Gender Expression as a Fashion Trend

seattlegal

Mercuræn Buddhist
Messages
6,877
Reaction score
275
Points
83
Location
Pacific Ring of Fire
I'm really not seeing the reason for all of the outrage over young women wanting to have their breasts removed. Please help me understand the reasoning behind this outrage. I will listen because I want to understand.
 

'Amir Alzzalam

Šayṭānist
Messages
584
Reaction score
185
Points
43
I'm really not seeing the reason for all of the outrage over young women wanting to have their breasts removed. Please help me understand the reasoning behind this outrage. I will listen because I want to understand.
Would breast reduction (for health and appearance) be completely something different than having your breasts completely removed in lieu of becoming a non-female?
 

seattlegal

Mercuræn Buddhist
Messages
6,877
Reaction score
275
Points
83
Location
Pacific Ring of Fire
Would breast reduction (for health and appearance) be completely something different than having your breasts completely removed in lieu of becoming a non-female?
I would say that there is some overlap. Starting with a breast reduction rather than a full mastectomy would probably be a better way to go with these folks. A full double mastectomy would require follow-up sculpting and such, so why not just start with the breast reduction first and see if that helps these folk feel better about themselves?
 

RJM

God Feeds the Ravens
Admin
Messages
9,283
Reaction score
2,194
Points
108
I'm really not seeing the reason for all of the outrage over young women wanting to have their breasts removed. Please help me understand the reasoning behind this outrage. I will listen because I want to understand.
It's about the encouragement of a rush towards life-changing cosmetic surgery as a fashion fad amongst teenagers by universities and activist medics and counsellors, without a proper consideration of the gender dysphoria as genuine and long lasting, imo
 

seattlegal

Mercuræn Buddhist
Messages
6,877
Reaction score
275
Points
83
Location
Pacific Ring of Fire
It's about the encouragement of a rush towards life-changing cosmetic surgery as a fashion fad amongst teenagers by universities and activist medics and counsellors, without a proper consideration of the gender dysphoria as genuine and long lasting, imo
I can see the hub-bub over the hormone therapy and the neophallic procedure, but not so much the breasts, which by itself, would yield an overall health benefit rather than causing harm.
 

RJM

God Feeds the Ravens
Admin
Messages
9,283
Reaction score
2,194
Points
108
I can see the hub-bub over the hormone therapy and the neophallic procedure, but not so much the breasts, which by itself, would yield an overall health benefit rather than causing harm.
Well, if sold as such: "Kids get your breasts removed today, to reduce the risk of cancer later on."
 

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

Junior Moderator, Intro
Moderator
Messages
7,999
Reaction score
1,122
Points
108
Location
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
It's about the encouragement of a rush towards life-changing cosmetic surgery as a fashion fad amongst teenagers by universities and activist medics and counsellors, without a proper consideration of the gender dysphoria as genuine and long lasting, imo
Sometimes the surgery isn't cosmetic. One of my cousins had reduction surgery because she was constantly in pain due to being huge (her back pain was worse during her first pregnancy.) She was reduced to a DD cup, and she breathed a sigh of relief afterwards from what I understand. Both sides of her family ran "extra extra large" in the breast department. An equivalent that you might be able to understand is if you had a phallus roughly the size of a young bull elephant's prior to surgery.

Then there are people like me who are categorized as intersexuals, who have been been forced into one gender role or the other in the past (some even went as far as self-harm!)

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine
 
  • Like
Reactions: RJM

seattlegal

Mercuræn Buddhist
Messages
6,877
Reaction score
275
Points
83
Location
Pacific Ring of Fire
It's about the encouragement of a rush towards life-changing cosmetic surgery as a fashion fad amongst teenagers by universities and activist medics and counsellors, without a proper consideration of the gender dysphoria as genuine and long lasting, imo
Ok, other than scarring, what is the downside of having your breasts removed or reduced? I can certainly see the downside of hormonal therapies and the "bottom surgeries" if one is not firmly transgender. I can see the downside to the lip surgery fashion trend. However, I am really having difficulty understanding why people flip out over breast removal, to the point of Jordan Peterson calling Elliot's physician who removed their breasts criminal. No one blinks an eye at young women having ribs removed for beauty contests, which is much more harmful.
 

