My issue with Urantia

Thomas

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According to Dr Sadler, The Urantia Book (UB hereafter) was 'complete and certified' in 1935.

However, Ernest Moyer (a believer) has carefully documented that Dr. Sadler indeed made changes to the text after this date. So either the 'sources' are not infallible, or he found errors in their transmissions.

Matthew Block (another believer), documents the human texts woven into the UB and moreover texts incorporated after its supposed 'sign-off', one such being a text incorporated word perfect 7 years later.

Changes continued to be made up to at least 1955.

The point here is that the book, supposedly signed-off by its superhuman sources, still contained errors and omissions which were subject to later, human revision. It sees then that human hands were required to correct superhuman errors in the text.

Suffice to say therefore, that regardless of the source, the integrity of this “revelation” is not entirely trustworthy.

Now, as a Christian, where does that leave me?

Dr. Sadler states that the information imparted through the “sleeping subject” was 'essentially Christian.'

However, it's demonstrably clear that UB is essentially anti-Christian in that it denies or distorts almost every fundamental doctrine of the Christian faith. The only way it can be claimed to be Christian is if one ignores the Bible itself ... and as the Bible is the only source, then UB is logically self-refuting.

UB has Jesus declaring to Nathaniel, “the Scriptures are faulty and altogether human in origin” (UB, 159.4.3).
The description of Scripture as 'altogether human' is a fundamental rejection of Abrahamic Revelation in its entirety, of both the Hebrew Scriptures as well as the New Testament. It rejects the biblical view of God, Christ, man, sin, and salvation, sacraments, the eschaton. It espouses polytheism – in some ways pseudo-Arian, although that does a disservice to Arius (And Bock, elsewhere, refutes the claim of Arianism, displaying a faulty understanding of Arian doctrine.) “Gods” capitalised appears in numerous places.

While acknowledging one supreme God, it polytheism, according to a critic, “puts Greek and Hindu mythology to shame.” And suffice to say, don't start me on its 'Trinity of Trinities' which evidences a staggering lack of spiritual or metaphysical insight.

The virgin birth is rejected, rather, He is presented as the incarnation of Michael of Nebadon, the creator of our universe and one of “more than 700,000 Creator Sons of the Eternal Son.” This clearly conflicts with the New Testament’s view of Jesus, the Biblical Creation, Eden, the Serpent, the Fall and Biblical angelology.

All in all the UB proclaims a different God, a different Jesus, and a different Gospel from that of the Bible. Its message, allegedly revealed by higher spiritual beings, is absolutely and fundamentally at odds with biblical Christianity.

Reflecting on Scripture, we read:
"Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons," (1 Timothy 4:1)

"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. (1 John 4:1)

"And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray." (Matthew 24:11)

"For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds." (2 Corinthians 11:13-15)

Now, whether these are human words, or divine advice, they make good common sense ... and this much I know:
Truth is incapable of error, and those who speak in truth are incapable of error, so, if there are errors in the UB which appear to come from the very sources themselves (indeed errors which Sadler and his co-workers sought to cover) then the sources are not infallible.

So where there are errors, there is darkness, either the darkness of ignorance, or the greater and more unsettling darkness of deception ...

Whichever, the sources and the human co-workers cannot be trusted.

Dr. Sadler once wrote that if there was anything supernatural about mediumistic phenomena, it was probably demonic. But when he actually encountered such phenomena at first hand, it appears he fell under its glamour.

Lastly, this:
Ernest Moyer offers an intriguing thesis in "The Origin of the Urantia Papers”.

He offers Dr Sadler as the "contact personality”, but argues he's not the “sleeping subject” and furthmore argues that neither is Kellogg, whom many people think is. Much of his work exposes 'corruptions' to the text of the UB between 1939 and 1942, both in content and source.

Here's an interesting thing:
Sadler's wife, Lena, died in 1939. By this time, the activity of the 'sleeping subject' had ceased, leaving him without a connection to 'divine advice'.
Was Lena then, his muse, the sleeping subject?

Moyer argues that something happened after the last of the papers was delivered in 1935. Sadler himself mentions a “third series” of revelations, being some clarifications that appear to have entered the text between 1939 and 1942.

By now the editorial team is Sadler, an unknown number of people supposedly witnesses of the 'sleeping subject' (and if the subject was a psychiatric patient, this is a violation of human rights) and the Forum, some 400 strong!

Enter Christy – Emma Christensen – the adopted daughter of the Sadlers. She began to claim contact with spiritual beings who wished to deliver further clarifications to the revelation!

Moyer claims Christy was a 'bad channeler', that her revelations were more likely sourced from her own subconscious, and that she was responsible for 'corruptions' creeping into the text. In her materials a midwestern conservative sensibility of the revealing supernatural being shines forth!

Add to this intermediaries between the human and higher realms, necessary because the higher realms cannot make themselves intelligible to the human sphere and we have so many laters of redaction ...
 

LuisMarco

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According to Dr Sadler, The Urantia Book (UB hereafter) was 'complete and certified' in 1935.

However, Ernest Moyer (a believer) has carefully documented that Dr. Sadler indeed made changes to the text after this date. So either the 'sources' are not infallible, or he found errors in their transmissions.

