Minds, Souls, Spirits, Bodies, Matter...

[Cino]

... how does it all fit together in your understanding or belief?

Are we souls animating flesh robots? Or are our brains like receivers tuning into spiritual worlds? Are ideas i destructible? Where do feelings come into the picture? Is the emotional heart a spiritual organ? Is consciousness a physical or a spiritual phenomenon?

 

[Truthseeker9]

Is consciousness a physical or a spiritual phenomenon?

It is a combination of both. They have not been able to show that consciousness can be explained solely from the brain. There is no doubt there is mental illness caused by the brain. So it is obvious that the spiritual cannot solely explain consciousness.

 

[Cino]

Yeah, mental illness sucks.

How about joy, contentment, peace? It's very fashionable in spiritual circles to see the body as the cause of dark mental states. But there are also nice ones in our repertoire, our endocrine system has feel-good juices, too.

 

[muhammad_isa]

It is a combination of both. They have not been able to show that consciousness can be explained solely from the brain. There is no doubt there is mental illness caused by the brain. So it is obvious that the spiritual cannot solely explain consciousness.

While we are in this physical world, the physical and spiritual are intertwined.
However, what comes first, "the chicken or the egg", is not always easy to establish.
i.e. what is the cause of mental health problems

 

[RJM]

Well a computer can be used simply as a typewriter and adding machine, etc. But its great value is as an internet receiver.

Perhaps the brain is like that? The majority of survival functions are 'just' brain activity. But there us stuff that comes in from outside too?

 

[Cino]

Well a computer can be used simply as a typewriter and adding machine, etc. But its great value is as an internet receiver.

Perhaps the brain is like that? The majority of survival functions are 'just' brain activity. But there us stuff that comes in from outside too?

Nice analogy, let me elaborate it a bit in a way I think is still meaningful.

When my computer is connected to the internet, it has an address, which is not fundamentally different from all other internet addresses. The machine running this forum software has a port open on its address, and my computer can access that port on the machine's address, and "receive" the forum that way.

But my computer can also open ports, and other machines can connect to it! The internet is fundamentally egalitarian, peer-to-peer, even if actors like the big commercial networks want us to believe that there is something fundamentally different and special about their internet addresses. It's a power/influence thing, not a property of the underlying technology. So I really like the internet analogy

About adding machines: the internet protocol can be decomposed into clever series of additions and comparisons for deciding which addition to perform next, and scratch space to store intermediate results. In fact, that is all computers can do. Built solely that, I read your posts. Isn't that amazing!

 

[muhammad_isa]

..It's a power/influence thing, not a property of the underlying technology.

A reflection of the life of this world .. we all have different intentions.

 

[Truthseeker9]

Yeah, mental illness sucks.

How about joy, contentment, peace? It's very fashionable in spiritual circles to see the body as the cause of dark mental states. But there are also nice ones in our repertoire, our endocrine system has feel-good juices, too.

Sex feels good, and that is from our brain

 

[Beautiful]

The heart is the hero of the universe

 

[Thomas]

... how does it all fit together in your understanding or belief?

I quite like the holistic idea ... we're not ensouled bodies or embodied souls, the body is the means by which the soul is present in the world. Different worlds, different bodies. Without a body the soul can do nothing in this or any world, without a body the soul is not present in this or any world, and without a soul, there is no life...

Soul is life, body is the living of it? In the language of the scholastics, the soul is, the body is its first act, the means by which it manifests itself.

Always a work in progress ...

 

[Thomas]

Nice analogy, let me elaborate it a bit in a way I think is still meaningful.

Let's run with it.

As a precursor, let's add the idea that other devices are programmed to be just what they are; a dishwasher, a TV set, a robot constructing cars on a production line. I view these as 'closed' systems, they are what they are and are 'unconscious' of the outside world, their 'perception' limited to what they need to accomplish the job for which they were designed.

I like RJM's point: speaking as an utter layman, a system runs 'basic' routines. 'An AI system' runs other stuff as well, and 'learns'.

But my computer can also open ports, and other machines can connect to it!

And so it can participate in the 'life' of others.

It's a power/influence thing, not a property of the underlying technology.

There's a whole theological debate, right there!

God is a property of the underlying tech. It's called love. God is not the tech, God is what powers the tech. Love powers the tech.

For man, it's about power/influence. There were two trees in the garden. One tree was the Handbook, the other was the Hackers' Guide. The Architect said, 'Stay away from the Hacker's Guide. There are inevitable effects you don't want to contemplate.' Did we listen? Did we ••••. 'Oh, if I can hack the system, I can run the system...'

Oh damn! This is a secular thread and I've gone all whoo-hoo. Sorry ...

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It's a power/influence thing, not a property of the underlying technology.

There's a whole philosophical debate, right there! There's life, and there's man's desire for power/influence, for control, for 'autonomy' in a non-autonomous system!

 

[wil]

the body is the means by which the soul is present in the world. Different worlds, different bodies.

Simultaneously?

 

[Cino]

Let's run with it.

As a precursor, let's add the idea that other devices are programmed to be just what they are; a dishwasher, a TV set, a robot constructing cars on a production line. I view these as 'closed' systems, they are what they are and are 'unconscious' of the outside world, their 'perception' limited to what they need to accomplish the job for which they were designed.

