Jesus Mythical and Real?

[Longfellow]

By “mythical, I don’t mean not real. By “real,” I don’t mean historical.



I’ve been thinking about a possibility that doesn’t qualify as either mythicism or historicism, but it seems more likely to me than either one alone.



I’m imagining that the earliest Jewish disciples already had all the cosmic categories including pre‑existent heavenly agents, Wisdom motifs, Logos‑like intermediaries, and exalted redeemer figures, because these were part of Hellenized Jewish cosmology before Jesus began teaching.



So the “mythic” part (the cosmic categories) is older than the teachings of Jesus and already shaped by Greek philosophy. Even so, the idea of identifying all that with Jesus came from Jesus himself, not explicitly but because he implicitly applied the same scriptures to himself that were used in Jewish cosmology. Then Paul learned that from the disciples that he interrogated before his conversion.



If that’s true, then the cosmic Christ wasn’t invented by Paul, and he wasn’t invented by later Christians. He was Hellenized Jewish cosmology applied to a real historical teacher by Jewish disciples seeing him apply the same scriptures to himself that they used in their cosmology.

 

[Thomas]

I’m imagining that the earliest Jewish disciples already had all the cosmic categories including pre‑existent heavenly agents, Wisdom motifs, Logos‑like intermediaries, and exalted redeemer figures, because these were part of Hellenized Jewish cosmology before Jesus began teaching.

The Jews certainly did, with מָשִׁיחַ mashiach ('messiah') and also גָּאַל gā'al ('redeemer'), but the Greco-Roman world I'm not so sure. Certainly there were demigods and heroes who saved themselves or were saved, or 'saved' someone close, but not on the scale of the Hebrew idea, I think?

So the “mythic” part (the cosmic categories) is older than the teachings of Jesus and already shaped by Greek philosophy.

Again, you'd have to clarify what you regard as 'mythical'.

For my part, I’ve had experiences that fall outside the realm of the 'normal'. Soe I can explain, some I cannot.

I do happen to think that 'materialistic naturalism' – that mind, consciopusness, etc., is simply the fruit, or even a by-product, of what are essentially chemical and mechanical processes is fairly lame as an explanation of the world. It fails on numerous levels.

Believing in God, for the want of a term; in the material world as (at heart) a theophany, in Creation as embodiment, I accept there is a realm of experience that lies outside the remit of the natural scioences to explain, and that insisting theat can't be so because the natural sciences can't explain them is a rather silly argument.

So I do not find the idea of 'miracles' outrageous, and see the mythical as addressing something in a manner more suited to its nature than any other stumbling attempt at explanation.

Even so, the idea of identifying all that with Jesus came from Jesus himself, not explicitly but because he implicitly applied the same scriptures to himself that were used in Jewish cosmology. Then Paul learned that from the disciples that he interrogated before his conversion.

Agreed.

If that’s true, then the cosmic Christ wasn’t invented by Paul, and he wasn’t invented by later Christians. He was Hellenized Jewish cosmology applied to a real historical teacher by Jewish disciples seeing him apply the same scriptures to himself that they used in their cosmology.

Yep.

The question then being, if this started with Jesus, as it clearly did, then why did people believe Him?

 

[Longfellow]

The question then being, if this started with Jesus, as it clearly did, then why did people believe Him?

Part of the explanation might be the resurrection, but I think that would only convince the ones that He actually visited. Possibly what convinced people most of all was seeing the new kind of community life that He started in Capernaum, and the power of the Holy Spirit in that. Another part of it might have been seeing the parallels between His story and the cosmology they grew up with.

It’s an open question for me how much the miracles and supernatural powers were literal. I don’t consider any of it impossible.

When I say Hellenized Jewish cosmology, I don’t mean that the Jews added any figures from the Greek/Roman gods, just that their ways of thinking about their own figures were influenced by them.

 

[Thomas]

Part of the explanation might be the resurrection, but I think that would only convince the ones that He actually visited.

Well then surely the faith would have fizzled out with the passing of time?

Possibly what convinced people most of all was seeing the new kind of community life that He started in Capernaum, and the power of the Holy Spirit in that.

But do we actually know anything about the community in Capernaum?

And Jesus was quite scathing about Capernaum for its lack of faith (Luke 10:13-15)? In John 6 especially, by the end of the chapter, many who had been followers turned away.

As for the power of the Holy Spirit – that starts in Jerusalem at Pentecost, and Jerusalem was where the Jesus movement was centred.

 

[Longfellow]

But do we actually know anything about the community in Capernaum?

That depends on what you mean by “know.” i see a lot between the lines in what happened in and around Peter’s house. Anyway, we don’t actually know anything, by any definition. Everything I say is my inference to the best explanation.

And Jesus was quite scathing about Capernaum for its lack of faith (Luke 10:13-15)? In John 6 especially, by the end of the chapter, many who had been followers turned away.

But not all, and that actually strengthens my point. The contrast between the community of disciples and the surrounding society would be part of what attracted people into it.

 

[Longfellow]

As for the power of the Holy Spirit – that starts in Jerusalem at Pentecost, and Jerusalem was where the Jesus movement was centred.

One possible explanation that I see for the growth and spread of the discipleship is the power and fruits of the Holy Spirit in its community life, and that started in and around Peter’s house in Capernaum. It might also have been facilitated by the scriptures that were associated with Jewish cosmology being the same ones that Jesus applied to himself.

Until now I was favoring early dates for the Synoptics and Acts. Now later dates are looking more plausible to me, with the source writings being earlier, and contemporaneous with Jesus and/or the apostles. The Synoptics and Acts would have been written under the patronage of the emerging bureaucracy, and underplayed the growth and spread of the Spirit-filled community life.

 

[Thomas]

One possible explanation that I see for the growth and spread of the discipleship is the power and fruits of the Holy Spirit in its community life, and that started in and around Peter’s house in Capernaum.

I'm not trying to disagree with you, but you offer very little evidence to agree with, I think that's the problem.

With regard to the Holy Spirit, that seems indisputably tied to the Pentecost event in Jerusalem. We can pre-empt that with the 'Pentecost of the Gentiles' in the house of Cornelius the Centurion in Caesarea (Acts 10 et seq) – in fact, I think the evidence is stronger for Caesarea as a 'starting place' than it is for Capernaum – the latter is not mentioned once in Acts.

It might also have been facilitated by the scriptures that were associated with Jewish cosmology being the same ones that Jesus applied to himself.

One is inclined to ask what other scriptures and cosmology would Jesus have applied to Himself?

Logically, the Jewish sort was the only kind He knew.

 

[Thomas]

Until now I was favoring early dates for the Synoptics and Acts. Now later dates are looking more plausible to me, with the source writings being earlier, and contemporaneous with Jesus and/or the apostles.

That's a hard one, obviously, as we lack so much evidence.

The Synoptics and Acts would have been written under the patronage of the emerging bureaucracy, and underplayed the growth and spread of the Spirit-filled community life.

That's even harder, as there was no 'emerging bureaucracy' at the time.

There's a lot of supposition going on here ...