What the bible says

[Yahweh kid]

I don't believe that anybody is "good enough" .. we are all sinners, and rely on G-d's mercy.

I also believe that we are all sinners and need God's mercy.

I believe G-d is Holy

Me too.....can we become holy?

.through many ways .. conscience .. experience .. seeking religious knowledge etc.

This is very subjective, it basically means that every person has their own idea what God's laws are. I do not think God is going to judge every soul based on their understanding, but rather His standards, because He is a righteous judge.

 

[RabbiO]

@Yahweh kid -

Part of the problem arises because different paths use the same or similar words, but they don’t mean the same things. A couple of examples - When you talk about the Bible you’re not talking, in a significant way, about the same thing I’m referring to when I use that term. You refer to salvation as being the saving of one’s soul from eternal suffering. The concept of eternal suffering is basically alien to Judaism.

 

[RabbiO]

@Yahweh kid -

I would also put forth for your consideration that if you are numbering Judaism as among those religions that make you a slave to receive, however you want to define it, salvation, your understanding of Judaism is limited.

 

[Yahweh kid]

@Yahweh kid -

I would also put forth for your consideration that if you are numbering Judaism as among those religions that make you a slave to receive, however you want to define it, salvation, your understanding of Judaism is limited.

Do you have to follow the laws in the Tanakh? If so, why? and are there any consequences for not following the laws?

You refer to salvation as being the saving of one’s soul from eternal suffering. The concept of eternal suffering is basically alien to Judaism.

Please explain how it works in Judaism....

 

[muhammad_isa]

This is very subjective, it basically means that every person has their own idea what God's laws are.

No it doesn't .. it simply means that we have been given an intelligence to use.
If we have a desire to manipulate Divine decree, we only fool ourselves.

I do not think God is going to judge every soul based on their understanding, but rather His standards..

Well first, ignorance is no excuse in the sight of the law..
..nor is it in the sight of 'the Lord' .

Our sincerity and intentions are paramount .. following 'law' should not be done to impress
other people, for example.

..because He is a righteous judge..

Of course .. free from corruption .. nothing but the truth .. all deeds laid bare.

 

[Yahweh kid]

it simply means that we have been given an intelligence to use.

That makes no sense, I must be stupid.... It is still subjective.... how do we know if we are manipulating God's decree? Where can I find the Divine decree?

Our sincerity and intentions are paramount

What do you mean by that?

all deeds laid bare

If we sinned once or millions of times, we will have to pay our wages for our deeds/sin. Do good deeds pay for bad deeds? Are we holy or unholy?

 

[muhammad_isa]

..how do we know if we are manipulating God's decree?

Have you not got a conscience?

Where can I find the Divine decree?

I have already said .. it is a gift from G-d .. G-d guides whomsoever He wills.

What do you mean by that?

We need to be sincere in our faith .. and not 'bend' what we subconsciously acknowledge as
truth.

If we sinned once or millions of times, we will have to pay our wages for our deeds/sin.

'pay our wages'? In what way?

Do good deeds pay for bad deeds?

Good deeds done with the right intention should increase our faith, and decrease the affect of
our bad deeds .. yes.

Are we holy or unholy?

Only G-d is Holy, as mankind are guilty of sin .. however minor (or major) they may be.

 

[Yahweh kid]

Have you not got a conscience?

Yes I do, but we have to consider that every person has a different conscience... influenced by their experiences/upbringing/education/etc ...

I have already said .. it is a gift from G-d .. G-d guides whomsoever He wills.

Does God give a different (gift) decree for everyone? that makes no sense... does God have millions of different decrees?

We need to be sincere in our faith .. and not 'bend' what we subconsciously acknowledge as
truth.

Can a person can be sincerely wrong?

'pay our wages'? In what way?

Not sure, maybe some dollars... It could be

Good deeds done with the right intention should increase our faith, and decrease the affect of
our bad deeds .. yes.

So if I murdered a person, can I be pardoned by how many good deeds with the right intention I do?

Only G-d is Holy, as mankind are guilty of sin .. however minor (or major) they may be.

Does God surround him by the unholy? Is it not so that in the Bible sin was cast out of His presence? Do you agree with that?

I do agree that all of mankind is guilty of sin, this is why I believe we will be punished for our transgressions however minor (or major) they may be....

 

[muhammad_isa]

does God have millions of different decrees?

No .. but we do..

Can a person can be sincerely wrong?

That is equivalent to making sincere mistakes .. of course we can.
Life is a journey .. some learn from their mistakes .. and some don't.

