I would like to know what the latest perception is among the jewish of the mashiach and prophecy. Do you encounter prohecy in the synogogue and prayer groups? Is the messiah still expected? Will it be an earthly human messiah in Israel or a supernatural one? I'm just curious. In non jewish circles there is much unknown about this subject.
Maschiach and prophecy
- Thread starter didymus
- Start date
didymus said:
The traditional view is the same as it's always been. Unfortunately the most thorough material I have about hamoshiach is counter-missionary and so rather than simply presenting information about Jewish beliefs it is also showing how Christian beliefs and Jewish ones don't mesh together. So I am going to C&P the explicit answer to your question so you don't have to click the link if it satisfies your question.
Liberal Jews (among whom I am numbered) may believe that there will be no moshiach and only a messianic age, which may vary from the one described biblically. Or that none of it is true at all. Or that this is simply an ideal we can all work towards.
If I understand this correctly, yes, there is mention of these prophecies in the liturgy. But the moshiach is not what I would call a pillar of Judaism. It's not something that gets the same focus the idea of Christ does in Christianity.
Only human. We do not believe God can be limited in time or space. So just as with Moses, it will be God working the miracles for someone who is entirely human.
Well I hope this answers some of your questions.
Dauer
Thank you for that explanation. I find this intersting, especially the part that people will look to the Jews for assistance and a renewed interest in Torah. This is quite evident in these days.
As for prophecy I wondered if there was active prophecying in the synogogues. Do members pray and receive revelation from God? If so is it shared with each other and accepted among the mainstream?
As for prophecy I wondered if there was active prophecying in the synogogues. Do members pray and receive revelation from God? If so is it shared with each other and accepted among the mainstream?
In general (there have been dissenters on this issue) the traditional understanding is that prophecy can happen only under certain conditions. I don't remember them all, but one of them is that the majority of the Jewish people lives in Israel. At one time there were supposed to have been countless numbers of prophets but towards the end of the prophetic era there were very few.
I don't know much about this period of time but some other people on this board might.
Dauer
NewAgeNerd
Goal: Orthodox Jew
Ahh, the messiah in Judaism. As a newly Re-converted Jew myself, this has been a topic that I have asked about with great enthusiasam. As I understand it we believe that the messiah will be a great leader. He will rise from his place of birth, and lead all Jews from their exile back to Israel. Once there he will negotiate peace for the entire world and unite Humanity. At this point there will be greatly extended lifetimes on this planet. It is then believed that there will be a lengthy period of peace under his and his children's leadership. All beings will be united in their worship of G-d. Humans will still be humans however, and we will still have jobs and tasks to do. There will be no poverty and all human beings would be blessed. As to the more mundane things, the Messiah will be a regular human being, born of a mother or father and descended from King David. He will not change the laws of the Torah and he will be well versed in both oral and biblical law. That is the Orthodox perspective anyways. Orthodox people seem to believe the coming of the messiah is imminent due to a number of biblical prophecies that have been fulfilled, one such one describes a time when people seperated by thousands of miles will be nieghbors(the internet).
NewAgeNerd
Goal: Orthodox Jew
Jewish prophecy is a very interesting topic as well. For a prophet to be valid in Judaism, they must fulfill a number of well defined criteria, ex. A Prophet must make multiple valid prophecies. If a prophet has predicted a few events correctly, their word is accepted as prophetic. As described earlier, it is believed that the farther we get away from the revealing of the Torah at Mt. Sinai, the less spirtually connected people are. This is why prophecy has disapeared in the modern era. If a prophet were to appear again today, his status as prophet would be evaluated by a Rabbi. Judaism is alive and well with regards to how literally they take the Torah(old testament). All of G-d's original commandments are still observed by the Orthodox and Chassidic communities.
NewAgeNerd, have you been spending a lot of time around the Chabad folk or some other specific community? I don't think the Orthodox community in general thinks the coming of the messiah is imminent, although some groups within the Orthodox might think so. I could be wrong. From what community did you hear this?
Dauer
Dauer
NewAgeNerd
Goal: Orthodox Jew
Imminent was probably not the right word to use. The Jewish people have been waiting for the Messiah since the destruction of the second temple. Whats another couple hundred years of exile? The actual sense that the messiah could come "tommorow" is a chassidist point of view. The larger orthodox community definitely believes in the messiah(it is a pillar of Jewish faith), but they might not use the word imminent when describing his arrival. Though I think I will ask an orthodox Rabbi when next I meet with one.
EDIT: here pillar of Jewish faith is in reference to the 13 principals of Jewish faith as enumerated by the Ramban.
EDIT: here pillar of Jewish faith is in reference to the 13 principals of Jewish faith as enumerated by the Ramban.
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precept
Guest
If this "man" is just any "man", then he must enjoy a special favor from G-d to be so chosen as Moshiach
This "man", Moshiach would have had to be given special powers from G-d, im order for him to destroy "evil and tyranny". "Evil and tyranny" as exist in our present world is so pervasive that it touches each and every human that has ever lived. And for evil and tyranny "not to stand before the "man", Moshiach, he himself can't also be human.
The prophet king David himself states in Psalm 51:5 that he was "shapen in iniquity and in sin did his mother conceive him". I dare say that king David speakes for each of us human born iin sin, as we enter our earthly sojourn. Thus this "man", if he was human would be no different....He himself would also have in his own body the very "evil" he presumes to destroy....making any mere human unqualified to be Moshiach"
That this is true must be the test for all who claim to be "Moshiach".
