My difference with the teaching of Bahaollah

[Aupmanyav]

1. That he was a theist but provided no evidence of existence of God.
2. He wanted people to believe in one God and not many. He has given no proof for his contention.
3. He claimed to be a manifestation or God but gave no solid evidence of why we should accept his claim.
4. He interfered with all the major religions of the world and called them corrupted.
5. He wanted people to believe in prophecies, which is silly, and claimed that he fulfilled the prophecies of all religions, which is even more silly.
6. He credited a God to be the creator of the universe, again no evidence as to why his God may have desired the creation of the universe and how he did it with his magic wand.
7. He was unfair to LGBTQ and wanted abstinence from them.
8. He was unfair to women and did not consider them to be fit for positions of importance.
9. He wanted all people to accept him as a messenger of God.
10. His plan included establishment of a militia which will straighten out those who would not accept his dominion.

 

[Cino]

Point 10 is new to me, do you have some pointers?

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Point 10 is new to me, do you have some pointers?

It's not true, way out if context.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

8. He was unfair to women and did not consider them to be fit for positions of importance

In fact, the opposite, as the Message about the equality of women and men given by the Bab and Baha'u'llah was very progressive for Muslims and for may other places in the world, including India in the 1800's.

This is really beyond any debate, history proves how progressive the Message was.

One needs to read about Tahirih, a disciples of the Bab to show how radical a change it was for many peoples. Tahirih gave her life for the progress of Women and Persia lost a Woman of great talents and vision.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

1. That he was a theist but provided no evidence of existence of God.
2. He wanted people to believe in one God and not many. He has given no proof for his contention.
3. He claimed to be a manifestation or God but gave no solid evidence of why we should accept his claim.
4. He interfered with all the major religions of the world and called them corrupted.
5. He wanted people to believe in prophecies, which is silly, and claimed that he fulfilled the prophecies of all religions, which is even more silly.
6. He credited a God to be the creator of the universe, again no evidence as to why his God may have desired the creation of the universe and how he did it with his magic wand.

Well that would be because you do not accept there is a God.

Otherwise, all the bases are covered, with volumes of quotes available. But we do not need to go there again.

One must be worried how influential the Message of Baha’u’llah will become.

Regards Tony

 

[Aupmanyav]

They are not allowed a membership in your House of Justice.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

They are not allowed a membership in your House of Justice.

They have been exempted from this service, yes.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

4. He interfered with all the major religions of the world and called them corrupted.

This answers that in detail, as I have offered, the Baha'i Writings answer many issues.

“Let no one, however, mistake my purpose. The Revelation, of which Bahá’u’lláh is the source and center, abrogates none of the religions that have preceded it, nor does it attempt, in the slightest degree, to distort their features or to belittle their value. It disclaims any intention of dwarfing any of the Prophets of the past, or of whittling down the eternal verity of their teachings. It can, in no wise, conflict with the spirit that animates their claims, nor does it seek to undermine the basis of any man’s allegiance to their cause. Its declared, its primary purpose is to enable every adherent of these Faiths to obtain a fuller understanding of the religion with which he stands identified, and to acquire a clearer apprehension of its purpose. It is neither eclectic in the presentation of its truths, nor arrogant in the affirmation of its claims. Its teachings revolve around the fundamental principle that religious truth is not absolute but relative, that Divine Revelation is progressive, not final. Unequivocally and without the least reservation it proclaims all established religions to be divine in origin, identical in their aims, complementary in their functions, continuous in their purpose, indispensable in their value to mankind.”
The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh, pp, 57-58

Regards Tony

 

[Aupmanyav]

Point 10 is new to me, do you have some pointers?

Shoghi thought that will be necessary when Bahai order is established to control opposition. Bahai members may give links to the statement.

 

[Cino]

Shoghi thought that will be necessary when Bahai order is established to control opposition. Bahai members may give links to the statement.

Thanks, I didn't know that.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Shoghi thought that will be necessary when Bahai order is established to control opposition. Bahai members may give links to the statement.

Never heard or read of that. Maybe it is a misunderstanding of this passage.

"The unity of the human race, as envisaged by Baha’u’llah, implies the establishment of a world commonwealth in which all nations, races, creeds and classes are closely and permanently united, and in which the autonomy of its state members and the personal freedom and initiative of the individuals that compose them are definitely and completely safeguarded. This commonwealth must, as far as we can visualize it, consist of a world legislature, whose members will, as the trustees of the whole of mankind, ultimately control the entire resources of all the component nations, and will enact such laws as shall be required to regulate the life, satisfy the needs and adjust the relationships of all races and peoples. A world executive, backed by an international Force, will carry out the decisions arrived at, and apply the laws enacted by, this world legislature, and will safeguard the organic unity of the whole commonwealth." – Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha’u’llah, p. 203.

