When you've lost your Faith

[Achilleion]

How do you work on getting it back when you don't trust any forms of modern Christianity? What I mean by that is I feel the true message has gotten lost and modern churches are more like Tony Robbins self help seminars.
Besides that everything seems geared towards couples and families, churches are so focused on their own futures, they appear to craft all of their messages around them. The last time I went to church I walked out feeling spiritually empty, In the 5 years I invested in this church there was nothing in the messages about salvation, they never mentioned that 5 letter word "Satan" Never discuss prophecy, every discussion is on giving, generosity, being courteous. I'm like, what about God?

Are other churches this dry spiritually? I moved over to Gnosticism and the beliefs of the Cathars because it was very spiritual and there's absolutely nothing commercial about it. Anyone have similar experiences in church? I'm trying to find my way back but the path is difficult, most Pastors seem more concerned about sending their daughters to college than anything else.

 

[wil]

I was similar in my loss for years, I felt called yet disappointed in every place I tried.

Capitalism, hypocrisy and Sunday fashion show seemed to reign supreme, I didn't feel welcomed, quite the opposite.

I developed into my own thing, but what is always missing without "organized" religion is community...I think that is what I craved more than anything. But then you run into what felt more cultist than commune.

 

[mangalvaar]

How do you work on getting it back when you don't trust any forms of modern Christianity? What I mean by that is I feel the true message has gotten lost

Hi there. If I were a disciple of Jesus of Nazareth and did not trust any modern forms of Christianity, I would look for something unlike them, and usually there is something out there.

One thing out there is the Rastafari movement. Many Rastas believe in Yeshua, they are all about seeking the truth for oneself, they value genuine spirituality, and they have community. Other than Rastafari, there is also Jesuanism, which is about following the teachings of Yeshua. Jesuans look to the gospel books rather than the other NT writings, and they tend not to identify with Christianity, which they consider the religion of Paul of Tarsus.

What would you say is the true message that has gotten lost?

I hope this post is helpful to some extent.

 

[Thomas]

How do you work on getting it back when you don't trust any forms of modern Christianity?

As a cradle Catholic who wandered off, travelled around, then returned in my 30s, my interests – the Patristic Era writings – shaped the type of church I was looking for. There's an element of elitism there, I recognise that, but also an element of spiritual disposition, so I was happy with that.

So I looked for a church that showed at least some reference to 'traditional' Christianity, and found one, a Dominican Priory, not far from where I lived. There were also a couple of parishes, close and not so close, that had their own attractions – the Latin Liturgy, theologically-informed homilies, the 'bells and smells' ...

There's still a debate within myself regarding Roman (western) v Orthodox (eastern) Christianity. My personal theology is Orthodox rather than Roman, but the big issue is orthodox churches I find tend to be very ethnically-oriented ...

The last time I went to church I walked out feeling spiritually empty ...

I'm never quite sure what 'effect' going to church is supposed to have. The Liturgy is a Mystery, I get that – or rather, I look for a church that treats the Liturgy as a Mystery – but I'm not sure what the effect of an engagement in the Mysteries is supposed to produce.

In my years as a sort-of Hermeticist I came into contact with 'natures' or 'forces' or 'powers' that were experiential, but I regard them as 'natural', whereas I regard the Christian Mysteries as meta-natural, thus transcending all that.

In the 5 years I invested in this church there was nothing in the messages about salvation, they never mentioned that 5 letter word "Satan" Never discuss prophecy, every discussion is on giving, generosity, being courteous. I'm like, what about God?

This is when I shake my head ... what on earth is going on here?

Having said that, I would expect a church to major on salvific love, on repentance and metanoia ('a transformation of being') – the stuff Jesus was banging on about all the time.

I wouldn't want satan to figure is any major sense, really.

Prophecy ... again I'm not sure what prophecy, other than the idea of human reconciliation, recapitulation and resurrection.

"Jesus shared our humanity so that we might share in His divinity" – that kind of thing.

I moved over to Gnosticism and the beliefs of the Cathars because it was very spiritual and there's absolutely nothing commercial about it.

You'd have to discuss what ideas one sees in Gnosticism or Catharism that were reflective of Jesus' teachings – the duality that is fundamental to both, and the entirely negative view of the physical cosmos is not at all Christic.

Anyone have similar experiences in church? I'm trying to find my way back but the path is difficult ...

