Angels & Demons: Do they really exist?

['Amir Alzzalam]

I couldn't have explained it better. Being a Neurotheologist (yes, I have a tiny degree in Neurotheology), I found Frater Sorath's narrative to be spot on and working hand in hand with my Sinisterist philosophy. I would like to add, and this is something I go into detail in my grimoire I am writing, that neuroscience has made significant progress in learning how and why our brain and mind designs and interacts with these spiritual creatures.

Great Food for Thoth!

 

[RJM]

Saved to watch later

 

[Yahweh kid]

I believe there are angels and demons. I understand that demons are being experienced more often than angels. If a person has never experienced this phenomena he will probably not accept the idea that angels and demons are real.

 

[wil]

I believe there are angels and demons. I understand that demons are being experienced more often than angels. If a person has never experienced this phenomena he will probably not accept the idea that angels and demons are real.

Do we know what phenomena we experience versus what perceive to experience.?

In the hospital ICU I experienced quite a number of hallucinations that are quite Vivid and cemented into my memory. While I was viewing them I was explaining what I was seeing or feeling my family in real time. They told me no there is no crawling out of the block work another time that my arms were not covered with bugs yet another that the wallpaper was not replaced by Arabic writing. I know that it was explained to me that they were hallucinations but they seem very seem very real

I can easily see how people would perceive demons for Angels but I don't take their hallucinations as truth

 

[Yahweh kid]

Do we know what phenomena we experience versus what perceive to experience.?

That's the problem....

 

[Cino]

That's the problem....

How do you personally deal with this? Has it ever come up in your own experience?

I personally like the quip by Philipp K. Dick, how "reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away". It's not 100% watertight, and presumes good mental health, but I like to use it as a yardstick.

 

[Cino]

I understand that demons are being experienced more often than angels.

Hm. Projection, perhaps? I've spoken with people who see a demon behind every bush, but frankly, they were people who had a lot of personal issues they would not confront. I have a hunch they were starting to see these personal issues everywhere except in themselves...

 

[Millerdog]

That's the problem....

But something good usually bears good fruit. Seeing might be believing but shouldn't end there

 

[Vasu Devan]

Hm. Projection, perhaps? I've spoken with people who see a demon behind every bush, but frankly, they were people who had a lot of personal issues they would not confront. I have a hunch they were starting to see these personal issues everywhere except in themselves...

The human brain by default focuses on the negative. Probably an evolutionary factor since the hunter who focused on the thrill of the hunt had less chance of surviving than the ones who listened for sounds in the bush.

By default, we tend to worry about the what-ifs of uncertain situations. Worry serves no real useful purpose as far as I know. We dislike the sensation of fear, learning to fear the fear itself which leads to nasty feedback loops. But we CAN retrain the brain, no? Perhaps solely among the creatures on the Earth, we can imagine an alternate reality than the one we experience in the Now and be guided by that.

When I had serious psychosis, fear was always its trigger. After my parents told me I was becoming psychotic(I never knew till they told), I would worry over potential 'what-if-i-become/do' situations and looping of fear along with the jibes of the voice in my head that made me argue or beg that voice until the stress reached a point where I would switch off my mind, become unconscious mind(but not body) and go around raving or attempting self-harm. That was the case until another voice suggested I not try fight/flight methods. So instead of attacking it or begging it to leave me, I simply watched my mind when it occurred the next time. Essentially meditated during it. There were very strong physical effects when I tried this. From shortness of breath to strong twisting of limbs and spine(was lying on a bed at the time). The mental fear was incredibly intense but I just watched. But after about 5 mins of that, that fear transformed into pure joy, the voice essentially said "Thanks bro!" and never led me to unconscious/violent psychosis while I was conscious again. Psychosis is still happens for me but no longer violent and only occurs in my sleep.i.e. sleep walking or sleep utterances.

Fear actually became an enjoyable state then thanks to the strong adrenaline rush. Nowadays, I almost long for it sometimes, just to feel a rush in my mundane life. But the lesson taught me that all fear can be faced and is possibly the key to defeating its control over me. I still practice relatively regular daily meditation which sometimes, but quite rarely now, still manifest a physical remnant of the old fear.i.e. rapid gut clenches that I am not consciously making

 

[Cino]

Interesting, @Vasu Devan. And good to know that you're better.

 

[Thomas]

I personally like the quip by Philipp K. Dick, how "reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away". It's not 100% watertight, and presumes good mental health, but I like to use it as a yardstick.

