everything is valuable, there is no waste it becomes something else.