Acts of God

[robocombot]

Are disasters (such as the Asian Tsunami) simply 'Acts of God'?

This is related to questions such as 'why would God create evil' and 'why would God allow suffering' but is distinct.

Christian and Jewish scripture states that (Isaiah 45:7):

I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things.

And the Quran of Islam states (Surah 17:16):

“And when We decide to destroy a town (population), We (first) send a definite order (to obey Allah and be righteous) to those among them [or We (first) increase in number those of its population] who are given the good things of this life. Then, they transgress therein, and thus the word (of torment) is justified against it (them). Then We destroy it with complete destruction”

So based on this it would seem that major Disasters are simply 'Acts of God'.

• Is it as simple as that?
• Should we try to prevent disasters, or are our efforts in vain?
• Is the occurance of disaster directly related to disobediance of Gods commandments?

Thankyou in advance.

 

[path_of_one]

In my belief system, natural disasters are simply... natural. God created Nature to function as an independent system, so I guess in the end the disasters go back to God, but I don't see natural processes as evil/bad. They are necessary in order for Nature to work.

Death, for example, is something that a lot of people think of in a very negative light and think Nature is in an imperfect state because things die, things eat one another, etc. But death is, if you think about it differently, a beautiful process. It liberates our souls and frees up nutrients, space, resources for new life. The cycle of life and death and new life, of things being eaten by other things, which then die and return to the soil to help in the new life of a plant once again... it is profoundly beautiful. The transition is uncomfortable, but the process is so amazing. To think that my atoms will one day be part of a tree...

I think it is humans' self-centered focus that makes disasters appear to be judgments or even "disasters." In reality, these disasters are simply Nature's reorganizing, restructuring, creative process at work. They just appear bad to us because they are destructive. But destruction is necessary for new life and change in the natural world. I think it is wonderful that there are some processes that are beyond human control. We can't control earthquakes, tsunamis, floods, or tornados. It keeps us humble. It keeps us in awe of what is greater than ourselves.

 

[truthseeker]

I agree, path of one.

Not that I want to get far off into talking about Geology but in some places the earth breaks down and swallows (Earthquakes,tsunami) and in other places the earth regurgitates (Volcanism). These are a process that melts down the used materials and then releases nutrients onto the earth. It is violent but if you notice Hawaii, what it is is a volcano risen above sea level and the Hawaiian islands are among the most beautiful because they are so fertile. I think the natural processes appear to be more and more violent because we are stripping the earth, too fast, of its resources and replenishing with man-made materials. If we want to give the explanation back to God, then I say that God created the earth to function in this manner but we cannot appreciate it because the natural processes are intefering with mankind's creations.

Strange, though, how when a flood or a earthquake or tsunami are about to occur, you have this appearingly blessed group of people that knew better and evaded the situation. Now that, my friends, is an Act of God.

 

[lunamoth]

Strange, though, how when a flood or a earthquake or tsunami are about to occur, you have this appearingly blessed group of people that knew better and evaded the situation. Now that, my friends, is an Act of God.

Actually, I would not say that the act of God was those who were fortunate to miss the disaster, but those who come in to help the survivors afterwards.

peace,
lunamoth

 

[InLove]

I suspect that one's viewpoint on this subject might be connected with one's take on original sin, as well as the establishment of the Kingdom of Heaven. If one believes in original sin, then God's act would be in allowing these things to happen for now.

There is a passage in Romans 8:18-27 wherein Paul considers the travail of all creation in anticipation of full reunion with God. I won't type it all out here, but, for me, it is helpful in understanding the subject.

InLove,
InPeace

 

[Bandit]

i believe finding a well balanced understanding of freewill & predestination is the answer for this. I also believe every molecule, shift of sand & movement of drop of water has been accounted for before creation. Wether it be God who moves it or man who moves it.

IOW- When a flood, forest fire, big winds or earthquake hits, it was predestined by God within the function of the earth & cannot be stopped, seeming like a natural occurance & in most ways it is natural for the earth to do this because God has it all timed out.
Now, we have man in the picture. Who seems to slowly destroy the creation & others who try to preserve it. All predestined by God & within that we also see, mans free will.


As for God creating evil, I do not believe He creates it, yet I feel from the very start, that thought of evil (in whatever form) proceeded from the mind of God & He allows it through people or Satan. Otherwise He would not be all knowing & make for a righteous judge. The things in the earth, wether people or other elements will always be on course, even when it seems like the wrong course. IMO

Our ways are not Gods ways. He moves up & down, backward & forward, side to side & flips around & we can never catch up to Him. We will never understand all of His ways. Yet I believe over time God will show us these answers & (in part), through Jesus, we can also learn the mind of God.
This is when our relationship with Him grows & we will find favor with Him, even in our darkest moments when it seems He has forsaken us.

