Kabbalah as Meta-science? What do you think about this?

[human1111]

What do you think about this "interesting" article?
http://www.kabbalah.info/engkab/science_and_kabbalah/articles_by_other_scientists/the_meta_science_of_kabbalah_and_the_scientific_method_of_perception.htm

(unfortunately it is too long to be posted here). It is quite complex and good. Is it even possible to bridge the gap between spirituality and science?
Thanks.

 

[Postmaster]

I would appreciate if anyone could give me a brief explaination on regards to Kabbalah, all I really know is that it's an ancient faith and a sect of Judaism? Feel free to tell me more Tryed to read the article but I lost interest, apologises.

 

[dauer]

Kabbalah is not a sect of Judaism, but rather Jewish mysticism. That is how it is sometimes used. Sometimes it is used more specifically as a certain form of Jewish mysticism that most scholars would agree saw its first major work with the publication of sefer ha-bahir around the 12th c.

The kabbalah centre is not Jewish, but many are confused about this.

 

[Postmaster]

Is the Jewish people and the Jewish faith one and the same thing? There race is there faith? So to say

Kabbalah is not a sect of Judaism, but rather Jewish mysticism.

Is very confusing. Unless I'm wrong about Jewish faith and Jewish race and are actaully 2 totally different things. Hope someone can straighten me on this too. Because if not, it seems as if it is actaully a sect.

 

[bruceg]

This should really get shoved over to the Judaism forum, or maybe Alternative but since it's here...

Kabbalah is not a sect - that is, it's not a separate sub-group of beliefs within Judaism.

It is the mystical component of Judaism. Just as Christianity has angel theory, Judaism has Kabbalah. Kabbalah deals with numeric associations (among other things) .

Since Kabbalah is mysticism, it's been "hijaacked" by other belief systems as well - some of the concepts have been used in "New Age" and other "Pagan" systems. Where the original is mostly concerned with discovering Deity through the mystic (more or less.. I am not a Kabbalist, so get this more or less off-hand), most often the derivatives are concerned with "magic" - causing something to happen. The Kaballah Center is one of the "hot" groups right now, attracting many non-Jews (and some Jews) to their brand of mysticism - which may have nothing to do with the original beyond the name and a couple of swiped concepts. (Of course, they'll claim otherwise).

 

[dauer]

There is no such thing as a Jewish race. People, yes. Race, no. Also, with some small exceptions on the right, there is no such thing as a Jewish sect. There are only denominations, movements. There are groups within Judaism who decide to practice Judaism a little differently from each other. But they will also all agree with each other that they are all Jewish (except for the halachic "legal" issues of conversion and someone becoming Jewish through the father, although it would be against halachah for an Orthodox Jew to question the conversion or parentage of a reform Jew praying next to him) But kabbalah is itself not even a denomination. A person of any denomination may practice kabbalah.

This is actually a good example of how different the system is from the Christian one you are trying to apply to it, because kabbalah is a very different way of looking at things, but a mekubal and a person who thinks kabbalah is nonsense can both go to shul together and pray. And neither will have a problem with that. Well, they might get into a healthy debate once in a while. But they might not. Who knows? It doesn't matter.

Religiously, the practice of Judaism for the observant Jew is fairly similar in all denominations and the liturgy is almost identical in all denominations. The sefardim have a different nusach than the ashkenazim, which means they have some different supplementary material, but sefardic and ashkenazic are not denominations. That has to do with place of origin.

I'm not sure if that clarifies anything or only confuses it more, but just as the separations within Islam and the separations within Hinduism have their own nuanced differences, the same is true with Judaism. It is better to look at each religion as its own entity. But it is also very useful when there are actually close similarities.

I would say that the closest thing to what you are saying is this: that a person who is not religious and does not believe in God is still a Jew. But this is true because the religion says so. It's a religious law that defines who a Jew is. The two are deeply intertwined.

Hope some of that helps.

