o~..Morality..~o

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So how do we measure morality? Is it simply a set measurement by certain rules to follow? Or is morality something that is all in the mind and is all about perception. Do we have the right to question morality? Or is it Gods job? (Only God can judge us)

I would like to see people's view regarding this, feel free to quote and reply. Let me give you the Robin Hood situation, if someone steals from a rich man and gives it to the poor, is it justified? Has the man done a good deed, or has he done both good and bad therefore they cancel each other out. Or did he go about doing good in a wrong way therefore he is no better.



My name is Panayiodi btw also known as Peter :D

My view is Good can come out of 2 negative's or 2 wrongs. This has been proven in war situations (Joan of arc, who saved France from the British), it has been proven in maths (- + - = +) and it has been proven in Homeopathy and even science.
 
Postmaster said:
So how do we measure morality? Is it simply a set measurement by certain rules to follow? Or is morality something that is all in the mind and is all about perception. Do we have the right to question morality? Or is it Gods job? (Only God can judge us)

I would like to see people's view regarding this, feel free to quote and reply. Let me give you the Robin Hood situation, if someone steals from a rich man and gives it to the poor, is it justified? Has the man done a good deed, or has he done both good and bad therefore they cancel each other out. Or did he go about doing good in a wrong way therefore he is no better.



My name is Panayiodi btw also known as Peter :D

My view is Good can come out of 2 negative's or 2 wrongs. This has been proven in war situations (Joan of arc, who saved France from the British), it has been proven in maths (- + - = +) and it has been proven in Homeopathy and even science.
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Good Evening Postmaster,

As Dauer pointed out, every human on earth has at least seven moral laws they must follow. They are called the Noahic laws, because we allegedly all come from Noah and the Ark. These are 1) to establish courts of justice; 2) not to commit blasphemy; 3) not to commit idolatry; 4) not to commit incest and adultery; 5) not to commit bloodshed; 6) not to commit robbery; and 7) not to eat flesh cut from a living animal. These commandments are fairly simple and straightforward, and most of them are recognized by most of the world as sound moral principles.

Hence morality (basic morality) is measured in black and white, right or wrong. There is a world view on basic morals that no sane individual would go against. Of course there are insane people out there, and those that do not care a whit for others, so even these seven basic laws are broken everyday.

As for your comments on two negatives making a positive...that does not mean two wrongs make a right. Two wrongs make it doubly wrong. These two concepts are apples and oranges. A negative in math is not a wrong, it is an anticedent, an imaginary number, based on an abstract thought. A bit of poison used to cure poisoning is not a wrong, it is an immunity builder. I'm not sure how Joan of Arc fits into a double wrong resulting in a right, comes into play.

Any way, everything in existence needs to be "grounded" in something. I think basic morality is grounded in the above rules. They are what is written in our hearts.

v/r

Q
 
Ever see a 2 yr old sneak? they do even before they can talk and even on things that you havent instructed them right or wrong about.

At that young age they have a basic morality grant it adults seem to have the option to mold this morality into whatever we deem right to an extent.
I believe when it said in Jer. I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Its the same Law same covenant just Now it is in our hearts to be moral.
we get better or worse at it as we grow and "mature" depends on how we are molded.

We cannot judge a person unto life or death "eternal" that is reserved for God alone but we can judge buy peoples fruits etc. etc.

Paul said Bad company corrupts good morals so we are supposed to use some judgement about peoples actions.
Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Would defeat purpose of spreading the gospel if we were to leave everybody alone and let them decide what is right for their selves.

On the Robin Hood ...Soloman said A thief that steals because he is hungry is without fault (paraphrased) my view is that the rich should have already seen his need and fed Him? See Bible rules about Gleening of fields etc.

When we dont take care of the needy Robin Hoods come out of the woodwork but then again you have to use judgement to see the real motive.

