'Amir Alzzalam
Šayṭānist
- Messages
- 1,129
- Reaction score
- 342
- Points
- 83
What exactly was the point of this Abrahamic god for designing Mankind?
The POINT?
- Thread starter 'Amir Alzzalam
- Start date
..the point is "frozen"
'Amir Alzzalam
Šayṭānist
- Messages
- 1,129
- Reaction score
- 342
- Points
- 83
What does that mean?..the point is "frozen"
CircleoftheWay
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 65
- Reaction score
- 33
- Points
- 18
A good question which can lead to various conclusions. Is there ever a "point" explained in any of the various books attributed to such a God? When Job starts asking questions of this God or objecting to his treatment he is told in effect to shut up.
So is there a point? What would we gain if we knew it? Is the point to create beings who will worship their creator throughout eternity? Is it to create a testing ground, and subsequently to have two concurrent realms for all eternity of the lost and the saved? One realm to testify to God's "mercy" and the second to his "justice". But then again, we surely have to ask......." what is the point".
Maybe the mystics have a deeper understanding than to ask what the point is. They open to the Reality of their own time and place and see accordingly. One such, Meister Eckhart, says "Love has no why" - which would seem to avoid "points". He also says, “In giving us His love God has given us the Holy Spirit so that we can love Him with the love wherewith He loves Himself.” Therefore Eckhart is saying that a Love that "knows no why" is shared out by God. The love in which there is perfect freedom is ours to find, to know, to live.
As I see it, "having no point" comes close to nihilism, to meaninglessness. Yet again, as I see it, the nihilism of an ardent atheist determined to believe that when "we are dead we are dead" and likes to think of themselves as hardnosed and living in a pointless universe/reality, is paradoxically of another order entirely to the pointlessness of our mystics.
Myself, I have no love for the Abrahamic God as often portrayed by his adherents. Give me Amida any day of the week..........
So is there a point? What would we gain if we knew it? Is the point to create beings who will worship their creator throughout eternity? Is it to create a testing ground, and subsequently to have two concurrent realms for all eternity of the lost and the saved? One realm to testify to God's "mercy" and the second to his "justice". But then again, we surely have to ask......." what is the point".
Maybe the mystics have a deeper understanding than to ask what the point is. They open to the Reality of their own time and place and see accordingly. One such, Meister Eckhart, says "Love has no why" - which would seem to avoid "points". He also says, “In giving us His love God has given us the Holy Spirit so that we can love Him with the love wherewith He loves Himself.” Therefore Eckhart is saying that a Love that "knows no why" is shared out by God. The love in which there is perfect freedom is ours to find, to know, to live.
As I see it, "having no point" comes close to nihilism, to meaninglessness. Yet again, as I see it, the nihilism of an ardent atheist determined to believe that when "we are dead we are dead" and likes to think of themselves as hardnosed and living in a pointless universe/reality, is paradoxically of another order entirely to the pointlessness of our mystics.
Myself, I have no love for the Abrahamic God as often portrayed by his adherents. Give me Amida any day of the week..........
Yes..
I would think, that truly understanding the point of us being here in the universe, we would need
to know "where we have come from" .. but that is intentionally hidden .. so a test of some kind.
..but most atheists would claim that their lives aren't pointless .. and that's another point!
Distant, I hear the calling, and it becomes my whole life’s work to journey towards that voice, and all the million broken, fading parts move as they can toward that name -- and pieces begin to come together in old familiar patterns, bits of myself, stronger, like streams that join and flow together, becoming a mighty river that at last finds the sea, the final explanatory whole.
'Amir Alzzalam
Šayṭānist
- Messages
- 1,129
- Reaction score
- 342
- Points
- 83
Why couldn't 'god' have already given us His Holy Spirit? Why create a 'testing ground'? What about the thousands of years of non-Abrahamic religions? Are they simply doomed?
Nihilism is one perspective, the other closely related it Atheism. Both of these philosophies actually propose the opposite of what you are suggesting. If Death is final, it is of most importance to LIVE every moment to its FULLEST. There is no happy happy after Death. You make your Heaven or Hell here on earth.
Believing you are going to be 'forgiven' in some way through submission to a god's mercy provides you with a POINTLESS EXISTENCE. Roman emperors specifically avoided Baptism so that they could be as horrible as they wanted to be, then on their Death-Bed they would be Baptised and resolved of all their 'SINS'
Amida?
