The place of the human

[ScholarlySeeker]

Thomas
"Because the creature (Gk ktisis 'creature' but also 'creation') also itself shall be delivered from the servitude of corruption, into the liberty of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation (ktisis) groans and travails in pain (figurative: labour pains), even till now. And not only it, but ourselves also, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit (pneuma), even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption of the sons of God, the redemption of our body (soma)." Romans 8:21-23.

Soma is interesting, as it infers the totality of the body, whereas sarx means the flesh. But if it was just our souls that would be, in effect, transfigured, then it would not correctly be soma.

So I hold that it is not the case that Created Nature is a disposable vehicle – like some stage of a rocket that becomes redundant – of the soul on its journey, rather, the body is the material form of the soul in the physical realm, and by extension, an interpretation of the above text is that the whole creation is reborn, changed, as Revelations says: "Behold, I make all things new." Revelations 21:5.

I think this is quite interesting. I'm not Catholic and don't know a lot about them, but having been studying the Jewish esoteric materials for a bit, this appears to me to be close to some version of Jewish spirituality actually. The interpretation given concerning the esoteric doctrine of the Jewish Kabbalah by Leonora Leet is that the embodied human will also be conjoined and immortalized with the spirit, not as spirit, but as a united finiteness with infiniteness. I honestly don't have any idea HOW that is going to work, but it is a theme she works on. I found it quite remarkable actually. Yes, our bodies are not supposedly understood as a mere stage, but of a necessity. I mean Paul did contend that our bodies are temples. How literal was he in that assertion? The Kabbalah in some interpretations, would entirely agree with that being literal.

 

[Thomas]

I'm not Catholic and don't know a lot about them, but having been studying the Jewish esoteric materials for a bit, this appears to me to be close to some version of Jewish spirituality actually.

Scholarship is continually unfolding a more sophisticated Judaism of Christ's day.

The interpretation given concerning the esoteric doctrine of the Jewish Kabbalah by Leonora Leet is that the embodied human will also be conjoined and immortalized with the spirit, not as spirit, but as a united finiteness with infiniteness.

Hebrew anthropology has always been that the person is a unity of body and soul – in fact body-soul-spirit – and that is marker of distinction between the Hebrew and Hellenic dualist world views. The dualism is of course there in Hebrew writings, but it's not as absolute as it was for the Greeks.

I honestly don't have any idea HOW that is going to work ...

LOL. Come the day, I'm sure it'll be a surprise for everyone!

I always view the speculations of Paul and John, two great mystics of their day, as significant:
We see now through a glass in a dark manner; but then face to face. Now I know in part; but then I shall know even as I am known" (1 Corinthians 13:12)

"Dearly beloved, we are now the sons of God; and it hath not yet appeared what we shall be. We know, that, when he shall appear, we shall be like to him: because we shall see him as he is" (1 John 3:2).

It's almost as if the two knew each other!

I mean Paul did contend that our bodies are temples. How literal was he in that assertion? The Kabbalah in some interpretations, would entirely agree with that being literal.

Well – again thanks to Jewish scholars – Paul seems to reference Markabah mystical speculation in one of his epistles.

The Christian designations of the 'spiritualisation' of the soul are drawn from the Hebrew.

Leonora Leet looks really interesting.

 

[Thomas]

The interpretation given concerning the esoteric doctrine of the Jewish Kabbalah by Leonora Leet is that the embodied human will also be conjoined and immortalized with the spirit, not as spirit, but as a united finiteness with infiniteness.

A Platonic (dualist) view was that the eternal soul dwelt in eternal bliss in the contemplation of the Divine. For some reason, commonly presented as the soul becoming satiated, it turned away, and in this turning away began to fall away from God. God then created the material world and the physical body to catch and arrest the falling soul …

This is the classical Platonic triumvirate: stasis–kinesis–genesis (rest-movement-becoming).

St Maximus turned this Platonic dictum on its head. Following Scripture, which is Hebrew-founded and therefore holistic, in holding that the individual soul is created (thus not eternal).

He reworked the triumvirate as becoming-movement-rest: Nature is brought forth 'out of nothing' (ex nihilo), and this coming-to-be is itself a movement (from nothing to something) and this movement continues until it reaches the 'omega point', its perfection and its fulness, which in the case of the soul is its deification (theosis), at which point it becomes one with the Divine by adoption, by being drawn up ‘out of itself’ into the contemplation of the Divine.

Christian metaphysics views human nature as one that is 'open to the infinite', and from there we get into the mystical senses of aligning the human will with the Divine will, and/or that the human intellect can host or in some small way unite with the Intellect.

St Maximus (again) viewed man as the apex of creation in the sense that at ground level there is the mineral world, then there is the flora world (mineral+) then the fauna world (mineral+flora+), then human, then angelic. Angels are higher than humans because they are pure intellect/spirit, humans are higher than angels because they are a unity of intellect/matter, spirit/body ... so in man all physical creation is present, and man can be consciously present in and to God.