I do not have all the answers Robo, but this is how I have been seeing what you are talking about for a long time.

WITH ALL THY GETTING- GET UNDERSTANDING



Proverbs 4:5-8
Get wisdom, get understanding: forget [it] not; neither decline from the words of my mouth.

Forsake her not, and she shall preserve thee: love her, and she shall keep thee.

Wisdom [is] the principal thing; [therefore] get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

Exalt her, and she shall promote thee: she shall bring thee to honour, when thou dost embrace her.

 

[arthra]

So based on this it would seem that major Disasters are simply 'Acts of God'.

* Is it as simple as that?
* Should we try to prevent disasters, or are our efforts in vain?
* Is the occurance of disaster directly related to disobediance of Gods commandments?

__________________________

I've dealt with this issue by basically saying that God has created this world and ourselves for a purpose... and as a creation we are not privy to all the reasons, but man i think has a responsibility to respond to the challenges of nature as God has given us intelligence and allowed us to develope tools ...

So these great disasters tell more about us as human beings probably than about God Himself...by that I mean it tells us about our greed and faulty understanding of the environment than it does about God's nature.

We call it a disaster when people build their homes along expensive stretches of land that have nice views of the ocean but cannot tolerate much rainfall and so the houses slip into the sea ... whose responsibility is that?

Would we have heard so much about the tsunami in Indonesia had the expensive resort hoels not been built along the shore line and the tsunami wave had not killed so many Western tourists? I somehow doubt it.

Somewhere we have allowed our greed, promotionalism, and stupidity to cloud our reasoning here and rather than assign the responsibility to whom it belongs we want to blame God.

Jesus parable of the man who built his house on the sand literally applies here.

 

[Bandit]

I agree with all you have said here arthra.

Some do blame God. They even blame Him for there own mistakes, but I don't.
I call them ACTS OF PEOPLE. LOL (it is a people problem)
We don't even know what they may be doing to the earth, pumping nuclear into the ground.

I don't think man is going to stop disasters like Tornadoes & Earthquakes, no matter how hard they try. But some inventions help aid people to safety- Like hurricanes. However, I would like to see someone try & stop it.
One lightening bolt to the tower or sun spots, & out goes the grande' technology & communications our generation is built on.

Building on sand & building on a wire is not always reliable in my opinion, like some seem to think. But, the God of heaven & earth is a strong & MIGHTY TOWER...

Here is an article on sunspots & power failure I found interesting. This kind of stuff happens all the time.

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/power_outage_031031.html

 

[Bandit]

& there is this to remember from 2 Chronicles 7.


If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

 

[Nitai]

codes on disasters like tsunami* if God is all good why he arranges disasters like tsunami?
* interestingly in the afflicted areas no one of the Hare Krishna devotees neither died nor disappeared.
* in many other dangerous situations such protection occurred.

* QUESTION: why did God not protect other religious people
* he certainly did protect those who strictly follow pure religious principles
* this is His promise in the Bhagavad-gita.

* QUESTION: why he don't protect those who are not strict in following religious principles.
* the punishment for misconduct is greater to those people who know that something is wrong to do and still they misbehave.

* CONCLUSION: the afflicted areas and actually whole India, in the Vedic literature are called punya-bhumi or the land of piety where people are well aware of religious principles.
* the higher reason why tsunami occurred is not only the secondary cause, the material nature but God's will. Why?
* REASON: to stop the nonsense activities of so-called religious people who deviated from pure religion.
* it was the experience of hell in this earth planet
* it is a lesson to us to purely practice religion without deviation.

* Real religious people will not blame God for the catastrophe but be thankful to Him.
* they know they would deserve greater punishment but by God's mercy they got only a small one.

Praise the acts of God. Whatever He does is always good for all

Hare Krishna.

 

[arthra]

Nitai wrote:

"...codes on disasters like tsunami* if God is all good why he arranges disasters like tsunami?"
* interestingly in the afflicted areas no one of the Hare Krishna devotees neither died nor disappeared.
* in many other dangerous situations such protection occurred.

* QUESTION: why did God not protect other religious people
* he certainly did protect those who strictly follow pure religious principles
* this is His promise in the Bhagavad-gita.
__________________________

With due respect to your beliefs my friend Nitai...

Are you saying that God protects devotees of Bhagavan Krishna more than others?

It may be that there were simply no devotees living in the path of that storm...or they simply were not there at the time.

I know from reports I received that there were no Baha'is reported killed either but it would not occur to me to claim that God was being preferential about us or our beliefs in "saving" them.

Are you saying that there have been no disasters in India affecting devotees?

How do we know that some of those western tourists who died were not devotees?

Simply because people do not die in a great cataclism or say a widespread epidemic does not mean that God favors them... God's plans may be greater than our suppositions.

- Art

 

[iBrian]

* interestingly in the afflicted areas no one of the Hare Krishna devotees neither died nor disappeared.