So if I murdered a person, can I be pardoned by how many good deeds with the right intention I do?

I have already said .. major sin requires sincere repentence, with intention not to repeat it .. ever!

Does God surround him by the unholy? Is it not so that in the Bible sin was cast out of His presence? Do you agree with that?

Something like that .. we need to purify ourselves and work good deeds to get
closer to G-d.

I do agree that all of mankind is guilty of sin, this is why I believe we will be punished for our transgressions however minor (or major) they may be....

..and I also believe that most of us will be/are being punished for our shortcomings.
..but also believe, that G-d is Most Merciful, and have hope in that.

It is not that there is nothing we can do to avoid destruction .. losing hope is not
part of faith .. we have to continue to struggle (against evil .. of ourselves and others)

 

[Yahweh kid]

does God have millions of different decrees?

No .. but we do..

So how do we know which one is God's decree...? So is it ok if we follow a personal version of God's degree as long as we are sincere... even though it can be way off from the Truth.

So if I murdered a person, can I be pardoned by how many good deeds with the right intention I do?

I have already said .. major sin requires sincere repentence, with intention not to repeat it .. ever!

No my friend, show me a judge that will pardon a murderer because he did 25 years of sincere deeds with right intentions.... that murderer will go to jail, no matter what. Same will happen on the day of Judgement. I believe God is righteous and merciful.

Something like that .. we need to purify ourselves and work good deeds to get
closer to G-d.

Can a criminal pardon himself of his crime? No.... So how are we going to purify ourselves? We can't.
I do not agree with you that God surrounds Himself with unholiness.
"God's inherent holiness: God's holiness is considered an intrinsic and absolute attribute of his character. He is described as being "set apart" from all creation, utterly pure, and incapable of tolerating sin"

God can make us holy and according to the Bible there is only one way God will pardon us from our transgressions.

we have to continue to struggle (against evil .. of ourselves and others)

I am set free from the struggle(I am not a slave anymore), that is why I follow Christ Jesus and not other faiths or religions.

 

[muhammad_isa]

So how do we know which one is God's decree...?

I've already answered that .. G-d guides whomsoever He wills..
What about you? How do you know?

No my friend, show me a judge that will pardon a murderer because he did 25 years of sincere deeds with right intentions.... that murderer will go to jail, no matter what..

I never said that there are no consequences ..
..but hell forever? I believe that can be avoided .. with sincere repentance.
Most justice systems recognize remorse .. there is parole.

Can a criminal pardon himself of his crime? No.... So how are we going to purify ourselves? We can't.

Wrong! G-d forgives whomsoever He wills, and punishes whomsoever He wills.
G-d, the Most High, is aware of what the 'heart' contains.

I am set free from the struggle(I am not a slave anymore), that is why I follow Christ Jesus and not other faiths or religions.

..and that sounds like a false sense of security to me .. satan is an avowed enemy of mankind.
satan only serves to mislead .. your creed is important, but so are your deeds.
We can all make mistakes (sin), including major sin .. there is no free ticket that bypasses
temptation .. faith gives some protection .. but we must act on it .. build on the foundation.

 

[Thomas]

I am set free from the struggle(I am not a slave anymore), that is why I follow Christ Jesus and not other faiths or religions.

Are you saying you no longer sin?

 

[Yahweh kid]

Are you saying you no longer sin?

No, I am a sinner.... I sinned in the past, I sin today and will probably sin in the future like everybody else, but my transgressions are paid for by Jesus Christ who died on the cross for me. Because I follow Him out of love I desire to follow His guidance, to sin no more and be more like Him. Sin causes evil/sadness/brokenness/addictions to come into our lives.

 

[Yahweh kid]

I've already answered that .. G-d guides whomsoever He wills..
What about you? How do you know?

How do I know? The Word of God/Bible.

I never said that there are no consequences ..
..but hell forever? I believe that can be avoided .. with sincere repentance.
Most justice systems recognize remorse .. there is parole.

I believe God is eternal so the consequences are eternal, no parole. So jail for eternity... a place of eternal separation from God.
Look what happened to Adam and Eve after they ate from the Tree of Knowledge... that could be considered a small sin by man, but God did not think so (Wrong! G-d forgives whomsoever He wills, and punishes whomsoever He wills.
the humankind was cursed). The Word says "the wages of sin is death" .... every sin. So the Bible gives you a good idea how God will judge the sinner.

Wrong! G-d forgives whomsoever He wills, and punishes whomsoever He wills.
G-d, the Most High, is aware of what the 'heart' contains.