Yes, completed and certified, and also a third presentation of URANTIA before its publication in october 1955, but not through the good revelatiors: the third one was by the devil, totally documented by ernest moyer in his book: http://ubannotated.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/MoyerBirthRev.pdf (from: http://ubannotated.com/main-menu/animated/history-of-the-urantia-book/)

sadler might have never done any changes to the text of URANTIA with his adopted daughter ‘christy’ except through the channeling they did with the devil (we don't have fear to call it like/as it is) in the approximate time of the ‘third presentation’ of The Urantia Papers, again documented by moyer; the URANTIA celestial authors/revelators never claim this divine revelation to be infallible (we can see the ‘errors’ are due to the hand of the devil circa 1939 or after 1939); examples:
7:5.7 The bestowals of the Eternal Son in Havona are not within the scope of human imagination; they were transcendental. He added to the experience of all Havona then and subsequently, but we do not know whether he added to the supposed experiential capacity of his existential nature. That would fall within the bestowal mystery of the Paradise Sons. We do, however, believe that whatever the Eternal Son acquired on these bestowal missions, he has ever since retained; but we do not know what it is.
9:6.8 The mind-gravity circuit is dependable; it emanates from the Third Person of Deity on Paradise, but not all the observable function of mind is predictable. Throughout all known creation there parallels this circuit of mind some little-understood presence whose function is not predictable. We believe that this unpredictability is partly attributable to the function of the Universal Absolute. What this function is, we do not know; what actuates it, we can only conjecture; concerning its relation to creatures, we can only speculate.
etc.

there’s dated science in URANTIA, although already acknowledged by its revelators at 101:4.2.

URANTIA was NOT spiritually channeled: the revelators even are against it (as they call it, 'spiritualism', 'mediumship'):
(865.5) 77:8.12 Many of the more literal phenomena ascribed to angels have been performed by the secondary midway creatures. When the early teachers of the gospel of Jesus were thrown into prison by the ignorant religious leaders of that day, an actual “angel of the Lord” “by night opened the prison doors and brought them forth.” But in the case of Peter’s deliverance after the killing of James by Herod’s order, it was a secondary midwayer who performed the work ascribed to an angel.
77:8.13 Their chief work today is that of unperceived personal-liaison associates of those men and women who constitute the planetary reserve corps of destiny. It was the work of this secondary group, ably seconded by certain of the primary corps, that brought about the co-ordination of personalities and circumstances on Urantia which finally induced the planetary celestial supervisors to initiate those petitions that resulted in the granting of the mandates making possible the series of revelations of which this presentation is a part. But it should be made clear that the midway creatures are not involved in the sordid performances taking place under the general designation of "spiritualism." The midwayers at present on Urantia, all of whom are of honorable standing, are not connected with the phenomena of so-called "mediumship"; and they do not, ordinarily, permit humans to witness their sometimes necessary physical activities or other contacts with the material world, as they are perceived by human senses.
to be continued...
 
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Thomas

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... the third one was by the devil, totally documented by ernest moyer in his book ...
Is Moyer's thesis that demonic intervention the explanation of all the questions the accepted norm now?

URANTIA was NOT spiritually channeled: the revelators even are against it (as they call it, 'spiritualism', 'mediumship'):
to be continued...
I didn't say spiritually channeled, I said channeled. I think the book is a product of the human mind, spun from a variety of human sources which have been well-documented.

By any understanding of the term channeled, this is channeling – the descriptions of the 'sleeping subject' are bang-on channeling.
 

LuisMarco

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Is Moyer's thesis that demonic intervention the explanation of all the questions the accepted norm now?
nobody is telling you or imposing upon you that his book documenting the hand of the devil around and with URANTIA is the 'accepted norm now'; he did his homework as i and a few others have; you haven't.
I didn't say spiritually channeled, I said channeled. I think the book is a product of the human mind, spun from a variety of human sources which have been well-documented.

By any understanding of the term channeled, this is channeling – the descriptions of the 'sleeping subject' are bang-on channeling.
your definition of human mind channels is totally wrong, it doesn't even exist according to the wikipedia: it always involves 'spirits' or the 'higher self' (spiritually).

no: before you make a statement patently false again, document what you claim, because the so-called sleeping subject was not the origin of supposed 'human' revelations: URANTIA was created by spiritual beings (some of them divine), but by another and different process and method.

now, before i continue with the rest of your op above, why don't you explain now the huge contradictions in the Bible, and why they are there if it's totally divine and infallible:
'Are the Gospels Historically Reliable? The Problem of Contradictions': bart ehrman, phd.
as the URANTIA book says quoting JESUS:
159:4.6 "The thing most deplorable is not merely this erroneous idea of the absolute perfection of the Scripture record and the infallibility of its teachings, but rather the confusing misinterpretation of these sacred writings by the tradition-enslaved scribes and Pharisees at Jerusalem. And now will they employ both the doctrine of the inspiration of the Scriptures and their misinterpretations thereof in their determined effort to withstand these newer teachings of the gospel of the kingdom. Nathaniel, never forget, the Father does not limit the revelation of truth to any one generation or to any one people. Many earnest seekers after the truth have been, and will continue to be, confused and disheartened by these doctrines of the perfection of the Scriptures.
159:4.8 "Mark you well my words, Nathaniel, nothing which human nature has touched can be regarded as infallible. Through the mind of man divine truth may indeed shine forth, but always of relative purity and partial divinity. The creature may crave infallibility, but only the Creators possess it.
 