I like RJM's point: speaking as an utter layman, a system runs 'basic' routines. 'An AI system' runs other stuff as well, and 'learns'.


And so it can participate in the 'life' of others.


There's a whole theological debate, right there!

God is a property of the underlying tech. It's called love. God is not the tech, God is what powers the tech. Love powers the tech.

For man, it's about power/influence. There were two trees in the garden. One tree was the Handbook, the other was the Hackers' Guide. The Architect said, 'Stay away from the Hacker's Guide. There are inevitable effects you don't want to contemplate.' Did we listen? Did we ••••. 'Oh, if I can hack the system, I can run the system...'

Oh damn! This is a secular thread and I've gone all whoo-hoo. Sorry ...

Scroll up to line 12:


There's a whole philosophical debate, right there! There's life, and there's man's desire for power/influence, for control, for 'autonomy' in a non-autonomous system!

Not at all! This is good stuff.

But you moved the focus from the network/cloud to the individual device. Which is also fun to explore, I'm just pointing this out.

I really like your take on power/influence, but obviously I see it the other way around - I see the corporate End User License Agreement to never open the screws, because it will void the warranty. And being someone who likes to poke around the innards of software, I can tell you that there are a lot of dirty secrets in there, which makes me wonder about the motivation behind the EULA

Also, if God/Love is what powers the tech - i.e. the electricity - then who is the architect in this analogy? Surely not some kind of gnostic engineer-type Fashioner?

 

[wil]

Also, if God/Love is what powers the tech - i.e. the electricity - then who is the architect in this analogy?

Does there need to be one?

Can't the TOE be principle.

I mean in the standard paradigm we needed a being, spirit, entity.

What if we move on from that?

 

[RJM]

Well it becomes 'The Watchmaker' debate. Is it clear evidence of deliberate design?

Which could be stretching the analogy a bit too far? The point is that my computer can pick up an email from my brother in Australia, with information that originates from him.

It is not a product of my computer, but a message from outside?

 

[Thomas]

Simultaneously?

Getting into deep Hindu aspects, I'd say yes, but we need to be careful and differentiate levels — Life 'all in all' simultaneously, but then individually aspected within that? An off-the cuff reply, I'd have to work it if we shake it out a bit.

 

[Thomas]

But you moved the focus from the network/cloud to the individual device. Which is also fun to explore, I'm just pointing this out.

Something for me to think about.

... I see the corporate End User License Agreement to never open the screws, because it will void the warranty. And being someone who likes to poke around the innards of software, I can tell you that there are a lot of dirty secrets in there, which makes me wonder about the motivation behind the EULA

Well, goshdarn it, that's what got into this mess in the first place, LOL!

But there's a serious side. Tony Benn, a famous British radical socialist, put these five questions as fundamental to anyone living within a (democratic) system:
1: What power have you got?
2: Where did you get it from?
3: In whose interests do you use it?
4: To whom are you accountable?
5: How do we get rid of you?”
And if there was no sufficient answer to all or any, especially No5, then you're not in a democracy.

And the theological question is do we assume or suspect God of having an ulterior motive?

Also, if God/Love is what powers the tech - i.e. the electricity - then who is the architect in this analogy? Surely not some kind of gnostic engineer-type Fashioner?

Nope. God. God in Her essence, in that God is God regardless of all or any modes of existence. The juice that runs the whole shebang, and holds it all together, is God in His energies.

 

[Cino]

The heart is the hero of the universe

Is there a quest for the hero of the universe?

And a welcome from me to the forums!

 

[Cino]

Something for me to think about.


Well, goshdarn it, that's what got into this mess in the first place, LOL!

But there's a serious side. Tony Benn, a famous British radical socialist, put these five questions as fundamental to anyone living within a (democratic) system:
1: What power have you got?
2: Where did you get it from?
3: In whose interests do you use it?
4: To whom are you accountable?
5: How do we get rid of you?”
And if there was no sufficient answer to all or any, especially No5, then you're not in a democracy.

Yes, #5 is a tough one in today's political landscape. It's also my favorite!

And the theological question is do we assume or suspect God of having an ulterior motive?


Nope. God. God in Her essence, in that God is God regardless of all or any modes of existence. The juice that runs the whole shebang, and holds it all together, is God in His energies.

So, a self-serving ulterior motive even?

But more seriously, the god juice (meant respectfully), how does it interact with or compare to consciousness, souls, brains, ideas, apart from being their substrate or otherwise sustaining them (as I understood you)?

 

[Thomas]

So, a self-serving ulterior motive even?

But more seriously, the god juice (meant respectfully), how does it interact with or compare to consciousness, souls, brains, ideas, apart from being their substrate or otherwise sustaining them (as I understood you)?

Lots of questions in there, lots of distinctions ...

The juice powers the system? I'm having difficulty explaining without going into theological thinking ... I don't want to derail the thread.

I'd say the body is the organ of the soul, the brain is the organ of the mind, allowing that 'brain' seems to encompass more than just the grey matter in our heads, as I believe there are neural systems around the heart and the gut?

Human consciousness is the awareness of an 'I' and other 'I's and then the speculation on I-ness-as-such?