Heterodoxy and "Heresy"

TheLightWithin

TheLightWithin

...through a glass, darkly
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Cherish religious freedom: yours, mine, everyone's
I wonder about the concept of "heresy" and what members here think about it. Divergent views are, I guess, perceived as a threat to an organized religion's power over people... I try to get my head around why some ideas are less tolerated than others, when does heterodoxy become heresy, or when does it become perceived as a "cult" [is heterodoxy or "heresy" alone enough to make something a "cult"] -- and when does a divergent set of ideas become another religion altogether?

I wonder to what extent religions outside Western monotheistic religions conceive of "heresy" -- Does anybody know?
 
Based on your last question maybe this belongs under belief and spirituality.

As far as Christianity ive stated before that Christianity in its origination is very intolerant to other religions. You just have to read the bible to see that. These days everyone can say they are a Christian and how dare you say otherwise. It doesnt mean the same thing anymore. Ive recently come to peace with that and rather than fight against it I personally consider myself a disciple of Christ as we are called to go out into the world and make disciples.

The problem i struggle with is this forum is about interfaith discussion and sharing beliefs. For me its watching people that ive come to care about going down a destructive path and not able to warn them without protheselyzing. Its a weird balance. So ive taken to just correcting what i consider butchering of scripture.

Apostles Creed
I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit
and born of the virgin Mary.
He suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to hell.
The third day he rose again from the dead.
He ascended to heaven
and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty.
From there he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic* church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.

Nicene Creed 489 AD version by preference

believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made. Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father; He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]; who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets. And I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

If a doctrine deviates from this is unscriptural and heretical. The only thing i would possibly change is the Catholic Church and just say Church for personal reasoning that the body of Christ consists of more than the Catholic denomination since the Protestant Reformation.
 
Faithfulservant said:
Based on your last question maybe this belongs under belief and spirituality.
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Could be I was debating as to which was the best thread. Leaned towards this as historical accounts of "heresy" trials that I know of are Western, mainly Christian, but I kept it broader than Christianity by putting it in the Abrahamic thread as I believe "heresy" is a consideration in other Abrahamic faiths as well.
 
Faithfulservant said:
f a doctrine deviates from this is unscriptural and heretical. The only thing i would possibly change is the Catholic Church and just say Church for personal reasoning that the body of Christ consists of more than the Catholic denomination since the Protestant Reformation.
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Why is it "heretical" or "unscriptural" if doctrines deviate from creeds? Creeds are not part of scripture. Some denominations are explicitly non creedal and view the creeds as "heretical" if they acknowledge them at all.

The phrase "catholic church" can refer to universality and not just the contemporary denomination, I believe.

I think that might ? also refer to the idea of "church invisible" but I'm not clear on that idea.
Faithfulservant said:
For me its watching people that ive come to care about going down a destructive path and not able to warn them without protheselyzing
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What's destructive about their "paths" - what do you mean by that
 
Also, your answer states some beliefs, but doesn't really answer the question: What is it ABOUT the beliefs that are "wrong"or "destructive" in any fashion or somehow "bad"?

Maybe I should be more explicit, and add specific questions to my own thread here about particular so-called "heresies" to be examined more closely one by one.
 
TheLightWithin said:
Why is it "heretical" or "unscriptural" if doctrines deviate from creeds? Creeds are not part of scripture. Some denominations are explicitly non creedal and view the creeds as "heretical" if they acknowledge them at all.
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The creeds are taken from scripture. Like i said these so called denominations that deviate from scripture and would be labeled heretical and would be considered false teaching which we are warned against.
TheLightWithin said:
The phrase "catholic church" can refer to universality and not just the contemporary denomination, I believe.
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I dont agree for many reasons.
TheLightWithin said:
What's destructive about their "paths" - what do you mean by that
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The bible clearly teaches that Jesus is the way the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father but by Him.

Matthew 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

There is no compromise to this.
 
TheLightWithin said:
Also, your answer states some beliefs, but doesn't really answer the question: What is it ABOUT the beliefs that are "wrong"or "destructive" in any fashion or somehow "bad"?

Maybe I should be more explicit, and add specific questions to my own thread here about particular so-called "heresies" to be examined more closely one by one.
Click to expand...
Jesus Christ is the ONLY way. As the Word from the beginning coming in the flesh born of a virgin and was without sin without His work and death on the cross and His resurrection..to compromise on any of that would be bad. I dont understand why you are so shocked and amazed by any of this. You are very well read and appear to have studied christianity at length. You cant poke holes in this with your trying to reason it out based on world views. This is 2000 years of tried and true biblical faith that have had very smart men try to poke the same holes unsuccessfully.
 
Faithfulservant said:
Why?
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Intolerance of religion can lead to religious persecution, marginalization of people with different religions, attempting to restrict the practice of other religions, or of other denominations, potentially restriction of religious freedom in general.

You may have some idea of history and what it can be like. Ungood.
 
Faithfulservant said:
The creeds are taken from scripture. Like i said these so called denominations that deviate from scripture and would be labeled heretical and would be considered false teaching which we are warned against.
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Are they understood accurately? The denominations that decline the creeds get their ideas from scripture and read it differently. They think others have it wrong or have deceived others.