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Thomas

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nobody is telling you or imposing upon you that his book documenting the hand of the devil around and with URANTIA is the 'accepted norm now';
OK. Just wondering if it was, or not.
your definition of human mind channels is totally wrong, it doesn't even exist according to the wikipedia: it always involves 'spirits' or the 'higher self' (spiritually).
According to that wiki article:
"Channeling
A conduit ... which allows a person to connect or communicate with a spiritual realm, metaphysical energy, or spiritual entity, or vice versa."

Explain where I'm wrong, as this seems to be what Sadler claims for 'the sleeping subject'?

because the so-called sleeping subject was not the origin of supposed 'human' revelations: URANTIA was created by spiritual beings (some of them divine), but by another and different process and method.
OK. What method is that?
 

Thomas

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now, before i continue with the rest of your op above, why don't you explain now the huge contradictions in the Bible, and why they are there if it's totally divine and infallible
Ah ... you're probably labouring under the popular American ideology concerning the text.

The idea that the Bible is literally infallible pops up every now and then, but its current claim to inerrancy rests largely on the insistence of various American evangelicals. It was a common belief in Sadler's day, but it's never been asserted with such rigorous and overtly literal fundamentalism.

As for Dr Ehrman's thesis, while I admire his scholarship, I do not accept all his conclusions. Suffice to say he represents one extreme, as it were, of a broad range of studies (in fact he moved from one polar extreme to the other, a not uncommon transit). If you wan't me to discuss particular issues, I'm glad to do so ... but you link to an Ehrman video above, I could link to an N.T Wright counterpoint. Suffice to say, I favour Weright more than I favour Ehrman, although I enjoy them both, if not quite equally.

Either way, I would not take Urantia's comments in Paper 159 as 'gospel' ;) the paper says more to me about it's human author and certain views on Scripture common to the era.

But let's stop here ... this dialogue, such as it is, is going nowhere.

If you want to discuss any of Ehrman's ideas, I'm open to do so.
 

LuisMarco

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OK. Just wondering if it was, or not.

According to that wiki article:
"Channeling
A conduit ... which allows a person to connect or communicate with a spiritual realm, metaphysical energy, or spiritual entity, or vice versa."

Explain where I'm wrong, as this seems to be what Sadler claims for 'the sleeping subject'?
oh yes you are wrong again; reread your wikipedia; sadler never claims 'this' for the sleeping subject; what are you even talking about¿
OK. What method is that?
i've already stated what method is that; here it is:
 

LuisMarco

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Either way, I would not take Urantia's comments in Paper 159 as 'gospel' ;) the paper says more to me about it's human author and certain views on Scripture common to the era.

But let's stop here ... this dialogue, such as it is, is going nowhere.

If you want to discuss any of Ehrman's ideas, I'm open to do so.
remember, URANTIA is beyong the time it was created, with far more and better real revelations than you will and can ever imagine.
so is the Bible inerrant and infallible and perfect or not¿
illustrate us, be our guest.
 

LuisMarco

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Matthew Block (another believer), documents the human texts woven into the UB and moreover texts incorporated after its supposed 'sign-off', one such being a text incorporated word perfect 7 years later.
block is not a believer since decades ago (you seem to know what is false actually ah¿); so what text 'word perfect 7 years later' into URANTIA are you even talking about¿, help us so we can explain it, illustrate us.
Changes continued to be made up to at least 1955.
yes and here's why:
The point here is that the book, supposedly signed-off by its superhuman sources, still contained errors and omissions which were subject to later, human revision. It sees then that human hands were required to correct superhuman errors in the text.
the devil used humans to introduce corruptions into the URANTIA text, not to correct them (the corrections are in the bold link just above): read book the birth of a divine revelation: the origin of the URANTIA papers by moyer... or don't.
Suffice to say therefore, that regardless of the source, the integrity of this “revelation” is not entirely trustworthy.
URANTIA is trustworthy beyond anybody can imagine...
Dr. Sadler states that the information imparted through the “sleeping subject” was 'essentially Christian.'
yes, and you then say sadler produced URANTIA tru his subsconscious; aren't you contradicting yourself again and again¿
However, it's demonstrably clear that UB is essentially anti-Christian in that it denies or distorts almost every fundamental doctrine of the Christian faith. The only way it can be claimed to be Christian is if one ignores the Bible itself ... and as the Bible is the only source, then UB is logically self-refuting.
you are self-refuting yourself, since URANTIA and christianity are very in accord with one another, but URANTIA goes deeper than christianity:
UB has Jesus declaring to Nathaniel, “the Scriptures are faulty and altogether human in origin” (UB, 159.4.3).
The description of Scripture as 'altogether human' is a fundamental rejection of Abrahamic Revelation in its entirety, of both the Hebrew Scriptures as well as the New Testament. It rejects the biblical view of God, Christ, man, sin, and salvation, sacraments, the eschaton. It espouses polytheism – in some ways pseudo-Arian, although that does a disservice to Arius (And Bock, elsewhere, refutes the claim of Arianism, displaying a faulty understanding of Arian doctrine.) “Gods” capitalised appears in numerous places.
yes, many doctrines are faulty, false and sordid in the Bible, including the gospels, paul, and so on:
92:7.3 The many religions of Urantia are all good to the extent that they bring man to God and bring the realization of the Father to man. It is a fallacy for any group of religionists to conceive of their creed as The Truth; such attitudes bespeak more of theological arrogance than of certainty of faith. There is not a Urantia religion that could not profitably study and assimilate the best of the truths contained in every other faith, for all contain truth. Religionists would do better to borrow the best in their neighbors' living spiritual faith rather than to denounce the worst in their lingering superstitions and outworn rituals.

