The Tribes

[muhammad_isa]

Almighty God says in the Qur'an:-

49 And We verily gave Moses the Scripture, that haply they might go aright.
50 And We made the son of Mary and his mother a portent, and We gave them refuge on a height, a place of flocks and watersprings.
51 O ye messengers! Eat of the good things, and do right. Lo! I am Aware of what ye do.

52 And lo! this your religion is one religion and I am your Lord, so keep your duty unto Me.
53 But they (mankind) have broken their religion among them into sects, each group rejoicing in its tenets.
54 So leave them in their error till a time.
- Qur'an .. The Believers -

That is what I see. People are like flocks of animals, in that they attend this church or that, this mosque or that,
and love to sit there praising themselves for thier dogma / rituals.
They also often love to criticise their "rivals", and proudly claim to know all about the Divine One.

I suppose it's no surprise. After all, a lot of people think that mankind is an accidental branch of apes

 

[RJM]

God doesn't care about my religion or my faith. God meets me where I am when my life brings me to submit my own free will to the divine assistance, and guides me from that point, imo

If God guides one through Jesus and another through Krishna, and another through Muhammad -- that is how God works, imo

 

[wil]

suppose it's no surprise. After all, a lot of people think that mankind is an accidental branch of apes

There is that disengeuos snark.

And I assume you are NOT one of.those people who missguidingly purport.humans to be descended from apes but KNOWS we are descended from common ancestors each on our evolutionary paths?

So first the title.... It appears the post.is not about tribes...but sects and denominations...and really not even them but the difference between all religions?

I was excited about the opportunity to discuss and learn about the tribes...not so much interested in pursuing pseudoscience nor non interfaith sniping.

 

[RJM]

We are apes by category. I believe? Whether accidental, is the question. It's not one that can be answered.

 

[muhammad_isa]

There is that disengeuos snark..

The emoji denotes a non-serious tone. You can dish out sarcasm, but not take it?

And I assume you are NOT one of.those people who missguidingly purport.humans to be descended from apes but KNOWS we are descended from common ancestors each on our evolutionary paths?

I don't know the origin of mankind, but I am !00% certain it is no accident.
I also think that the Qur'an is no accident. It is not the work of men.
Written by men, but not authored by men.

So first the title.... It appears the post.is not about tribes...but sects and denominations...and really not even them but the difference between all religions?

On the contrary. The vast majority of people stay in their "comfort zone" with their own tribe, when it comes to religion.
..or perhaps abstain, or claim to be agnostic etc.

...not so much interested in pursuing pseudoscience nor non interfaith sniping.

I was quoting the Qur'an, and giving a "tafsir" [ explanation ] of its meaning.
It is not pseudoscience. It is mainstream belief that has a clear interpretation.

 

[muhammad_isa]

If God guides one through Jesus and another through Krishna, and another through Muhammad -- that is how God works, imo

That's right .. I agree.
However, it is also actually possible to "put one's fingers in their ears", and ignore something important.

 

[RJM]

God speaks/connects to every person who submits in a clear way, imo. There is no compulsion in religion. There are a few other religions out there. And countless people in between. I cannot claim my own as the only way to paradise/divine truth

 

[RJM]

It's no longer tribal: the internet makes everything available to everybody. Some want to preserve tribal fences.* Personal integrity is all we have left?

The pity is that standard human kindness may be lacking more between theists towards their "opponents" than the common human courtesy/consideration that is the normal modus operandi in the everyday secular world imo

We can say we've left the past behind, but it can't ever be true, because the past never leaves us

* Leaders and people with invested interests usually?

edited

 

[wil]

God speaks to every person who submits in a clear way, imo. There is no compulsion in religion. There are a few other religions out there. And countless people in between. I cannot claim my own as the only way to paradise/divine truth

Easily acceptable by any other than those that believe theirs is the only way.

 

[RJM]

I don't have the answer for all men. I have the answer from God to me: it's my my only duty and my only call? Religion/scripture is the shell of the nut, but God can speak in many other ways, imo

 

[muhammad_isa]

I'm back..
I had some important business in London. [ as did Joe Biden, so I understand ]

I don't have the answer for all men..

Nor do I .. but Almighty God does.
I'm not quite sure which tribe I belong to any more. "White / European", I suppose.