This speaks to the fact that all the kingdoms of earth would have to be held hostages by the kingdom of "Moshiach". For this to be fact, each of the kingdoms of the world would owe their entire allegiance to the kingdom of Moshaich. And since "all evil and tyranny" would have been destroyed by "Moshiach", then each and every kingdom of the world would have to be in subjection to "Moshiach".
Since all "evil and tyranny" are destroyed by Moshiach, there is therefore no need for his being a "messenger of peace"; Wars and acrimony exist only where evil exists.
For the above to be true; "Moshiach" can't be human! There is no human who can cause the phenomenon of dying to cease....and to date, there is no country on earth that can prevent hunger among, even its own subjects; no matter how rich such a nation maybe.
Only a supernatural power; and not now in existence could impose such a will indescrimately on all the super powers of this world.
This statement identifies the true source of power as enjoyed by Moshaic. This makes Moshaich as G-d's emmissary; this affording Moshiach super powers over "death", "evil and tyranny". Only before the G-d of the universe will all nations come into subjection...And only the G-d of the unverse can decree peace to the entire world at one and the same time.
True; but only if the Jews follow "Moshiach" who himself must be G-d in order to be "Moshiach".
This makes my point about Moshiach being G-d. Only G-d can bring back the dead to life.
Again taken in the right context; no evil can exist in the kingdom of Moshiach; hence no person can be "evil" while being a citizen of Moshiach's kingdom. Only in G-d's kingdom is there no evil. As a consequence, even if the Jews were to "return to their homeland"; and if such a homeland existed on earth; such homeland would have to be completely free of all evil...an impossiblity, considering king David's statement re all humans are inherently evil.
Again; see the answer above. Anything that speakes of "eternity" as in "eternal joy and gladness", cannot be referring to "the things of sinful humanity" or "things" earthly.
Precept,
Welcome to the site.
Why does God need a superman to do all these things? Moses rose his staff and the waters split, but this was God's doing and not the doing of Moses. There is no need for a superman. Just a guy.
Dauer
Welcome to the site.
Why does God need a superman to do all these things? Moses rose his staff and the waters split, but this was God's doing and not the doing of Moses. There is no need for a superman. Just a guy.
Dauer
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precept
Guest
dauer said:
Throughout the history of Judaism, God used lots of "guys" but just to do "guy things". Moses was one of those "guys"; as was king David, Solomon, and Abraham and Joseph, just to name a few. None of those "guys", however, was able to bring back from the dead anyone. Nor was any able to have in subjection all the governments of the entire world, in conjunction with bringing in everlasting peace and making every human not only free fom sin; but never entertaining the desire to sin.
God caused a deceiving "guy" Jacob to acquire his just wages from his theiving, deceiving uncle Laban, by causing "spotted goats" to be born to pregnant goats simply by their drinking water in which was placed a "spotted rod". In similar fashion God gave powers to whomsoever He will to acheive purposes that are entirely limited to humanity. However, "peace on the entire earth is not achievable as long as humans continue to be born sinners. Hence the purposes of God as they relate to Moshiach have not been entrusted to mere "guys"{/U]
precept
Is this an actual Jewish interpretation?
If it is a Christian one it may be better to post a new thread on the Christianity board, as this is a thread asking for a Jewish perception of Moschiah.
If it is a Christian one it may be better to post a new thread on the Christianity board, as this is a thread asking for a Jewish perception of Moschiah.
P
precept
Guest
dauer said:
Throughout the history of Judaism, God used lots of "guys" but just to do "guy things". Moses was one of those "guys"; as was king David, Solomon, and Abraham and Joseph, just to name a few. None of those "guys", however, was able to bring back from the dead anyone. Nor was any able to have in subjection all the governments of the entire world, in conjunction with bringing in everlasting peace and making every human not only free fom sin; but never entertaining the desire to sin.
God caused a deceiving "guy" Jacob to acquire his just wages from his theiving, deceiving uncle Laban, by causing "spotted goats" to be born to pregnant goats simply by their drinking water in which was placed a "spotted rod". In similar fashion God gave powers to whomsoever He will to acheive purposes that are entirely limited to humanity. However, "peace on the entire earth is not achievable as long as humans continue to be born sinners. Hence the purposes of God as they relate to Moshiach have not been entrusted to mere "guys"{/U]
precept
P
precept
Guest
dauer said:
Throughout the history of Judaism, God used lots of "guys" but just to do "guy things". Moses was one of those "guys"; as was king David, Solomon, and Abraham and Joseph, just to name a few. None of those "guys", however, was able to bring back from the dead anyone. Nor was any able to have in subjection all the governments of the entire world, in conjunction with bringing in everlasting peace and making every human not only free fom sin; but never entertaining the desire to sin.
God caused a deceiving "guy" Jacob to acquire his just wages from his theiving, deceiving uncle Laban, by causing "spotted goats" to be born to pregnant goats simply by their drinking water in which was placed a "spotted rod". In similar fashion God gave powers to whomsoever He will to acheive purposes that are entirely limited to humanity. However, "peace on the entire earth is not achievable as long as humans continue to be born sinners. Hence the purposes of God as they relate to Moshiach have not been entrusted to mere "guys"{/U]
precept
So you're saying that if it seems like a person does something remarkable that violates the laws of probability and perhaps nature, that it's just a guy, unless that thing they're doing is one of the specific things you've mentioned?
Whatever you say precept. Seems like you're just limiting the powers of God independant of man and limiting God in time and space in order to construct an idol.
Dauer
Whatever you say precept. Seems like you're just limiting the powers of God independant of man and limiting God in time and space in order to construct an idol.
Dauer