RJM

God Feeds the Ravens
Admin
Messages
9,283
Reaction score
2,194
Points
108
Ok, other than scarring, what is the downside of having your breasts removed or reduced? I can certainly see the downside of hormonal therapies and the "bottom surgeries" if one is not firmly transgender. I can see the downside to the lip surgery fashion trend. However, I am really having difficulty understanding why people flip out over breast removal, to the point of Jordan Peterson calling Elliot's physician who removed their breasts criminal. No one blinks an eye at young women having ribs removed for beauty contests, which is much more harmful.
I think it's probably the context. Breast removal is being sold as gender transformation surgery, in conjunction with hormone therapy etc, to young impressionable teenagers. In the context Peterson is reacting to Elliot as a role model, but I have said that Peterson seems to go over the top a bit nowadays. It's understood that he feels very strongly about his subject and his mission. Elliot is an informed adult, not a child.

But the context of breast reduction or breast enlargement, or plastic surgery in general as cosmetic (or medically advised) procedure, isn't really the same as activist medics and counsellors effectively pushing and encouraging impressionable youngsters towards life-changing and irreversible surgery as part of gender transformation?
 
Last edited:

RJM

God Feeds the Ravens
Admin
Messages
9,283
Reaction score
2,194
Points
108
The big part of his problem is with the language of consent that he stands up to and will not buy into, and the (woke/Twitter) mob reaction to cancel and silence him as a result, imo ...
 

seattlegal

Mercuræn Buddhist
Messages
6,877
Reaction score
275
Points
83
Location
Pacific Ring of Fire
But the context of breast reduction or breast enlargement, or plastic surgery in general as cosmetic (or medically advised) procedure, isn't really the same as activist medics and counsellors effectively pushing and encouraging impressionable youngsters towards life-changing and irreversible surgery as part of gender transformation?
I guess I'm on the other side of the camp from you. I think it is sad for young women to have to claim they are trans in order to obtain sterilization and breast reduction.
 

Ella S.

Well-Known Member
Messages
703
Reaction score
537
Points
88
Location
United States
Yes, Jungian psychology has mostly fallen into irrelevance. Concepts like the "Persona" are no longer considered clinically valid.

Trans people suffer from gender dysphoria. It's not a fashion statement, but a psychiatric illness. The treatment for people with gender dysphoria is to help them live in a way that mitigates that dysphoria, such as by dressing according to their gender and finding supportive people in their life who affirm their gender.

Gender is not a product of the persona, but a facet of neurology that is still being researched. There are fundamental differences between the brain of someone who is transgender and someone who is cisgender, and this can be medically diagnosed.

Surgery in this instance is not a cosmetic fashion statement, but a treatment for an underlying condition.

ETA: And, obviously, gender and chromosomal sex are not the same thing. While some trans people are transsexuals and have their anatomical sex changed surgically, this is not viable for all trans people.

Some people experience gender dysphoria no matter whether they present male or female, or else their dysphoria acts in a bipolar fashion where they experience dysphoria presenting female one day and dysphoria presenting male the next day. These are forms of nonbinary gender.

And it is a real, medical construct, even though the vast majority of people are cisgendered.
 

Ella S.

Well-Known Member
Messages
703
Reaction score
537
Points
88
Location
United States
I think it's probably the context. Breast removal is being sold as gender transformation surgery, in conjunction with hormone therapy etc, to young impressionable teenagers. In the context Peterson is reacting to Elliot as a role model, but I have said that Peterson seems to go over the top a bit nowadays. It's understood that he feels very strongly about his subject and his mission. Elliot is an informed adult, not a child.