Is God not righteous?
I do believe that God judges that which contains in our hearts. Sin. "the wages of sin is death" are you a sinner?

.and that sounds like a false sense of security to me .. satan is an avowed enemy of mankind.
satan only serves to mislead .. your creed is important, but so are your deeds.
We can all make mistakes (sin), including major sin .. there is no free ticket that bypasses
temptation .. faith gives some protection .. but we must act on it .. build on the foundation.

I mostly agree with what you say....but what I definitely not agree with is the security you mentioned. There are two options, our security(Salvation) is either based on our deeds or on God's work. I chose God's way. This is the difference between Christianity and other faiths. From there we grow in faith and strive to be more holy like God in our lives. In the Word, when you become a believer you also become a new creation. “So if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation: everything old has passed away; see, everything has become new!”

 

[Thomas]

How do I know? The Word of God/Bible.

The problem here is, people read the bible and interpret the text differently, so that argument – 'because the Bible says so' is insufficient in itself.

I believe God is eternal so the consequences are eternal, no parole.

I think that temporal faults having eternal consequences cannot be conceived as a 'good'. The punishment will always be disproportionate, and punishment with no chance of repentance serves no good end ...

So jail for eternity... a place of eternal separation from God.

I follow the Bible and the Word of Christ, so I believe in hell and hope it is empty, and have faith in Christ's ability to rescue every fallen soul. I am called to love my neighbour, and anyone who loves their neighbour would not consign them to eternal suffering.

(Wrong! G-d forgives whomsoever He wills, and punishes whomsoever He wills. the humankind was cursed).

I don't believe God cursed anyone.

The Word says "the wages of sin is death" .... every sin. So the Bible gives you a good idea how God will judge the sinner.

Then why Jesus?

Is God not righteous?

Is God not merciful?

Did Jesus not tell us to forgive?

Who are we to condemn?

Who are we to judge another?

 

[muhammad_isa]

There are two options, our security(Salvation) is either based on our deeds or on God's work..

I don't agree .. it is dependent on the path we tread.
If we incline towards evil, regardless of professed creed, then that is the path we end up on.

..so we need (for salvation)
1. a strong faith
2. our good deeds outweigh our bad deeds

Either one alone is not sufficient.
I hear these claims from various beliefs (Muslim, Christian etc.), claiming if you don't believe as they believe, you will not be saved. They cannot all be right.

Most probably, none of them are .. G-d will judge between them on the Day of Judgement.

 

[Yahweh kid]

The problem here is, people read the bible and interpret the text differently, so that argument – 'because the Bible says so' is insufficient in itself.

Why don't we just take the Word for what it is and not interpret it the way want it to be?

I think that temporal faults having eternal consequences cannot be conceived as a 'good'. The punishment will always be disproportionate, and punishment with no chance of repentance serves no good end ...

Maybe in the mind of man, but God's thoughts are above ours.... What do you mean by 'good'?

I follow the Bible and the Word of Christ, so I believe in hell and hope it is empty, and have faith in Christ's ability to rescue every fallen soul. I am called to love my neighbour, and anyone who loves their neighbour would not consign them to eternal suffering.

We know the hell is most definitely not going to be empty, The Word tells us "You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way."
Thomas, since you follow the Bible, explain to me how do we receive Salvation... what must we do to be Saved from eternal damnation?

Then why Jesus?

Yes my friend, Jesus is the Lamb, through Him we are made children of God. Without Him we stand before God as sinners to be judged by Him...... and the wages of sin is death, not life.

Is God not merciful? Yes He is. Is God righteous?

Did Jesus not tell us to forgive? Yes He did.

Who are we to condemn? God alone condemns humans. Sinners cannot condemn sinners. “He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.”

Who are we to judge another? We should not condemn the person, but rather the deeds.

 

[Yahweh kid]

I don't agree .. it is dependent on the path we tread.
If we incline towards evil, regardless of professed creed, then that is the path we end up on.

..so we need (for salvation)
1. a strong faith
2. our good deeds outweigh our bad deeds

Either one alone is not sufficient.
I hear these claims from various beliefs (Muslim, Christian etc.), claiming if you don't believe as they believe, you will not be saved. They cannot all be right.

Most probably, none of them are .. G-d will judge between them on the Day of Judgement.

I believe we can agree to disagree.....

The devil is a deceiver, he leads people away from the Truth....... why are there so many different beliefs, cults, sects, etc. is the question we should ask ourselves. Looking at all the beliefs there is only one that stands out.... that is Christianity.

Who is your Lord?