Ah, but you don't KNOW when you will die .. you might die before you are able to repent.
..not a good strategy.
In any case, if a person has a strong faith, they won't do that. They would make effort
to achieve piety, and a high status in the paradise.
'Amir Alzzalam
Šayṭānist
- Messages
- 1,129
- Reaction score
- 342
- Points
- 83
Gobbledygook superstition and hopes and blind faith. The bottom line remains in my OP . . . What Is The Point?
moralorel
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 569
- Reaction score
- 517
- Points
- 88
Very good question!
According to what is written in the Bible, God wants to grow His family. He also doesn't have just one purpose for humankind. The Bible's authors even admit that some of it is a mystery.
1. As I stated above, He wants to grow His family. He wants humans to be His sons and daughters.
I John 3:1-3 "See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure."
II Corinthians 6:18
“I will be a Father to you, and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty.”
Hebrews 2:10-11 "In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered. Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters."
2. For His own glory.
Isaiah 43:7 "Everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made.”
3. To rule over His creation.
Genesis 1:28 "And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”
Psalm 8:4-6 "What is man that you are mindful of him, and the son of man that you care for him? 5. Yet you have made him a little lower than the heavenly beings and crowned him with glory and honor. 6. You have given him dominion over the works of your hands; you have put all things under his feet,
4. To be a people who follow His commandments.
Ecclesiastes 12:13 "The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man."
5. To be heirs of His kingdom and eternal life.
Ephesians 3:6 "This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel."
I Peter 3:7 Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered."
There is more but this is my own little summary.
According to what is written in the Bible, God wants to grow His family. He also doesn't have just one purpose for humankind. The Bible's authors even admit that some of it is a mystery.
1. As I stated above, He wants to grow His family. He wants humans to be His sons and daughters.
I John 3:1-3 "See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure."
II Corinthians 6:18
“I will be a Father to you, and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty.”
Hebrews 2:10-11 "In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered. Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters."
2. For His own glory.
Isaiah 43:7 "Everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made.”
3. To rule over His creation.
Genesis 1:28 "And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”
Psalm 8:4-6 "What is man that you are mindful of him, and the son of man that you care for him? 5. Yet you have made him a little lower than the heavenly beings and crowned him with glory and honor. 6. You have given him dominion over the works of your hands; you have put all things under his feet,
4. To be a people who follow His commandments.
Ecclesiastes 12:13 "The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man."
5. To be heirs of His kingdom and eternal life.
Ephesians 3:6 "This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel."
I Peter 3:7 Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered."
There is more but this is my own little summary.
CircleoftheWay
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 65
- Reaction score
- 33
- Points
- 18
Eckhart would answer - from his own perspective and experience of eternity as being the "ground" of linear time, that God is eternally giving birth.
You appear to be drifting from the main point (!) in asking your further questions.
CircleoftheWay
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 65
- Reaction score
- 33
- Points
- 18
Once again you drift, at least from my perspective. You seem to be addressing someone else.
My point (!) is that there is no point, which also encompasses and implies that we should have no final conclusions. Your own point is that when we are dead we are dead and therefore that we should live every moment to the fullest.
As I said, the pointlessness of Faith is of another order, yet reaches the same "living of life to the fullest."
CircleoftheWay
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 65
- Reaction score
- 33
- Points
- 18
Mostly just mentioned according to my own rather whimsical sense of humour. Then again, Amida is often depicted as looking back, his/her first concern for those who cannot "come" for one reason or another. We tend to become like our Gods, or our lack of them.
Ah .. so you know that there is no life after death, is that it?
OK ... FINAL WARNING
In your first post on the LHP forum, created at your request, you say:
A rule across the entire forum.
And if I may paraphrase from later in the same post:
"So ... let's discuss our philosophies, practices, and beliefs. All are welcome to discuss our Path as well. Please keep it civil."
Yes, let us doi just that.
So if you cannot discuss without antagonism, and can't sustain civility in regard to those who do not think as you do ... then the hypocrisy is evident and you are, as they say, hoist on your own petard.
An extended citation, but worth reading:
Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand,
and meted out heaven with the span,
and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure,
and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance?
Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD,
or being his counsellor hath taught him?
With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him,
and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge,
and shewed to him the way of understanding?
Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket,
and are counted as the small dust of the balance:
behold, he taketh up the isles as a very little thing.
And Lebanon is not sufficient to burn,
nor the beasts thereof sufficient for a burnt offering.
All nations before him are as nothing;
and they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.
To whom then will ye liken God?
or what likeness will ye compare unto him?
The workman melteth a graven image,
and the goldsmith spreadeth it over with gold, and casteth silver chains.
He that is so impoverished that he hath no oblation chooseth a tree that will not rot;
he seeketh unto him a cunning workman to prepare a graven image, that shall not be moved.
Have ye not known?
have ye not heard?
hath it not been told you from the beginning?
have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?
It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth,
and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers;
that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain,
and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
That bringeth the princes to nothing;
he maketh the judges of the earth as vanity.
Yea, they shall not be planted;
yea, they shall not be sown:
yea, their stock shall not take root in the earth:
and he shall also blow upon them, and they shall wither,
and the whirlwind shall take them away as stubble.
To whom then will ye liken me,
or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.
Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things,
that bringeth out their host by number:
he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might,
for that he is strong in power; not one faileth.
Why sayest thou, O Jacob, and speakest, O Israel,
My way is hid from the LORD,
and my judgment is passed over from my God?
Hast thou not known?
hast thou not heard,
that the everlasting God, the LORD,
the Creator of the ends of the earth,
fainteth not, neither is weary?
there is no searching of his understanding.
He giveth power to the faint;
and to them that have no might he increaseth strength.
Even the youths shall faint and be weary,
and the young men shall utterly fall:
But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength;
they shall mount up with wings as eagles;
they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk,
and not faint.
From Isaiah 40 – I recommend the entire chapter.
Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand,
and meted out heaven with the span,
and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure,
and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance?
Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD,
or being his counsellor hath taught him?
With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him,
and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge,
and shewed to him the way of understanding?
Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket,
and are counted as the small dust of the balance:
behold, he taketh up the isles as a very little thing.
And Lebanon is not sufficient to burn,
nor the beasts thereof sufficient for a burnt offering.
All nations before him are as nothing;
and they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.
To whom then will ye liken God?
or what likeness will ye compare unto him?
The workman melteth a graven image,
and the goldsmith spreadeth it over with gold, and casteth silver chains.
He that is so impoverished that he hath no oblation chooseth a tree that will not rot;
he seeketh unto him a cunning workman to prepare a graven image, that shall not be moved.
Have ye not known?
have ye not heard?
hath it not been told you from the beginning?
have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?
It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth,
and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers;
that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain,
and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
That bringeth the princes to nothing;
he maketh the judges of the earth as vanity.
Yea, they shall not be planted;
yea, they shall not be sown:
yea, their stock shall not take root in the earth:
and he shall also blow upon them, and they shall wither,
and the whirlwind shall take them away as stubble.
To whom then will ye liken me,
or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.
Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things,
that bringeth out their host by number:
he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might,
for that he is strong in power; not one faileth.
Why sayest thou, O Jacob, and speakest, O Israel,
My way is hid from the LORD,
and my judgment is passed over from my God?
Hast thou not known?
hast thou not heard,
that the everlasting God, the LORD,
the Creator of the ends of the earth,
fainteth not, neither is weary?
there is no searching of his understanding.
He giveth power to the faint;
and to them that have no might he increaseth strength.
Even the youths shall faint and be weary,
and the young men shall utterly fall:
But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength;
they shall mount up with wings as eagles;
they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk,
and not faint.
From Isaiah 40 – I recommend the entire chapter.
O the depth of the riches of the wisdom and of the knowledge of God!
How incomprehensible are his judgments, and how unsearchable his ways!
For who hath known the mind of the Lord? Or who hath been his counsellor?
Or who hath first given to him, and recompense shall be made him?
For of him, and by him, and in him, are all things:
to him be glory for ever. Amen.
Romans 11:33-36
How incomprehensible are his judgments, and how unsearchable his ways!
For who hath known the mind of the Lord? Or who hath been his counsellor?
Or who hath first given to him, and recompense shall be made him?
For of him, and by him, and in him, are all things:
to him be glory for ever. Amen.
Romans 11:33-36
'Amir Alzzalam
Šayṭānist
- Messages
- 1,129
- Reaction score
- 342
- Points
- 83
I'll save you time, just kick me now . . .