I dont think the math adds up when concerning God we Know according to the word that God does not use evil and they will not balance each other out like a - and a +
But we also know that ALL things work for the good of them that are called according to His purpose.
To me that means that I can look forward to even when I see something I consider evil happen to me God is working in the background with a plan to overcome that and make the situation turn for my good.
I.E My youngest has epilpesy bad deal it seems. After prayer at around the age of 3 she went 9 years seizure free thank God. But now has started having them again. I got a little mad I thought how when I believed she was healed could this be a good thing? Or work for the good ?
Then My oldest Got her drivers permit and as I stood there and heard the lady ask if she had epilpesy. I was overwhelmed with thankfulness that we have found out well before my youngest started driving that they were still there and I thanked God for watching over my family. She is 13 if they would have come back at 17 or 18 she might have been behind the wheel of a car I dont know but I do know God works for the good.


So I dont think I can steal but if I am stolen from I can look forward to God working that in as a good thing for me in some way.

I am not sure it is ok to tell somebody they have bad morals?? I would rather work on getting them attatched to the Vine then allow the Father to prune away that which He deems immoral.
 
Just to clarify my own view (with respect to anyone else's), I do not believe that the above were given to Noah because I believe it is most likely Noah was a myth. I also don't believe they are the foundation of morality. To me, what is the moral way to act is determined by society. If society says it's okay to kill someone for assaulting you, then it's okay. If society says it's not okay to raise a fist to an assailant, then it is not okay.

Sometime a society's definition of morality will change based on new information or a reaction within the society by some who disagree with the standing morality. So now there's a new morality. In general this will continue until a morality exists that respects the rights of the individual, but there will still be naunced differences depending on emphasis on individual vs community or amount of reverence for elders or feelings towards capital punishment or abortion or other difficult issues.

That said, my own personal morality would disagree with the morality that might exist in other societies. I understand my morality as mostly a fermentation of my experiences along with my genetics. I throw in an x factor, my ability to transcend these definitions.

Dauer
 
dauer said:
Just to clarify my own view (with respect to anyone else's), I do not believe that the above were given to Noah because I believe it is most likely Noah was a myth. I also don't believe they are the foundation of morality. To me, what is the moral way to act is determined by society. If society says it's okay to kill someone for assaulting you, then it's okay. If society says it's not okay to raise a fist to an assailant, then it is not okay.

Sometime a society's definition of morality will change based on new information or a reaction within the society by some who disagree with the standing morality. So now there's a new morality. In general this will continue until a morality exists that respects the rights of the individual, but there will still be naunced differences depending on emphasis on individual vs community or amount of reverence for elders or feelings towards capital punishment or abortion or other difficult issues.

That said, my own personal morality would disagree with the morality that might exist in other societies. I understand my morality as mostly a fermentation of my experiences along with my genetics. I throw in an x factor, my ability to transcend these definitions.

Dauer
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LMAOFOTF, you argued a point (in another post) that you do not believe in? You must be a lawyer (or should be). If you are lawyer, I'd like to hold you with a retainer.

Why are you here if you believe nothing is real? To prove a point? What point? If everything is relative then none of this should matter to you. But I submit, it does. Thou doest protest too much my dear Dauer. :D

Seek and ye shall find.

v/r

Q
 
Basstian said:
Ever see a 2 yr old sneak? they do even before they can talk and even on things that you havent instructed them right or wrong about.

At that young age they have a basic morality grant it adults seem to have the option to mold this morality into whatever we deem right to an extent.
I believe when it said in Jer. I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Its the same Law same covenant just Now it is in our hearts to be moral.
we get better or worse at it as we grow and "mature" depends on how we are molded.

We cannot judge a person unto life or death "eternal" that is reserved for God alone but we can judge buy peoples fruits etc. etc.

Paul said Bad company corrupts good morals so we are supposed to use some judgement about peoples actions.
Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Would defeat purpose of spreading the gospel if we were to leave everybody alone and let them decide what is right for their selves.

On the Robin Hood ...Soloman said A thief that steals because he is hungry is without fault (paraphrased) my view is that the rich should have already seen his need and fed Him? See Bible rules about Gleening of fields etc.

When we dont take care of the needy Robin Hoods come out of the woodwork but then again you have to use judgement to see the real motive.