While acknowledging one supreme God, it polytheism, according to a critic, “puts Greek and Hindu mythology to shame.” And suffice to say, don't start me on its 'Trinity of Trinities' which evidences a staggering lack of spiritual or metaphysical insight.
no, that's what you say; let's see what URANTIA say: https://www.urantia.org/urantia-book-standardized/paper-106-universe-levels-reality#U106_8_0 ['The Trinity of Trinities']

The virgin birth is rejected, rather, He is presented as the incarnation of Michael of Nebadon, the creator of our universe and one of “more than 700,000 Creator Sons of the Eternal Son.” This clearly conflicts with the New Testament’s view of Jesus, the Biblical Creation, Eden, the Serpent, the Fall and Biblical angelology.
this doesn't contradict anything; it betters all those concepts and corrects them.
All in all the UB proclaims a different God, a different Jesus, and a different Gospel from that of the Bible. Its message, allegedly revealed by higher spiritual beings, is absolutely and fundamentally at odds with biblical Christianity.
195:9.8 The world needs more firsthand religion. Even Christianity — the best of the religions of the twentieth century — is not only a religion about Jesus, but it is so largely one which men experience secondhand. They take their religion wholly as handed down by their accepted religious teachers. What an awakening the world would experience if it could only see Jesus as he really lived on earth and know, firsthand, his life-giving teachings! Descriptive words of things beautiful cannot thrill like the sight thereof, neither can creedal words inspire men's souls like the experience of knowing the presence of God. But expectant faith will ever keep the hope-door of man's soul open for the entrance of the eternal spiritual realities of the divine values of the worlds beyond.

"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. (1 John 4:1)
Test the spirits!: you never tested the spirits of URANTIA...

Truth is incapable of error, and those who speak in truth are incapable of error, so, if there are errors in the UB which appear to come from the very sources themselves (indeed errors which Sadler and his co-workers sought to cover) then the sources are not infallible.
URANTIA claims not to be infallible.
So where there are errors, there is darkness, either the darkness of ignorance, or the greater and more unsettling darkness of deception ...
And the deception of christianity and the old testament¿¿¿, what about them¿¿¿¿¿. there's no deception, deceit, nor lies within URANTIA, except corruptions and evill stuff introduced by the devil.
Whichever, the sources and the human co-workers cannot be trusted.
because you say so¿, but yes, sadler and others were faulty, not all of them though.
Dr. Sadler once wrote that if there was anything supernatural about mediumistic phenomena, it was probably demonic. But when he actually encountered such phenomena at first hand, it appears he fell under its glamour.
no: sadler mainly believed these mediumship phenomena were psychic in origin, frauds and the like; and sadler also said he didn't know if the are possibly diabolic etc:
He offers Dr Sadler as the "contact personality”, but argues he's not the “sleeping subject” and furthmore argues that neither is Kellogg, whom many people think is. Much of his work exposes 'corruptions' to the text of the UB between 1939 and 1942, both in content and source.
yeah.
Here's an interesting thing:
Sadler's wife, Lena, died in 1939. By this time, the activity of the 'sleeping subject' had ceased, leaving him without a connection to 'divine advice'.
Was Lena then, his muse, the sleeping subject?
you can't be farther from the facts: there's no evidences the contact with the sleeping subject was ended after lena's death; or can you document that lena was the sleeping subject¿, illustrate us¿¿¿, and yes sadler was the 'contact personality'.
Moyer argues that something happened after the last of the papers was delivered in 1935. Sadler himself mentions a “third series” of revelations, being some clarifications that appear to have entered the text between 1939 and 1942.
yeah: remember, it was the devil...
By now the editorial team is Sadler, an unknown number of people supposedly witnesses of the 'sleeping subject' (and if the subject was a psychiatric patient, this is a violation of human rights) and the Forum, some 400 strong!
a violation of his human rights how exactly¿, what in the world are you even talking about¿¿¿¿¿
Enter Christy – Emma Christensen – the adopted daughter of the Sadlers. She began to claim contact with spiritual beings who wished to deliver further clarifications to the revelation!
indeed!!!.
Moyer claims Christy was a 'bad channeler', that her revelations were more likely sourced from her own subconscious, and that she was responsible for 'corruptions' creeping into the text. In her materials a midwestern conservative sensibility of the revealing supernatural being shines forth!
yeah, but what do you mean by her midwestern conservative sensibility of the revealing supernatural being shines forth'¿¿¿, it seems you are just saying this just because, right¿
Add to this intermediaries between the human and higher realms, necessary because the higher realms cannot make themselves intelligible to the human sphere and we have so many laters of redaction ...
many layers of redaction eh¿, yes there are midway paths between the Divine and the finite.
and URANTIA reveals that the finitite and the Infinite can be in union and in communion; remember it very well...
 