That debate about who's right and who's got it wrong can go round and round.

Hence the need for religious freedom, which requires tolerance, at least in behavior.

There is no compromise on this.

The alternative is restriction and persecution.
 
Faithfulservant said:
I dont understand why you are so shocked and amazed by any of this.
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not quite the right understanding of my thinking
Faithfulservant said:
You are very well read and appear to have studied christianity at length.
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Indeed. I have a good idea of what the main beliefs are and the variations that remain within the mainstream and the varying degrees of heterodox views that involve different bible interpretations, and what they think and believe. I also have a decent idea of the doctrines of other religions. Around here (this forum) at this particular time it is mostly Christianity which is examined in depth, so that's what I end up joining the discussion on or starting discussion on. I wish I had been around in the days where there were other people, more Jewish voices or people from Eastern or alternative paths where I could ask more detailed questions or just watch the discussions. You can do that on Reddit for absolutely anything, any line of belief at all, but it's not the same. Too big a forum, not as easy to get to know a consistent set of people, how much they know, what and how they think, etc.
 
Faithfulservant said:
trying to reason it out based on world views.
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people reason out everything based on their world view. some people are more conscious of it than others.
Faithfulservant said:
2000 years of tried and true biblical faith
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tried, and many denominations, all of whom think they are true
Faithfulservant said:
very smart men try to poke the same holes unsuccessfully.
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Unsuccessfully?
Depends on what they were trying to accomplish.
If they were trying to develop different denominations, they got that.
If they were trying to get the church to reform, sort of, counter-reformation, etc.
If they were trying to make space for a secular society with space for religious freedom, more or less successful in many societies around the globe.
 
TheLightWithin said:
Intolerance of religion can lead to religious persecution, marginalization of people with different religions, attempting to restrict the practice of other religions, or of other denominations, potentially restriction of religious freedom in general.

You may have some idea of history and what it can be like. Ungood.
Click to expand...
Christianity is intolerant. The believer should not be. We are called to love each other. If religious intolerance is practiced its because it is religion and not a relationship with the Almighty and its not of God.
 
TheLightWithin said:
Are they understood accurately? The denominations that decline the creeds get their ideas from scripture and read it differently. They think others have it wrong or have deceived others.

That debate about who's right and who's got it wrong can go round and round.

Hence the need for religious freedom, which requires tolerance, at least in behavior.

There is no compromise on this.

The alternative is restriction and persecution.
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Not sure if you realize this but the majority of these "denominations" are modern and have come about in the last 100 years. 2000 years of church history is wrong? I would consider that an attack of the enemy and we were warned of this repeatedly in scripture.

We have religious freedom. Once again you are insinuating im saying otherwise. Scripture is also clear that we have free will. The bible was written for believers not the unbeliever. If you dont like what it says then dont read it.. but as a believer i can and will call out anyone teaching a false gospel from its words. If they want to create a new religion by all means go write your own book and practice however you want but dont butcher what God sanctified as His divine will for man.
 
TheLightWithin said:
people reason out everything based on their world view. some people are more conscious of it than others.
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And like i said the world is an enemy of a believer. Jesus told us not to be shocked if the world hates us as it hated Him first.
TheLightWithin said:
tried, and many denominations, all of whom think they are true
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I said previously of the new denominations being modern..
TheLightWithin said:
Unsuccessfully?
Depends on what they were trying to accomplish.
If they were trying to develop different denominations, they got that.
If they were trying to get the church to reform, sort of, counter-reformation, etc.
If they were trying to make space for a secular society with space for religious freedom, more or less successful in many societies around the globe.
Click to expand...
That is a world view and not biblical. God doesnt care about denominations He DOES care that His sheep beware of wolves in sheeps clothing and that the tares be raised with the wheat to be seperated later.
 
Faithfulservant said:
2000 years of church history is wrong?
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Could be, depending on what you're looking at.
The Orthodox and Catholics have been in "schism" since very early and for a long time.
Other potential denominations and factions developed very early. They got labeled "heresies" and persecution to the extent of killing occurred.
So different ideas are nothing new.
Now you might not like Bart Ehrman's perspective a whole lot, but I'm going to give credit that you and most people in this forum read and listen to things from opposing viewpoints quite often.
Lost Christianities

The Great Courses

www.thegreatcourses.com www.thegreatcourses.com
 
Faithfulservant said:
I said previously of the new denominations being modern..
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Of course many are modern. Are you stating that makes them less good?
Here's what modern people have that many many people over the last 2000 years didnt:
Access to printed material. Formal education. Reasonable work hours. Artificial lighting so they can read after work. Religious freedom. Freedom of speech. Freedom of the press (in some parts of the world) Modern communication so they can reach out to people with their new ideas. Modern travel so they can go to places to meet with like minded people.
This has enabled serious, thoughtful people to pick through scriptures studiously themselves and in many case say to themselves, "oh no, oh no, we've been told wrong, let's get it right"
I don't always agree with their takes on things, but I'm thrilled they have all the things that make it possible to follow their intellect and their conscience on it.
 
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