Dauer

 

[human1111]

Apparently it is some sort of "science"

taken from:
http://kabbalah.info/engkab/book_1/book1eng_ch01.htm

Article

What is Kabbalah​

Kabbalah is an accurate method to investigate and define man’s position in the universe. The wisdom of Kabbalah tells us the reason why man exists, why he is born, why he lives, what the purpose of his life is, where he comes from and where he is going after he completes his life in this world.

Kabbalah is a method of reaching the spiritual world. It teaches us about the spiritual world, and by studying it, we develop another sense. With the help of this sense we can be in touch with the upper worlds.

Kabbalah is not a theoretical study, but a very practical one. Man learns about himself, who he is, what he is like. He learns what he needs to do to change himself stage by stage and step by step. He conducts his research through his inner self.

All experimentation is conducted on himself, within himself. That is why Kabbalah is called “The Hidden Wisdom.” Through Kabbalah a person undergoes internal changes that only he feels and knows are taking place. This activity occurs within a person; it is unique to him, and only he knows about it.

The word Kabbalah comes from the Hebrew word lekabbel, to receive. Kabbalah describes the motives of actions as “the desire to receive.” This desire refers to receiving various kinds of pleasure. In order to receive pleasure, a person is usually willing to invest great effort. The question is, how can one attain the maximum amount of pleasure while paying a minimum price for it? Everyone tries to answer this question in his own way.

There is a certain order to the way the desire to receive develops and grows. In the first stage, man lusts after physical pleasure. Then he seeks money and honor. An even stronger desire makes him thirst for power. He may later develop a desire for spirituality, which is at the peak of the pyramid. A person who recognizes how great his desire for spirituality begins to seek ways of satisfying this desire.

The passage through the stages of the desire to receive makes a person become familiar with his abilities and limitations.

Kabbalah deals with the upper worlds, the roots of our feelings and thoughts, which we cannot grasp. Since we have no control over the worlds, we do not know how and why our feelings and thoughts are created. We wonder at experiences such as sweet, bitter, pleasant, rough and so forth. We are unsuccessful at building scientific tools to examine our feelings, even in the field of psychology, psychiatry and other social disciplines. Behavioral factors remain hidden from our understanding.

Kabbalah is a system for scientifically evaluating our feelings: It takes the total of our feelings and desires, and provides an exact scientific formula for each and every phenomenon, at each level, for every type of understanding and feeling.

This is the work of feelings combined with intellect. It uses, for beginning students, geometry, matrices and diagrams. When studying Kabbalah, they recognize each of their own feelings and begin to understand it. They know what name it should be given according to its power, direction and character.

The wisdom of Kabbalah is an ancient and proven method. Through it, man can receive higher awareness and attain spirituality. This is really his goal in this world. When a person feels a desire for spirituality, he starts to feel a longing for it, and can then develop the desire through the wisdom of Kabbalah that has been provided by the Creator.

Kabbalah is a word that describes the aim of the Kabbalist: to attain everything man is capable of, as a thinking being, the highest of all creatures.

 

[Postmaster]

Loving the information, has cleared a lot for me, thank you all.

 

[dauer]

human,

that sounds very much like any mystical system to me, only these guys have taken the time systematize this particular system using modern methods. They do however, make assumptions, such as the year of the authorship of the Zohar.

In order for their work to be more honest, they would have to also have groups doing the same thing using different mystical system altogether. They would have to make all of the assumptions the traditional mystics of that tradition usually make and see if similar things develop.

Dauer

 

[iBrian]

I have to say, I find the use of pseudo-scientific illustrations looks absolutely trashy - it's hard for me not to interpret it as just another group trying to hijack science and twist it into looking like a justification of a belief system. There is absolutely no call for trying to imitate scientific diagrams when they are clearly not describing a scientific method or investogation.

Kabbalah is a mystical system - it surely works fine enough with its own metaphors and symbols, without trying to cloak itself with the language of other disciplines.