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wil

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Looking at this thread as a reader, seems there is a plethora of less than admirable debate tactics in use here.

What does a biblical historical accuracy discussion have to do with Urantia?

The thread diversion does not help the discussion, nor do demeaning comments.

Citing Wikipedia as proof of channeling methodology is interesting.
 

Thomas

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Citing Wikipedia as proof of channeling methodology is interesting.
I did wonder why this is such a hot issue – Perhaps because others have subsequently declared that they are channels of continuing revelation, so the denial of channeling is a means of refuting their claims? No doubt @LuisMarco can correct me.

As for channeling itself, it's endorsed ion the Urantia Book itself, so it can hardly be denied:
Paper 3 - The Attributes of God
3:1:6 (45.4) Hence must the concept of the divine presence allow for a wide range of both mode and channel of manifestation...

Paper 7 - Relation of the Eternal Son to the Universe
7:6:7 (88.5) Between the Original Mother Son and these hosts of Paradise Sons scattered throughout all creation, there is a direct and exclusive channel of communication, a channel whose function is inherent in the quality of spiritual kinship which unites them in bonds of near-absolute spiritual association.

Paper 7 - Relation of the Eternal Son to the Universe
7:3:3 (84.3) The spirit-gravity circuit is the basic channel for transmitting ...

Paper 17 - The Seven Supreme Spirit Groups
17:0:11 (197.11) ... they reveal themselves through the channel of the Reflective Spirits ...

Paper 17 - The Seven Supreme Spirit Groups
17:4:1 (202.1) They are true images and constantly function as the channel of communication ...

Paper 28 - Ministering Spirits of the Superuniverses
28:5:19 (313.1) Regardless of the source or channel of information ...

Paper 36 - The Life Carriers
36:6:7 (404.5) It is more than possible that the Master Spirits are the sevenfold channel of the river of life which is poured out upon all creation.

Paper 39 - The Seraphic Hosts
39:2:16 (431.5) ... constant communication ... through this channel ...

Paper 56 - Universal Unity
56:2:2 (638.6) Mind is the indispensable channel of communication between spiritual and material realities.
 

LuisMarco

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I did wonder why this is such a hot issue – Perhaps because others have subsequently declared that they are channels of continuing revelation, so the denial of channeling is a means of refuting their claims? No doubt @LuisMarco can correct me.
Yes i can, because @Thomas is wrong once again in his argument; quoting URANTIA out of context, where 'channeling' in his quotes have nothing to do with the 'spiritual channeling' concept we are discussing here: URANTIA was not channeled spiritually, though some of us admit there is a general similarity to 'spiritual channeling', though still not the same in most of its general process of origin and production...
As for channeling itself, it's endorsed ion the Urantia Book itself, so it can hardly be denied:
URANTIA does not endorse spiritual channeling; Thomas again discards and ignores my previous URANTIA quote where its celestial revelators claim explicitly that spiritual channeling is a sordid performance (with the devil and so), and 'spiritual channeling' ---called that since modern times--- is exactly the same as its original names of 'Spiritualism'/'mediumship' ('spiritism' is a concept/movement derivation from 'spiritualism' etc); see for youselves:
77:8.12 Many of the more literal phenomena ascribed to angels have been performed by the secondary midway creatures. When the early teachers of the gospel of Jesus were thrown into prison by the ignorant religious leaders of that day, an actual “angel of the Lord” “by night opened the prison doors and brought them forth.” But in the case of Peter’s deliverance after the killing of James by Herod’s order, it was a secondary midwayer who performed the work ascribed to an angel.
77:8.13 Their chief work today is that of unperceived personal-liaison associates of those men and women who constitute the planetary reserve corps of destiny. It was the work of this secondary group, ably seconded by certain of the primary corps, that brought about the co-ordination of personalities and circumstances on Urantia which finally induced the planetary celestial supervisors to initiate those petitions that resulted in the granting of the mandates making possible the series of revelations of which this presentation is a part. But it should be made clear that the midway creatures are not involved in the sordid performances taking place under the general designation of "spiritualism." The midwayers at present on Urantia, all of whom are of honorable standing, are not connected with the phenomena of so-called "mediumship"; and they do not, ordinarily, permit humans to witness their sometimes necessary physical activities or other contacts with the material world, as they are perceived by human senses.

Paper 3 - The Attributes of God
3:1:6 (45.4) Hence must the concept of the divine presence allow for a wide range of both mode and channel of manifestation...

Paper 7 - Relation of the Eternal Son to the Universe
7:6:7 (88.5) Between the Original Mother Son and these hosts of Paradise Sons scattered throughout all creation, there is a direct and exclusive channel of communication, a channel whose function is inherent in the quality of spiritual kinship which unites them in bonds of near-absolute spiritual association.

Paper 7 - Relation of the Eternal Son to the Universe
7:3:3 (84.3) The spirit-gravity circuit is the basic channel for transmitting ...

Paper 17 - The Seven Supreme Spirit Groups
17:0:11 (197.11) ... they reveal themselves through the channel of the Reflective Spirits ...

Paper 17 - The Seven Supreme Spirit Groups
17:4:1 (202.1) They are true images and constantly function as the channel of communication ...

Paper 28 - Ministering Spirits of the Superuniverses
28:5:19 (313.1) Regardless of the source or channel of information ...