The hardest I found is loving my neighbour – when the person next to me in the pew professes the same faith as I do, then outside comes out with something utterly racist or judgemental – comparing the two, loving God is easy, loving one's neighbour is a task.

I was talking on this topic with someone I knew, a monk, and he laughed and suggested I tried living in a monastic community and see how long I'd last! When you enter the community, you're allotted your place in the choir. There you will stand, between the same two people, for as long as you all do live ... and if, for example, the brother to your left cannot sing in tune, or the brother to your right has some annoying little tick or habit ... these little irritations can become major over time ... that is a test of love that calls for a total change of mindset.

 

[Achilleion]

You'd have to discuss what ideas one sees in Gnosticism or Catharism that were reflective of Jesus' teachings – the duality that is fundamental to both, and the entirely negative view of the physical cosmos is not at all Christic.

The Gnostics believed Jesus came here to teach us to to tap into the divine spark that's in all of us, and salvation is finding Gnosis with his divine energy. Sounds like Spiritualism, but these beliefs are actually from 1st century AD. Salvation brought your energy in line with God's and stopped the endless cycle of reincarnation that all humans endure. All of this was declared heresy by the Roman church.

 

[Achilleion]

What would you say is the true message that has gotten lost?

The spirituality of all of it, the end game of Christianity, what we'll have to endure to attain that. What they preach is how to be like Jesus, which is a good thing, but it's presented in such an unemotional fashion. Too much like being in school.

 

[wil]

The spirituality of all of it, the end game of Christianity, what we'll have to endure to attain that. What they preach is how to be like Jesus, which is a good thing, but it's presented in such an unemotional fashion. Too much like being in school.

There is some groundwork (school) to get thru for most belief systems eh?

 

[Thomas]

The Gnostics believed Jesus came here to teach us to to tap into the divine spark that's in all of us ...

There's a number of issues here:

The foremost is there is no single, unified, Gnostic doctrine, the various schools each developed their own particularities, albeit sometimes sharing a common cosmology – so in addressing that, one would have to discuss this gnostic doctrine in relation to that; the origin of being according to Basilides compared to the same idea in Valentinus, for example – I'm not intimately conversant with either, so I'd have to refer to texts and textbooks if we should choose to discuss the issue further.

But certainly the message of Jesus is the Spirit is within, indeed that He (as God) is the source and origin of being and He (as Logos) is the point at which the formless manifests itself as, and in, Creation.

The Prologue of John, the Hymn of Colossians, or generally speaking, both Paul and John are inarguably 'orthodox gnostics'; gnostic in the sense that they both speak of 'mysteries', orthodox in the sense, of course, that orthodoxy sees itself as the right transmission of their doctrines.

In terms of how close, or how 'true' that transmission stands, then that's another question. But the all-too prevalent idea that 'orthodoxy' is bad because it's 'orthodox, while 'gnostic' is good because it's contrary, is rather naive and subject to sociopolitical rather than theological insights.

... and salvation is finding Gnosis with his divine energy.

We-e-e-ll – again, what Gnosis is one talking about, and I'm not sure what 'his divine energy' means? Jesus? In which case the energy is love.

Sounds like Spiritualism ...

I would hope so! There is no Christianity without spirit!

... but these beliefs are actually from 1st century AD.

The sources would need to be reviewed.

Salvation brought your energy in line with God's and stopped the endless cycle of reincarnation that all humans endure.

That's not 1st century. Certainly not 'reincarnation' as we understand it in the West.

All of this was declared heresy by the Roman church.

Was it, though?

D'you know the 'Roman Church' (nor any, as far as I know) said nothing about reincarnation for 2,000 years, because it was never an issue. The question only came up late in the last century, when certain assumptions started to do the rounds.

 

[Thomas]

But I sympathise with your situation.

Some time ago (2014, I just checked) I began to say that it seemed to me that American Christianity sees Jesus Christ more like John Wayne than Jesus Christ ... but then I've not lived in the US, sop have no experience to speak of. However, David Bentley Hart does, and I offer you this from a post he made many moons ago:

"... Christianity never succeeded in America. Most Americans think of themselves as Christians. But the only religion in America that ever flourished was America. And it twists everything into its own image... (Christianity is) being turned into a version of the American religion, which is about civil order, prosperity, capitalism, a moral code that is not premised on forgiveness so much as upon judgement."