Oh - and human1111, thanks for posting the link, not the entire article.

 

[human1111]

human,

that sounds very much like any mystical system to me, only these guys have taken the time systematize this particular system using modern methods. They do however, make assumptions, such as the year of the authorship of the Zohar.

Isn't that a good thing when a system changes due to changing science and all? I mean the systems (usually religious) that dogmatically remain the same throught the ages, get run over by new discoveries and become ridiculous in modern age... About Authorship of Zohar, the biggest experts hold that it was authored by Shimon Bar Yochai and written by his disciple (2nd century or so). Even Moshe De Leon himself has stated that it was written by Shimon.
Yehuda Ashlag the biggest expert on Zohar has stated that Zohar could not have been authored by anyone other than Shimon. Just like Einstein's theory of relativity was authored by him and not ordinary Joe, same with Zohar. Moshe de Leon was good, but not that good.

In order for their work to be more honest, they would have to also have groups doing the same thing using different mystical system altogether. They would have to make all of the assumptions the traditional mystics of that tradition usually make and see if similar things develop.
Dauer

Well there are dozens of systems existent today and many existed for centuries and even thousands of years, yet none of them created a paradise for ALL of us and we are still divided in our beliefs and many of us are still not sure about the most important questions that bother us all...

 

[dauer]

Isn't that a good thing when a system changes due to changing science and all?

But this Ashlagian kabbalah isn't really changing much. It's just re-wording it for a modern individual. There really isn't much change. In my opinion change is definitely good. But if you want real change, take a look at Jewish Renewal. This article for example on the Divine Feminine:

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/ide...Times/Mysticism_Renewed/Mysticism_Renewal.htm

I mean the systems (usually religious) that dogmatically remain the same throught the ages, get run over by new discoveries and become ridiculous in modern age...

Dogmatically Ashlag hasn't changed much at all. Just re-structured it.

About Authorship of Zohar, the biggest experts hold that it was authored by Shimon Bar Yochai and written by his disciple (2nd century or so).

That's not true. The Orthodox experts all say that. The experts not limited by their dogma say it's by De Leon.

Even Moshe De Leon himself has stated that it was written by Shimon.

Of course! How else to publish writings with automatic credibility? But have you heard of Isaac of Acre? Do you want to know what people not bound by dogma say about the Zohar? Look here then:

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/ide...lah_And_Hasidism/Mysticism_Zohar_Robinson.htm

Yehuda Ashlag the biggest expert on Zohar

According to his own site, yes?

has stated that Zohar could not have been authored by anyone other than Shimon.

But Ashlag is a traditionalist.

Just like Einstein's theory of relativity was authored by him and not ordinary Joe, same with Zohar. Moshe de Leon was good, but not that good.

Have you ever read a very advanced piece of literature with many layers, rich in symbolism? Ashlag isn't giving De Leon the credit he deserves. And even if it is by De Leon, why does that mean it can't be sacred?

Well there are dozens of systems existent today and many existed for centuries and even thousands of years, yet none of them created a paradise for ALL of us and we are still divided in our beliefs and many of us are still not sure about the most important questions that bother us all...

So are you saying this form of kabbalah works for you? That's good. That's wonderful. But that doesn't make it science, nor does it mean that it will work for everybody. What I am saying is that if they're really concerned with showing that Kabbalah is Truth, then they should be also testing other mystical religions in the same ways to show that the same thing doesn't happen with them , or rather, to see what the results will be. I don't think there's one universal way for everybody.

Nachman of Bratslav would have two types of hasidim around him. One group, he would make sure they had a certain amount of doubt in their minds of God so that they constantly longed for God. The other group he would teach simple faith. And he would keep the groups mixed to balance each other out and thus the simple ones would never think they truly knew God and the longing ones would never think they had lost Him. At the same time, he would be working individually with these people on their spiritual development. All people are different. We each find different ways to approach God. But if you've found a way that works for you, Baruch Hashem, that is wonderful.

Dauer