As Paul said: "For we know that all creation groans and travails in pain, even till now. And not only it, but ourselves also, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption of the sons of God, the redemption of our body" (Romans 8:22-23).

 

[ScholarlySeeker]

A Platonic (dualist) view was that the eternal soul dwelt in eternal bliss in the contemplation of the Divine. For some reason, commonly presented as the soul becoming satiated, it turned away, and in this turning away began to fall away from God. God then created the material world and the physical body to catch and arrest the falling soul …

This is the classical Platonic triumvirate: stasis–kinesis–genesis (rest-movement-becoming).

St Maximus turned this Platonic dictum on its head. Following Scripture, which is Hebrew-founded and therefore holistic, in holding that the individual soul is created (thus not eternal).

He reworked the triumvirate as becoming-movement-rest: Nature is brought forth 'out of nothing' (ex nihilo), and this coming-to-be is itself a movement (from nothing to something) and this movement continues until it reaches the 'omega point', its perfection and its fulness, which in the case of the soul is its deification (theosis), at which point it becomes one with the Divine by adoption, by being drawn up ‘out of itself’ into the contemplation of the Divine.

Christian metaphysics views human nature as one that is 'open to the infinite', and from there we get into the mystical senses of aligning the human will with the Divine will, and/or that the human intellect can host or in some small way unite with the Intellect.

St Maximus (again) viewed man as the apex of creation in the sense that at ground level there is the mineral world, then there is the flora world (mineral+) then the fauna world (mineral+flora+), then human, then angelic. Angels are higher than humans because they are pure intellect/spirit, humans are higher than angels because they are a unity of intellect/matter, spirit/body ... so in man all physical creation is present, and man can be consciously present in and to God.

As Paul said: "For we know that all creation groans and travails in pain, even till now. And not only it, but ourselves also, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption of the sons of God, the redemption of our body" (Romans 8:22-23).

You are always so insightful and bring so much to your posts. I know....I KNOW how much work sometimes it gets to be, and it is not a thankless task. I enjoy reading your missives.

You said Christian metaphysics views human nature as one that is 'open to the infinite', and from there we get into the mystical senses of aligning the human will with the Divine will, and/or that the human intellect can host or in some small way unite with the Intellect.

And I say that this is one of the sincerely great things about it. It presents us with an hope doesn't it? I mean, regardless of what we understand or think we know, this says "hey! You earthling! It IS open to you so keep yer heads up, be encouraged." Doesn't that say that to you? It sure does to me.

I read a pretty large book a while back, one of the cooler ones I have read, by David and Marjorie Haight, "The Scandal of Reason" wherein they describe the idea of the relationship of the finite with the infinite and how the logic might possibly work. Well bruthuh it ain't no Aristotelian logic that's for sure! Lol! But there is just something slightly larger than we are that makes us yearn for it and realize hey man this is worth stretching for. This is worth a bit of extra work to try and fathom, to learn, and enjoy! Gadfry I love books that do that!

 

[davidsheep88]

Humans are creatures like king solomon says we are animals eccliastes says it too. Man are born like animals, eat, and die like them. but we are also sons like the bible says we are all slaves until we are proven to god and become his sons.

 

[ScholarlySeeker]

Humans are creatures like king solomon says we are animals eccliastes says it too. Man are born like animals, eat, and die like them. but we are also sons like the bible says we are all slaves until we are proven to god and become his sons.

Good points. I believe the Jewish idea of animal sacrifices was also symbolic of us sacrificing our own animal natures and elevating ourselves into the holy...

 

[RJM]

Humans are creatures like king solomon says we are animals eccliastes says it too. Man are born like animals, eat, and die like them. but we are also sons like the bible says we are all slaves until we are proven to god and become his sons.

Good points. I believe the Jewish idea of animal sacrifices was also symbolic of us sacrificing our own animal natures and elevating ourselves into the holy...

I think that animal sacrifice originated from tribal days when cattle were the most valuable possessions. To sacrifice is to give to God something of value. The purpose was to give your best animal to God. It was not about the blood, but about the value of the animal. Later it became corrupted to mean blood upon the altar. The proper meaning was lost.

Christ came to correct the error (amongst a lot of other things too) by making of himself the last blood sacrifice – after chasing out of the temple courtyard the merchants who were selling animals for sacrifice. Imo

 

[muhammad_isa]

..To sacrifice is to give to God something of value. The purpose was to give your best animal to God. It was not about the blood, but about the value of the animal..

I would agree..

36. And the camels! We have appointed them among the ceremonies of God. Therein ye have much good. So mention the name of God over them when they are drawn up in lines. Then when their flanks fall (dead), eat thereof and feed the beggar and the suppliant. Thus have We made them subject unto you, that haply ye may give thanks.

37. Their flesh and their blood reach not God, but the devotion from you reacheth Him. Thus have We made them subject unto you that ye may magnify God that He hath guided you. And give good tidings (O Muhammad) to the good

38. Lo! God defendeth those who are true. Lo! God loveth not each treacherous ingrate.
- Qur'an Al-Hajj -