When I was studying Buddhist meditation, the question came up of 'mystical experience' while meditating.

It was mostly dismissed as tricks of the mind. Things to be ignored. The final advice came, that if it is something other than your mind playing tricks, it will make itself known ... still a tricky one, much like Dick's yardstick.

 

[Cino]

When I was studying Buddhist meditation, the question came up of 'mystical experience' while meditating.

It was mostly dismissed as tricks of the mind. Things to be ignored. The final advice came, that if it is something other than your mind playing tricks, it will make itself known ... still a tricky one, much like Dick's yardstick.

Yes... what does this mean in the context of the question whether angels and demons exist?

On one hand, in the context of Buddhist meditation, aimed at realizing "ultimate Truth", any specific content of the field of experience, be it an itch on the nose or a vision of lights and faces, heavenly beings or demons, deep thoughts on the meaning of this or that, must be considered "not it". Depending on the meditation method in use, such experiences of "content" can be observed or examined for their tell-tale characteristics: impermanence, emptiness (of any essence), and "suffering" (dukkha). Such "content" can be physically "real" - the wind in one's face or the cramp in one's buttocks-, or if not physically real, they can still be causal (such as worrying thoughts causing the heart to beat faster) - and it all doesn't matter in the context of such a meditation, it is all simply scenery, which can be entertaining for a while (or not, depending on the meditation school) but should not lead the meditator astray from the task at hand (as defined by the meditation teacher).

On the other hand, in the context of our everyday lives, the Philipp K. Dick yardstick is quite useful, I think, given the qualifications I mentioned above. Further, this is the context of deciding the reality of angels and demons, which if present are very much part of the "content" of our lived experience, and decidedly not "ultimate reality".

All of the above is my opinion, reflecting what I have learned about Buddhist meditation from my teachers and my practice, but without any claim to being the only or even just a correct way of meditating.

 

[Thomas]

Yes... what does this mean in the context of the question whether angels and demons exist?

Million dollar question.

The Buddhist pantheon certainly has its version. Or is that vision?

A favoured artist of mine, Bill Viola, visited a gallery/museum/temple (not sure) where there was a display of Buddhist demonic statuary. "Where do they all come from?" He asked, and the Buddhist guide tapped his chest.

If you get into the Self realising Itself in all forms, the Multiple States of Being, then you get hierarchies with regard to the particular human state.

On one hand, in the context of Buddhist meditation, aimed at realizing "ultimate Truth", any specific content of the field of experience, be it an itch on the nose or a vision of lights and faces, heavenly beings or demons, deep thoughts on the meaning of this or that, must be considered "not it".

But are they necessarily 'it' or an intermediate/intermediary?

it is all simply scenery, which can be entertaining for a while (or not, depending on the meditation school) but should not lead the meditator astray from the task at hand (as defined by the meditation teacher).

Yep.

On the other hand, in the context of our everyday lives, the Philipp K. Dick yardstick is quite useful, I think, given the qualifications I mentioned above. Further, this is the context of deciding the reality of angels and demons, which if present are very much part of the "content" of our lived experience, and decidedly not "ultimate reality".

All of the above is my opinion, reflecting what I have learned about Buddhist meditation from my teachers and my practice, but without any claim to being the only or even just a correct way of meditating.

Makes sense to me.

 

[Cino]

But are they necessarily 'it' or an intermediate/intermediary

As I understand the Buddhist meditation technique, any intermediary would still exhibit impermanence, emptiness, and suffering, when examined closely, hence, squarely in the domain of "content of experience", not fundamentally different from any other part of experience.

The Buddhist pantheon certainly has its version. Or is that vision?

I think the technical term is usually translated as "view". In Theravada, Right View is viewing phenomena in terms of the 4 noble truths (suffering, its origin, its cessation, and the path leading to cessation). Other schools have variations of this theme, such as the one I outlined previously, "two truths" (content of experience vs ultimate truth).

A favoured artist of mine, Bill Viola, visited a gallery/museum/temple (not sure) where there was a display of Buddhist demonic statuary. "Where do they all come from?" He asked, and the Buddhist guide tapped his chest.

If you get into the Self realising Itself in all forms, the Multiple States of Being, then you get hierarchies with regard to the particular human state.

There is endless fun in "dependent origination". Or endless suffering, depending on conditions. Buddhist humor: "it all depends..."