You seem to be implying that Hare Krishna devotees have no interest in the material world - yet are protected from it anyway. Somehow this view seems somewhat contradictory.

It's also a shame you seem imply that the only people who suffered did so because they failed to follow the "right religion" - such a view is difficult to interpret as anything but naive and extremist.

 

[path_of_one]

And what about all the children? I guess you get around this with the concept of karma, but I'm very much against saying that the fate of these small children who died was their own fault. Nor do I think it is God's fault. Natural forces and cycles just... are. Created for the benefit and constant creation of nature itself, they are good in the long run though they may cause us pain in the short run. But I do not think God uses them to punish people who aren't devoted enough. Far too many of the victims of natural disasters, diseases, and such are infants and children, and in my experience, these are near to God's heart and are much closer to Him than most adults.

Something that was very interesting is that one indigenous village had not one person die or disappear. Why? The old local shaman remembered an ancient mythology about the sea when the water rapidly recedes, and told all the village to get to high ground ASAP. They did, and were saved. I doubt they were all equally and purely devoted to God. But they did respect their own culture and ancient wisdom, and it saved them.

 

[Nitai]

Thank you for your comments

* because I am a Hare Krishna devotee I certainly heard only about Hare Krishnas, that no one of them died in tsunami
* In my post i did not exclude other sincere religious people but only the so-called ones.
* Here is an example from the Mahabharata.
* a brahmana, a Ksatriya, vaisya and sudra all killed one-one person
Yudhistira gave the following punishment.
* to the sudra because he is not educated 4 years of prison
* to the vaisya 6 years prison
* to the ksatriya 8
* the brahmana decided to commit suicide
* the greatest punishment is always going to the most educated person
* he knows that something is not good to do still he does wrong
* the ignorant person can be more easily forgiven for his mistake because he don't have knowledge, so the punishment is different

* this is a universal principle of the Vedic scriptures
* dharmam tu saksad bhagavat pranitam - their source is God Himself

other point
* the tsunami stricken people would have to suffer in the hell if not here
* In my opinion here is better
* there is less suffering and if they repent quickly they can more easily practice religious life
* so in this way that is also mercy of God

** the comment that there is no God in control of the material nature is not acceptable
** it is like saying the car is running without a driver
** that's very childish

** ANALOGY: the material body don't collapse because of the presence of the soul
** all bodily limbs are working nicely
** similarly, because of the soul of the universe, or Supersoul - Paramatma, everything in the universe is maintained and can properly function
** this is not understood by a materialistic person but only by a purified soul
** You can see God only through the eyes of devotion and through the eye of scriptures
** ultimately you are just describing the mechanism through which God is working.
** the material nature or material energy is dull
** to work it needs the energetic
** energy and energetic / car and the driver.

Hare Krishna
I hope you are well, please don't be offended
The truth of the scriptures are eternal.

 

[Nitai]

I would like to comment on few things, but please don't take it as an offense. It's just a philosophical consideration of reality.

** YOU WROTE: you seem [to] imply that the only people who suffered did so because they failed to follow the "right religion"
-- In India there are a group of people that are called Sahajiyas
-- there are many different varieties of them.
-- basically they are called materialistic devotees and pretending religionists.
-- this is because they are posing themselves as very advanced but they are living a life of full sense gratification as well.
-- this is called being duplicitous.
-- the symptoms of an advanced spiritualist are described in the scriptures
-- the imitationists are easily detected
-- especially God knows their impurities

-- ANALOGY: by keeping the anchor in the water the boat will not move an inch
-- similarly, continuing material sense gratification and sinful life while practicing spiritual life will result in no spiritual advancement

-- this kind of people know the way of purity (especially in India) but they don't want to accept it
-- the scriptures say that through the material tribulations God tries to rectify both the materialists and the pretending spiritualist
-- all the suffering in the material world are meant for rectification.
-- just like the prisoners in the prison are rectified by the police
-- WHAT IS THE LESSON? That this material world is not for enjoyment
-- it will be always the place of miseries

-- when somebody understands the lesson he will take the shelter of God in pure way not desiring anymore material sense gratification.
-- attaining such pure desire for pure spiritual life might take few lifetimes
-- God's well-wishing plan is behind everything

*** such a view is difficult to interpret as anything but naive and extremist.
-- there are a category of materialistic devotees who know their weakness of being attracted to material enjoyment but they don't pretend to be advanced spiritualists
-- they sincerely try to improve and according to the scriptures they also enjoy the full protection of the Supreme Lord.
-- Pretenders and materialists get a special treatment by the material nature.

NOTE: the scriptures also explain that any problems a true devotees (whether pure or impure) undergo are the minimized problems by God. If having not taken His schalter they would certainly suffer more.

Gaura Premanande Hari Hari bol
Hare Krishna