Paper 36 - The Life Carriers
36:6:7 (404.5) It is more than possible that the Master Spirits are the sevenfold channel of the river of life which is poured out upon all creation.

Paper 39 - The Seraphic Hosts
39:2:16 (431.5) ... constant communication ... through this channel ...

Paper 56 - Universal Unity
56:2:2 (638.6) Mind is the indispensable channel of communication between spiritual and material realities.
the URANTIA quotes above, as we said, out of contexct, are better understood quoted in ther entirety:
3:1.6 (45.4) The omnipresence of God is in reality a part of his infinite nature; space constitutes no barrier to Deity. God is, in perfection and without limitation, discernibly present only on Paradise and in the central universe. He is not thus observably present in the creations encircling Havona, for God has limited his direct and actual presence in recognition of the sovereignty and the divine prerogatives of the co-ordinate creators and rulers of the universes of time and space. Hence must the concept of the divine presence allow for a wide range of both mode and channel of manifestation embracing the presence circuits of the Eternal Son, the Infinite Spirit, and the Isle of Paradise. Nor is it always possible to distinguish between the presence of the Universal Father and the actions of his eternal co-ordinates and agencies, so perfectly do they fulfill all the infinite requirements of his unchanging purpose. But not so with the personality circuit and the Adjusters; here God acts uniquely, directly, and exclusively.

7:6.7 (88.5) Between the Original Mother Son and these hosts of Paradise Sons scattered throughout all creation, there is a direct and exclusive channel of communication, a channel whose function is inherent in the quality of spiritual kinship which unites them in bonds of near-absolute spiritual association. This intersonship circuit is entirely different from the universal circuit of spirit gravity, which also centers in the person of the Second Source and Center. All Sons of God who take origin in the persons of the Paradise Deities are in direct and constant communication with the Eternal Mother Son. And such communication is instantaneous; it is independent of time though sometimes conditioned by space.

7:3.3 (84.3) The spirit-gravity circuit is the basic channel for transmitting the genuine prayers of the believing human heart from the level of human consciousness to the actual consciousness of Deity. That which represents true spiritual value in your petitions will be seized by the universal circuit of spirit gravity and will pass immediately and simultaneously to all divine personalities concerned. Each will occupy himself with that which belongs to his personal province. Therefore, in your practical religious experience, it is immaterial whether, in addressing your supplications, you visualize the Creator Son of your local universe or the Eternal Son at the center of all things.

17:0.11 (197.11) The Seven Master Spirits are the co-ordinating directors of this far-flung administrative realm. In some matters pertaining to the administrative regulation of organized physical power, mind energy, and impersonal spirit ministry, they act personally and directly, and in others they function through their multifarious associates. In all matters of an executive nature—rulings, regulations, adjustments, and administrative decisions—the Master Spirits act in the persons of the Seven Supreme Executives. In the central universe the Master Spirits may function through the Seven Spirits of the Havona Circuits; on the headquarters of the seven superuniverses they reveal themselves through the channel of the Reflective Spirits and act through the persons of the Ancients of Days, with whom they are in personal communication through the Reflective Image Aids.

28:5.19 (313.1) 7. The Discerner of Spirits. A special liaison exists between the counselors and advisers of the second Havona circle and these reflective angels. They are the only seconaphim attached to the Universal Censors but are probably the most uniquely specialized of all their fellows. Regardless of the source or channel of information, no matter how meager the evidence at hand, when it is subjected to their reflective scrutiny, these discerners will forthwith inform us as to the true motive, the actual purpose, and the real nature of its origin. I marvel at the superb functioning of these angels, who so unerringly reflect the actual moral and spiritual character of any individual concerned in a focal exposure.

36:6.7 (404.5) There are some things connected with the elaboration of life on the evolutionary planets which are not altogether clear to us. We fully comprehend the physical organization of the electrochemical formulas of the Life Carriers, but we do not wholly understand the nature and source of the life-activation spark. We know that life flows from the Father through the Son and by the Spirit. It is more than possible that the Master Spirits are the sevenfold channel of the river of life which is poured out upon all creation. But we do not comprehend the technique whereby the supervising Master Spirit participates in the initial episode of life bestowal on a new planet. The Ancients of Days, we are confident, also have some part in this inauguration of life on a new world, but we are wholly ignorant of the nature thereof. We do know that the Universe Mother Spirit actually vitalizes the lifeless patterns and imparts to such activated plasm the prerogatives of organismal reproduction. We observe that these three are the levels of God the Sevenfold, sometimes designated as the Supreme Creators of time and space; but otherwise we know little more than Urantia mortals—simply that concept is inherent in the Father, expression in the Son, and life realization in the Spirit.

39:2.16 (431.5) Seraphic recorders of the superior order thus effect a close liaison with the intelligence corps of their own order and with all subordinate recorders, while the broadcasts enable them to maintain constant communication with the higher recorders of the superuniverse and, through this channel, with the recorders of Havona and the custodians of knowledge on Paradise. Many of the superior order of recorders are seraphim ascended from similar duties in lower sections of the universe.