I see this is the foundation of the Lesser Peace, which will be founded and be under the rule of the Nations and not the Baha'i. In a more distant future, that will most likely pave way to the Establishment of the Most Great Peace.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Thanks, I didn't know that.

Because it is not correct, I told you that?

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

Its declared, its primary purpose is to enable every adherent of these Faiths to obtain a fuller understanding of the religion with which he stands identified, and to acquire a clearer apprehension of its purpose

People should be taught how to understand their own religions, in accordance with Baha'i thinking?

Revelation is progressive, not final.

Yet the Baha'i rights of women, regarded as progressive at the time of Baha'u'llah, are now forever fixed by his decree of a reduced status unacceptable to secular democracy?

The rate of world change is exponential. Look at computer and space progress. 1000 years might be a bit too long to wait for a new divine messenger?

Unequivocally and without the least reservation it proclaims all established religions to be divine in origin, identical in their aims, complementary in their functions, continuous in their purpose, indispensable in their value to mankind.”

As long as the practitioners of those 'established' religions agree to agree with Baha'i declarations regarding them?

They have been exempted from this service, yes.

Regards Tony

Are they grateful though?

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Are they grateful though?

Some would be, some might no be, some it would not matter, my wife being one of those.

I can say, I see it is a great bounty, as it enables one to serve the faith in many other full time capacities.

It is hard for people to understand this concept in a world competing for rank and honour, there is no rank in the Baha'i Faith, just many opportunities to serve and many women will be appointed to serve in the other appointed arms of the Faith.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

People should be taught how to understand their own religions, in accordance with Baha'i thinking?

In accordance with what their own scriptures do teach.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Yet the Baha'i rights of women, regarded as progressive at the time of Baha'u'llah, are now forever fixed by his decree of a reduced status unacceptable to secular democracy?

Relative to the country you live in would you no agree?

I bet there are billions of Women still waiting for the Bounty found in the Baha'i Writings for women.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

As long as the practitioners of those 'established' religions agree to agree with Baha'i declarations regarding them?

It is in Prophecy that the leaders onariins and religions of the world will decide this and in the process discover what is in the Baha'i Writings, at the moment most people are ignorant of what is contained within the Message of Baha’u’llah.

I been reading it for 39 years and have not scratched rhe surface.

There is yet a time to come when the leaders of religion realise the potential of the faith, it is then the opposition will really start. We have not seen that opposition yet.

Regards Tony

 

[Aupmanyav]

I been reading it for 39 years and have not scratched the surface.

If so, then humans will never understand the message of Bahaollah. Clearly, he failed in his mission. Why did he make it so lengthy? 17,000 'tablets' apart from the books? And on top of it writings by his son, great grandson, your House of Justice and various other Bahai personages!

 

[Thomas]

... nor does it attempt, in the slightest degree, to distort their features or to belittle their value....

It patently does, by declaring that the New Testament has been corrupted, and the doctrines founded thereon are false.

... nor does it seek to undermine the basis of any man’s allegiance to their cause.

Yes it does.

... its primary purpose is to enable every adherent of these Faiths to obtain a fuller understanding of the religion with which he stands identified, and to acquire a clearer apprehension of its purpose.

By 'fuller understanding' and 'clearer apprehension' means the Baha'i understanding.

Its teachings revolve around the fundamental principle that religious truth is not absolute but relative

Here it's metaphysically in error. Religious 'Truth' is absolute in the sense that it enables the faithful to attain to that which it speaks. The exoteric eye sees these truths as relative, conditioned by time, place, human understanding, etc ... the esoteric eye sees the timeless and eternal truth transmitted in the world's sacra doctrina.

... that Divine Revelation is progressive, not final...

Another metaphysical error. For 'those with the eye to see', Revelation is not constrained in any way. You're applying a temporal condition to the Divine activity.

 

[RJM]

It seems to me that every new religion or cult since Jesus Christ relies upon interpreting Jesus in some way or another. Jesus is always a prime reference. They all seem to need to piggyback on Jesus.

There's never been a shortage of self declared new messiahs, and they will always keep appearing.

Jesus is good currency in the messiah game. It's easier than coming up with something original and different, lol

"For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many." (Matthew 24:5)