I dont think the math adds up when concerning God we Know according to the word that God does not use evil and they will not balance each other out like a - and a +
But we also know that ALL things work for the good of them that are called according to His purpose.
To me that means that I can look forward to even when I see something I consider evil happen to me God is working in the background with a plan to overcome that and make the situation turn for my good.
I.E My youngest has epilpesy bad deal it seems. After prayer at around the age of 3 she went 9 years seizure free thank God. But now has started having them again. I got a little mad I thought how when I believed she was healed could this be a good thing? Or work for the good ?
Then My oldest Got her drivers permit and as I stood there and heard the lady ask if she had epilpesy. I was overwhelmed with thankfulness that we have found out well before my youngest started driving that they were still there and I thanked God for watching over my family. She is 13 if they would have come back at 17 or 18 she might have been behind the wheel of a car I dont know but I do know God works for the good.


So I dont think I can steal but if I am stolen from I can look forward to God working that in as a good thing for me in some way.

I am not sure it is ok to tell somebody they have bad morals?? I would rather work on getting them attatched to the Vine then allow the Father to prune away that which He deems immoral.
Click to expand...
Never saw a two year old sneak, but did see an 18 month old look me dead in the face and take a cookie after I told him the consequenses of doing such. That is called strong willed.

If I'm stolen from, I will do what I can to catch the thief, and then God can deal with the issue. That is God working for the better as well.

I like the fact that you saw a warning sign for your child, in a question asked of another of your children, before the potential damage (and heart ache) could occur. That is God in action.

It is ok, to tell someone they have bad morals, if they infact have bad morals. Warn them first, then feel less bad after you shut them down, when they persist.

It is as simple as a man looking after his daughter, when a suiter wants a little something extra, and I find out. I address the young man VERY QUICKLY, and in no uncertain terms that he is out of line. I further address my daughter that she is not to give in to anyone, because they say she owes them.

Any arguements?

v/r

Q
 
My son is one of those 2 year old sneaks.. He waits until you're out of the room and heads to the very thing or things he's not supposed to play with. He's notorious for this.. He also strips bare butt naked and he's not supposed to do this so he goes into another room then comes back to me all cute and naked as the day he was born and says Hi!! How the heck are you supposed to be firm faced with that??Sorry wasnt really addressing morality with that story I just wanted to add to what Q said.


As far as morality goes.. I believe that we all have an inner moral law that tells us whats right and whats wrong. We call it our conscience.. There are some people that continually go against that moral law and I believe it when God says that gives these people over to reprobate minds. I believe also that denying the Holy Spirits voice sets people up for the same fall. Once you let a sin harbor in your heart it becomes easier and easier to sin without conscience. Ive experienced it too many times in my life. So I try to repent when I feel convicted of a sin in my life.. and I know that is how the Holy Spirit deals with me. Just my 2 cents :)
 
I believe when it said in Jer. I will put my Law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts; and I will be their G!D, and they shall be my people. It's the same Law same covenant just Now it is in our hearts to be moral.
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except that i don't accept that the "them" referred to are anyone other than the jewish people. the covenant is particular to us, as is the Law - the law that applies to other people is, as stated by Q, the noachide law. now, dauer may not believe this is anything other than mythical, but i do believe in it. i don't think it's particularly relevant whether you can find a historical noah or not, to be perfectly honest.

To me, what is the moral way to act is determined by society. If society says it's okay to kill someone for assaulting you, then it's okay. If society says it's not okay to raise a fist to an assailant, then it is not okay.
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but this then inevitably leads to the idea that a whole *society* based on this morality is immoral. for example, roman society was, as far as i'm concerned, immoral, regardless of the fact they thought it was OK to do the things they thought were OK. i can accept that morality is subjectively defined by society, but i don't call that morality the same way that i regard Divine Commandment as morality. a jewish definition of morality is "what G!D Wants of us", as in "Justice, justice shall you pursue, that you may live and possess the land HaShem, your G!D, is giving you." (deuteronomy 16:20) - now this embraces notions of equity as well as universal morality. however, we are not claiming that this is anything other than a Divine Command, although it can be deduced rationally.

In general this will continue until a morality exists that respects the rights of the individual
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personally, dauer, i think this is a MASSIVE assumption and one which is not borne out by the history of the modern world. did it happen in rwanda? in bosnia? in afghanistan? is it even happening in western europe? i think your faith in post-enlightenment progressiveness is alarmingly misplaced.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
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