56:2.2 (638.6) Mind is the functional endowment of the Infinite Spirit, therefore infinite in potential and universal in bestowal. The primal thought of the Universal Father eternalizes in dual expression: the Isle of Paradise and his Deity equal, the spiritual and Eternal Son. Such duality of eternal reality renders the mind God, the Infinite Spirit, inevitable. Mind is the indispensable channel of communication between spiritual and material realities. The material evolutionary creature can conceive and comprehend the indwelling spirit only by the ministry of mind.
so, we can see that URANTIA does not endorse 'channeling', but endorses direct spiritual/divine revelation.
 
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wil

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a figment of your imagination
celestial revelators claim explicitly that spiritual channeling is a sordid performance (with the devil and so), and 'spiritual channeling' ---called that since modern times--- is exactly the same as its original names of 'Spiritualism'/'mediumship'
That dang sordid devil.

I encountered Urantia in community College, it seems all the various religions had their folks proselytizing on campuses all looking for some space in that recently freed mind.

Eckandcar or something like that too, along with all the more conventional models of belief.
 

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so, we can see that URANTIA does not endorse 'channeling', but endorses direct spiritual/divine revelation.
Two different things Revelation is something made known via a channel of communication.

Revelation is the channel when the two coincide, the Incarnate Christ, for example, or the Buddha, the person becomes intrinsically part of the Revelation.

In the case of an Abraham, a Moses or a Mohammed, for example, there is an ontological distinction between the Message and the messenger, although the messenger plays a distinct and particular role in transmission of the message and thus becomes intrinsic to it.

Then we have prophets, oracles, sages, shamen, etc, who make divine utterances, but do not themselves become intrinsically one with that which is revealed. Mediumship, sooth-saying, necromancy, divination.

There are many and varied ways of reception of Revelation. A sudden blinding light, a darkness, a slow dawning ... some consciously, some unconsciously; some in prayer, some in trance, some in doing the washing-up. Some visionary, some auditory some via another sense, or a combination of sensory apprehension; some pure knowings ... there are all manner of channels open to the reception of the Divine.

The process is Universal.
 

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36:6.7 (404.5) ... but we do not wholly understand the nature and source of the life-activation spark.
Ahh, that says something.

We know that life flows from the Father through the Son and by the Spirit.
The Holy Trinity, yes ... that's more than you need to know, really.

It is more than possible that the Master Spirits are the sevenfold channel of the river of life which is poured out upon all creation.
More than probably not.

Here mind is interposing an explanation where none is necessary. That is what mind does; that is how mind works, in the absence of data, it creates a narrative. If the Divine Nature was properly comprehended, there would be no question.

But we do not comprehend the technique whereby the supervising Master Spirit participates in the initial episode of life bestowal on a new planet.
It has to be said, Genesis Chapter 1, explains it from the standpoint of Principle and Chapter 2 from the standpoint of Plenitude, so 1 speaks of the Absolute and Transcendent; 2 speaks of Infinite and Immanent. G1 is the vertical axis, G2 the horizontal, in the universal symbolism of the cross.

The Ancients of Days, we are confident, also have some part in this inauguration of life on a new world, but we are wholly ignorant of the nature thereof.
The title 'Ancient of Days' is a designation of God – it infers the eternal.

(ASIDE:
A more detailed explanation can be derived from the Zohar of the Kabbalah, from Christian and Muslim theology.)

The next bit offers a clue:
We observe that these three are the levels of God the Sevenfold ...
This is attributing a natural (seven is the number of nature) determination to the Divine, and that is part the cause of the confusion.

... but otherwise we know little more than Urantia mortals—simply that concept is inherent in the Father, expression in the Son, and life realization in the Spirit.
And less, it has to be said, than the sacra doctrina of the world.

The Urantia Universe, I would say, bears the hallmark of 'mind' which, in the absence of data, creates a narrative of explanation. Hence the marked complexity of the cosmology.

The contemplation of the world's great Spiritual Traditions are all marked by an increasing simplicity – the veils are not so much revealed as removed – in the end there is just "I" and "Thou", whether that be realised in deep meditation, in prayer or in performing some mundane task.

Neither man nor mind can transcend itself, it must and can only be caught up into the Higher, in so doing ascends beyond the realm of mind, and thus to a place where all forms disappear – the closer one draws to the Divine, the more the creaturely slips away or dissolves, understood as the necessary ephemera of the ascent.

As the Christian aphorism has it: The Spirit reveals the Son, the Son reveals the Father.
 

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Revelation is the channel when the two coincide, the Incarnate Christ, for example, or the Buddha, the person becomes intrinsically part of the Revelation.

contrast the above with what the URANTIA revelators state:
48:6.37 [...] Self-importance, not work-importance, exhausts immature creatures; it is the self element that exhausts, not the effort to achieve. You can do important work if you do not become self-important; you can do several things as easily as one if you leave yourself out. Variety is restful; monotony is what wears and exhausts. Day after day is alike — just life or the alternative of death.
 

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36:6.7 (404.5) ... but we do not wholly understand the nature and source of the life-activation spark.
Ahh, that says something.

yes: among other things, that URANTIA is not infallible, as you previously and falsely claimed, see¿¿¿.

It is more than possible that the Master Spirits are the sevenfold channel of the river of life which is poured out upon all creation.
More than probably not.

you are sure of all, eh¿.

Here mind is interposing an explanation where none is necessary. That is what mind does; that is how mind works, in the absence of data, it creates a narrative. If the Divine Nature was properly comprehended, there would be no question.

yeah, you and your Bible know everything, all the time, forever, everywhere, right¿.