 

[Thomas]

The turning point of Christianity is the Resurrection ... without that, the Jesus Movement would probably have been counted as just another Jewish apocalyptic cult around just prior to the fall of Jerusalem.

The Resurrection was not, as resurrection was in the literature of the Greco-Roman world, the judgement of an individual and their reward, by elevation to the pantheon of the Gods – Jesus' resurrection was God’s judgement of the world, and as such it was regarded as a direct assault on the Archons that enslave it. Hence the skies growing dark, the earthquake, the torn veil – all symbols of the Prince of this World rallying his forces to snuff out the 'Light' of Christ, and his radical failure to do so.

The Resurrection transcends the limit of their preserve. Jesus' declaration of Himself as the God who at once and simultaneously is beyond the Kosmos, who exceeds it by every degree, and yet chooses to dwell there in the midst of it all.

The resurrection testifies to the God who is truly and infinitely apeiron (‘boundless’ – the arche anarchos of the Fathers, the Principle without Principle) and who crosses all boundaries without ceasing to be form and life and beauty.

The resurrection is an apocalypse, not in the sense of 'a revelation' or 'an uncovering', but an interruption of the story they tell, indeed an irruption into that story (Kosmos) from outside of it, and the beginning of an entirely new telling of the story of the world.

Nowhere is this more poignantly told than at the end of the Gospel of Mark – Jesus, no mere man, mysteriously appears:
"And he (John the Baptist) made his proclamation, saying, "There comes hereafter one mightier than I, regarding whom I am not fit to bend down and loosen the thong of his sandals." (1:7) and as mysteriously, disappears:
"And entering the tomb they saw a young man sitting to the right, clothed in a white robe, and they were amazed. But he says to them, "Do not be amazed. You seek Jesus the Nazarene, who has been crucified. He has been raised; he is not here. Look: the place where they laid him. But go tell his disciples and Peter that he precedes you into Galilee; there you will see him, as he told you." And, going out, they fled from the tomb, for trembling and bewilderment had taken hold of them; and they said nothing to anyone; for they were afraid." (16:5-8)

The tomb is the symbol par excellence of metaphysical totality – marking the limit not only between life and death but between being and nonbeing, body and soul, history and myth, meaning and meaninglessness, the physical and the spiritual, time and eternity, subject and object – a terminus of the world as an enclosed totality, and its transcendence.

The Risen Christ respects no boundaries – He solves them.

Christ’s resurrection refutes every form of gnostic consolation by its utter transcendence those schemes of salvation speaks of the spark trapped in an evil world; a salvation that merely escapes the fate of a Kosmos governed by the Archon of Death and the hierarchy of powers, principalities and dominions, a salvation for the pneumatic alone, who was never part of this Kosmos anyway ... an escape of the individual which leaves the world as it was (the flight of the alone to the Alone).

The Gnostic sought to escape the world, Christ transforms it (2 Corinthians 3:18), makes all things new (Revelations 21:5), and reconcile all things to Himself (Colossians 1:20), so that He may be all in all (1 Corinthians 12:6, 15:28, Ephesians 1:23, 4:4, Colossians 3:11 and more) – hence all creation groans in the travail, the wait for its release from the bonds of the Archon and of the Age (Romans 8:22).

 

[Achilleion]

That's not 1st century. Certainly not 'reincarnation' as we understand it in the West.

The Cathars believed in reincarnation, and their main belief system was based on Gnosticism.

 

[Achilleion]

Was it, though?

D'you know the 'Roman Church' (nor any, as far as I know) said nothing about reincarnation for 2,000 years, because it was never an issue. The question only came up late in the last century, when certain assumptions started to do the rounds.

it's probably still seen as a favorable by the Roman church, The man who defeated Gnosticism: St. Irenaeus - National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception

And as far the the Cathars, they were wiped out by Pope Innocent III in what was an act of genocide called the Albigensian Crusade, more were later slaughtered in an Inquisition. 1.5 million in all were murdered. The Cathars are said to have procured the secret of achieving Gnosis with the divine, releasing them from the endless cycle of reincarnation. The Pope wiped them out to cover it up.

 

[Thomas]

The Cathars believed in reincarnation,

Yes, so it seems, but again, not the same way as Buddhism, for example.

... and their main belief system was based on Gnosticism.