But the context of breast reduction or breast enlargement, or plastic surgery in general as cosmetic (or medically advised) procedure, isn't really the same as activist medics and counsellors effectively pushing and encouraging impressionable youngsters towards life-changing and irreversible surgery as part of gender transformation?

If someone genuinely suffers from gender dysphoria, then it is important to diagnose and treat that as early as possible.

Misdiagnosis is something that should be avoided, granted, but denying teenagers medical treatment because you think their issues are just a fad is... not great.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RJM

Ella S.

Well-Known Member
Messages
703
Reaction score
537
Points
88
Location
United States
The big part of his problem is with the language of consent that he stands up to and will not buy into, and the (woke/Twitter) mob reaction to cancel and silence him as a result, imo ...

Twitter hates everyone. That's social media for you. The bigger issue is denying kids proper healthcare.
 

RJM

God Feeds the Ravens
Admin
Messages
9,283
Reaction score
2,194
Points
108
Misdiagnosis is something that should be avoided, granted, but denying teenagers medical treatment because you think their issues are just a fad is... not great.
Well look, the videos and podcasts here indicate anything but denial of gender treatment. It's the opposite: it is being encouraged and rushed through, and as such is becoming a fashion-fad.* That is the issue. The issue is never with genuine gender dysphoria, but with activist medics and counsellors pushing and encouraging youngsters to begin gender transition treatment -- both hormonal and surgical -- without the proper medical and psychological checks and balances. Clinical psychologists are instructed to affirm and assist, rather than to assess and guide.

There can be a debate about it, like we're doing here. However in the wider context the debate is shouted down and silenced, and heretics are gagged. As I said earlier, many do not bother with depth research, but form opinions set-in-stone from abbreviated social media soundbites, and gang up to cancel anyone who wants a proper discussion as transphobic, etc.

*Testosterone and breast removal surgery are being subsidized and promoted by universities

Just my thoughts ...

(edited)
 
Last edited:

seattlegal

Mercuræn Buddhist
Messages
6,877
Reaction score
275
Points
83
Location
Pacific Ring of Fire
Well look, the videos and podcasts here indicate anything but denial of gender treatment. It's the opposite: it is being encouraged and rushed through, and as such is becoming a fashion-fad.* That is the issue. The issue is never with genuine gender dysphoria, but with activist medics and counsellors pushing and encouraging impressionable youngsters to begin gender transition treatment -- both hormonal and surgical -- without the proper medical and psychological checks and balances. Clinical psychologists are instructed to affirm and assist, rather than to assess and guide.

There can be a debate about it, like we're doing here. However in the wider context the debate is shouted down and silenced, and heretics are gagged. As I said earlier, many do not bother with depth research, but form opinions set-in-stone from abbreviated social media soundbites, and gang up to cancel anyone who wants a proper discussion as transphobic, etc.

*Testosterone and breast removal surgery are being subsidized and promoted by universities

Just my thoughts ...

(edited)
One could make a very plausible argument that much of the internet and social media works in a manner analogous with fashion trends: complete with brand loyalties and scorning those who don't comply with the fashion trends.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RJM

wil

UNeyeR1
Moderator
Messages
23,165
Reaction score
2,657
Points
108
Location
a figment of your imagination
Is not all gender expression a fashion trend?

Boys don't play with dolls....says the parent.

Girls don't talk like that ...says grandma.

You can't wear that to school...says teacher.

All of those statements come from societal norms (fashion trends)

I think we get too wrapped up in the trend that is going on in OUR mind and then demand it in others under the guise of the fashion trend, manners, our expectations, the law, common sense, morality, or some religious scripture....we will grasp at whatever branch we can find to turn it into a switch and enforce our views on others.
 

RJM

God Feeds the Ravens
Admin
Messages
9,283
Reaction score
2,194
Points
108
@wil
And there will always be charlatans and unscrupulous characters pushing snake-oil products?
 
Last edited:
Top