But we do not comprehend the technique whereby the supervising Master Spirit participates in the initial episode of life bestowal on a new planet.
It has to be said, Genesis Chapter 1, explains it from the standpoint of Principle and Chapter 2 from the standpoint of Plenitude, so 1 speaks of the Absolute and Transcendent; 2 speaks of Infinite and Immanent. G1 is the vertical axis, G2 the horizontal, in the universal symbolism of the cross.

hahaha: i respect you, but i cannot respect what you say (all the time).

The Ancients of Days, we are confident, also have some part in this inauguration of life on a new world, but we are wholly ignorant of the nature thereof.
The title 'Ancient of Days' is a designation of God – it infers the eternal.

we we revealed who the Ancients of Days are in URANTIA; even though the name of the Ancient of Days is in the Bible; i believe the Bible by the way; just not all of it.

The next bit offers a clue:
We observe that these three are the levels of God the Sevenfold ...
This is attributing a natural (seven is the number of nature) determination to the Divine, and that is part the cause of the confusion.

did you know that 7 is for many spiritual and occult sources as a divine number¿ (not the number of nature).

... but otherwise we know little more than Urantia mortals—simply that concept is inherent in the Father, expression in the Son, and life realization in the Spirit.
And less, it has to be said, than the sacra doctrina of the world.

(¿)

The Urantia Universe, I would say, bears the hallmark of 'mind' which, in the absence of data, creates a narrative of explanation. Hence the marked complexity of the cosmology.

you ignore a lot of facts and meanings and values...

Neither man nor mind can transcend itself, it must and can only be caught up into the Higher, in so doing ascends beyond the realm of mind, and thus to a place where all forms disappear – the closer one draws to the Divine, the more the creaturely slips away or dissolves, understood as the necessary ephemera of the ascent.

hahaha...
and we don't like a simplistic cosmology; we prefer a real cosmology of the universe of universes.
URANTIA:
1:7.2 (31.2) Man does not achieve union with God as a drop of water might find unity with the ocean. Man attains divine union by progressive reciprocal spiritual communion, by personality intercourse with the personal God, by increasingly attaining the divine nature through wholehearted and intelligent conformity to the divine will. Such a sublime relationship can exist only between personalities.
 

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contrast the above with what the URANTIA revelators state:
Sorry, I should have clarified – a particular mode of revelation is when the message and the messenger coincide. Thus we have Christ-nature and Buddha-nature, for example.

But I fail to see the relevance of your response, the point I was making is that 'revelation' is usually distinct from the 'channel' via which it is made known, they're not the same thing.
 

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yes: among other things, that URANTIA is not infallible, as you previously and falsely claimed, see¿¿¿.
Nope, O never claimed Urantia was infallible.
you are sure of all, eh¿.
Well more sure than Urantia, clearly.
yeah, you and your Bible know everything, all the time, forever, everywhere, right¿.
Actually my reasoning there is not based on the Bible, but on the experience and teachings of certain esoterists. On the study of metaphysics. I do not buy everything they say, but when the argue their case well, then until someone puts me right, I'll go with that. As for what I said, that in the absence of data the mind creates narratives, that's nigh-on indisputable.

As for the Bible, that doesn't know everything, either ... but in matters of "that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures" (catechism of the Catholic Church) then it's absolutely reliable and, indeed, infallible.
hahaha: i respect you, but i cannot respect what you say (all the time).
That's OK.
we we revealed who the Ancients of Days are in URANTIA; even though the name of the Ancient of Days is in the Bible; i believe the Bible by the way; just not all of it.
Well the title was made known in Scripture, The Book of Daniel. You've just incorporated various divine appellations into your cosmological schemata.
did you know that 7 is for many spiritual and occult sources as a divine number¿ (not the number of nature).
Which sources?
I don't know what that's supposed to mean.
you ignore a lot of facts and meanings and values...
No really, I don't, it's just that for me, a plethora of 'facts, meanings and values' is what the mind does.
hahaha...
and we don't like a simplistic cosmology; we prefer a real cosmology of the universe of universes.
Another example of the mind at work. I cleave to the simple. God is simple. Multiplicity increases the further from the centre, with its consequent complexity.
 

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Nope, O never claimed Urantia was infallible.

Well more sure than Urantia, clearly.

Actually my reasoning there is not based on the Bible, but on the experience and teachings of certain esoterists. On the study of metaphysics. I do not buy everything they say, but when the argue their case well, then until someone puts me right, I'll go with that. As for what I said, that in the absence of data the mind creates narratives, that's nigh-on indisputable.

As for the Bible, that doesn't know everything, either ... but in matters of "that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures" (catechism of the Catholic Church) then it's absolutely reliable and, indeed, infallible.

That's OK.

Well the title was made known in Scripture, The Book of Daniel. You've just incorporated various divine appellations into your cosmological schemata.

Which sources?

I don't know what that's supposed to mean.

No really, I don't, it's just that for me, a plethora of 'facts, meanings and values' is what the mind does.

Another example of the mind at work. I cleave to the simple. God is simple. Multiplicity increases the further from the centre, with its consequent complexity.
hahahahaha...
whatever, forget it.
i'm done with you!.
 
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