Well yes – but by now it's a gnosis a long way removed from the original gnostic roots.

The problem today with Gnosticism is ... which Gnosticism?

Paul was a gnostic. John was a gnostic, which is why Paul and John figure so heavily in gnosticism – the Cathars, notably, dismissed Paul altogether, while they made a big deal of John – and the fact that they did not read Paul in a gnostic sense casts a shadow on their depth of insight.

The works of the early Gnostic masters – Basilides say, or Valentinus – stand on a par with orthodox exegetes.

But as time wore on, there is a tendency, in opening the doors, as it were, to non-Christian speculation, that Gnosticism began to move away from its original sources – Paul and John – and in so doing becomes increasingly less Christian, indeed less anything, but more syncretic, and more complicated and fantastical.

 

[Thomas]

it's probably still seen as a favorable by the Roman church

I'm not sure what you see as favourable?

The man who defeated Gnosticism: St. Irenaeus - National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception

Well that's somewhat overblown ... Gnosticism survived quite happily long after Irenaeus ...

And as far the the Cathars, they were wiped out by Pope Innocent III in what was an act of genocide called the Albigensian Crusade, more were later slaughtered in an Inquisition. 1.5 million in all were murdered.

For sure a very bad affair that casts a dark shadow on Christendom, and I do not by any stretch defend the Church, in fact I condemn the Church for its actions.

The Cathars are said to have procured the secret of achieving Gnosis with the divine, releasing them from the endless cycle of reincarnation. The Pope wiped them out to cover it up.

That I find unlikely ... the reasons for the crusade are more tragic and more mundane. If they had procured the secret (as gnostics have declared, from the very earliest, yet no two are the same), then how would we know? And if the pope sought to stamp out this knowledge, how would we know that?

There is much about the Cathars that is commendable – they seemed like goodly neighbours, while the conduct of the institution that went to war against them is despicable.

The Cathars I like, their theology, their version of Gnosticism, if you will, I do not.

 

[Yahweh kid]

How do you work on getting it back when you don't trust any forms of modern Christianity? What I mean by that is I feel the true message has gotten lost and modern churches are more like Tony Robbins self help seminars.
Besides that everything seems geared towards couples and families, churches are so focused on their own futures, they appear to craft all of their messages around them. The last time I went to church I walked out feeling spiritually empty, In the 5 years I invested in this church there was nothing in the messages about salvation, they never mentioned that 5 letter word "Satan" Never discuss prophecy, every discussion is on giving, generosity, being courteous. I'm like, what about God?

Are other churches this dry spiritually? I moved over to Gnosticism and the beliefs of the Cathars because it was very spiritual and there's absolutely nothing commercial about it. Anyone have similar experiences in church? I'm trying to find my way back but the path is difficult, most Pastors seem more concerned about sending their daughters to college than anything else.

Hi,

Are you baptized according to Act 8:37?

 

[Achilleion]

Hi,

Are you baptized according to Act 8:37?

Yes

 

[Yahweh kid]

Yes

Awesome, I got baptised as a baby, but I could not make Jesus my lord and Savior... so I got baptized at the age of 40. I was blessed to go to Israel, to the Jordan river, to walk on the land Jesus did. My friend, if you truly want to have a relationship with Jesus, you need to get to know Him, you probably know Matthew 7:21-23. For me, prayer is not at a certain time, it is all the time, for He is always with me.
Churches are all fallible.... but if the pastor preach the Truth and the worship is glorifying our God, I believe we can grow in the spirit. It is ok to seek a church where you feel welcomed and you can find brothers and sisters in Christ.
All the best.

 

[wil]

The turning point of Christianity is the Resurrection ... without that, the Jesus Movement would probably have been counted as just another Jewish apocalyptic cult around just prior to the fall of Jerusalem.

Well I for one am glad that kept it around long enough for me to find my way enough to discard it.

I mean allegorically fascinating and valuable, something I need to be real history, not even.

I guess that's your American Christianity for ya we can thank the writer of the Declaration of Independence and the Jefferson Bible.

 

[moralorel]

Well, what does the Bible say? That's where I would look first.

 

[EricPH]

The hardest I found is loving my neighbour

Jesus loves us as he loves himself, he died for us despite all our failings and differences. Thank you Lord.

Passing that love on is the real challenge, as in Matthew 25,34

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’