I will continue to stick-up for, or side with my tribe if I perceive that they follow truth.
Issues such as climate-change and democracy, I'm on board.

When it comes to religion, not so much.
Religion should be a way of life for a Muslim, but for Europeans, it has become
more "incidental" than anything else.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I was excited about the opportunity to discuss and learn about the tribes...

I'm not sure if I share your enthusiasm.
I was watching a documentary on the last 50 years of Northern Ireland, and it seems very much like
"birds of a feather flock together".

Why? Is it about fear? Or is it maybe about having the upper-hand? What exactly?

 

[stranger]

I'm not sure if I share your enthusiasm.
I was watching a documentary on the last 50 years of Northern Ireland, and it seems very much like
"birds of a feather flock together".

Why? Is it about fear? Or is it maybe about having the upper-hand? What exactly?

Welcome back friend, I trust your latest business venture was profitable.

I would venture that trust is an issue with regard to tribalism. Misunderstanding, etc. I keep going back to the well of love at the risk of sounding like a one pony trick, but love is our only hope. There will always be differences, so... what? Do we stop loving just because someone doesn't fit into our qualifications for tribe membership? IMO, no, if the love is true. Love is not possession, it is meant to set free, not capture. Forcing tribe rules on a person of a different path can only result in defensive reticence. We have to make up our minds whether we can love a person as they are or not. If not, then let them go, they will be ok. The universe/God/Allah is still there to protect and guide them.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I would venture that trust is an issue with regard to tribalism. Misunderstanding, etc..

Yes, but I'm afraid history yet again comes into it, imo.
I expect you've heard of "the Orange Order". People marching and waving flags

Its name is a tribute to the Dutch-born Protestant Parliament-supported prince William of Orange's defeat of Catholic English king James II in the Williamite–Jacobite War (1688–1691)
- wiki -

Sometimes I wonder whether people are actually living in the 21st century
Doesn't it just become a question of "I belong to this tribe or that", and the roots of the troubles become irrelevant?

The Nine Years' War (1688–1697), was a conflict between France and a European coalition which mainly included the Holy Roman Empire (led by the Habsburg Monarchy), the Dutch Republic, England, Spain, Savoy and Portugal. It was fought in Europe and the surrounding seas, in North America, and in India. It is sometimes considered the first global war.
- wiki -

Nothing to do with Muslims then

 

[wil]

Nothing to do with Muslims then

Do you feel the 12 tribes ever had anything to do with Muslims?

 

[RJM]

Tribes exist. Sets exist. A set includes members based on a certain common value. Odd numbers. Even numbers. Liberals/conservatives. Infinite divisions. Football fans support their home team, but unite to support the national team.

Tribes war murderously with one another, but unite against a common agressor. The subject is both simple and complex.

What is the discussion, actually?

 

[muhammad_isa]

What is the discussion, actually?

I suppose it is about misplaced loyalty.
First and foremost, we should "love G-d more than we love any other".

In turn, that means we have a duty to seek knowledge, and not just act tribally when it comes to religion.

Personally, I don't think it reasonable that there can be so many different Abrahamic sects due to belief.
I think it is more about our tribal nature. We need to overcome it, imo.

 

[wil]

Personally, I don't think it reasonable that there can be so many different Abrahamic sects due to belief.
I think it is more about our tribal nature. We need to overcome it, imo.

So you just want fewer tribes?

What if we decide to eliminate your tribe? You ready to be Mormon next? Or Bahai?

 

[muhammad_isa]

So you just want fewer tribes?
What if we decide to eliminate your tribe?

That's not it. It is not a case of eliminating anybody. It's a case of people seeking knowledge.
It is clear that most people profess a certain belief due to belonging to a tribe.

That is not sincerity .. that is negligence, imo.
We all have to return to our Creator eventually.
No amount of flag-waving will change that.

 

[wil]

That's not it. It is not a case of eliminating anybody. It's a case of people seeking knowledge.
It is clear that most people profess a certain belief due to belonging to a tribe.

That is not sincerity .. that is negligence, imo.
We all have to return to our Creator eventually.
No amount of flag-waving will change that.

So?

Again...are you ready to become Bahai if we vote that as the only tribe?