Islam on a collision course

brian

Administrator
Veteran Member
Messages
338
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Yorkshire, UK
This looked like an interesting essay, which was featured here on the BBC website (and hope it is permissable to do so):



Islam on a collision course

by Akbar Ahmed

"There will be a time when your religion will be like a hot piece of coal in the palm of your hand; you will not be able to hold it". The Prophet of Islam was gazing into the future while he talked to his followers early in the 7th century in Arabia. "Would this mean there would be very few Muslims?" someone asked. "No," replied the Prophet, "They will be large in numbers, more than ever before, but powerless like the foam on the ocean waves."

After September 11, 2001, the prediction of the Prophet seems to be coming true. Islam has become as hot as a piece of coal for its followers. Let me give you an example of what has happened in my own family. One of my relatives was in the second tower of the World Trade Centre on September 11th. When the first plane struck its target, he rang his father in New Jersey immediately, to say that something terrible had happened and he was coming home. He put the phone down, and we never heard from him again. Can you imagine the horror of my cousin's father? Like hundreds of Muslim families he suffered the loss of someone in the terrorist attacks. Like hundreds of thousands of Muslims he felt shocked and disgusted by the carnage. But Muslims like my relative suffer twice-over, because this carnage was committed in the name of our religion.

Yet many Muslims now feel themselves in the dock, accused of belonging to a so-called "terrorist" and "extremist" religion. The "war on terrorism" President George Bush declared after September 11th threatens to stretch into the century. But, as a result of incessant attacks by well-known figures on the Koran, the Prophet, and the customs and traditions of our religion, for many Muslims it appears to be a war against Islam. For many of us therefore, on both a global and personal level, this is a time of challenge and despair.

For better or for worse the 21st century will be the century of Islam. The events of September 11 saw to that. The hijackers of the four American planes killed not only thousands of innocent people. Their terrible act also created one of the greatest paradoxes of the 21st century: Islam, which sees itself as a religion of peace, is now associated with murder and mayhem.

Consider Islam today: There are about 1.3 billion Muslims living in 55 states, and the Muslim population is growing fast. About 25 million Muslims live in the West - in fact, a third of all Muslims live in non-Muslim states. But Islam is the one world religion which appears to be on a collision course with its neighbours.

We know that for the first time in history, due to a unique geopolitical conjunction of factors, Islam is in confrontation with all of the major world religions: Judaism in the Middle East; Christianity in the Balkans, Chechnya, Nigeria, Sudan and sporadically in the Philippines and Indonesia; Hinduism in South Asia; and, after the Taliban blew up the statues in Bamiyan, Buddhism. The Chinese, whose culture represents an amalgam of the philosophy of Confucius, Tao and Communist ideology, are also on a collision course with Islam in China's western province.

Why is it that Islam now appears to be clashing with so many neighbouring civilisations? Perhaps because we are entering into what I call a "post-honour" world. I think that the dangerously ambiguous notion of honour - and the even more dangerous idea of the loss of honour - propels men to violence. Simply put, global developments have robbed many people of honour. Rapid global changes are shaking the structures of traditional societies. Groups are forced to dislocate, or live nearby other groups. In the process of dislocation they have little patience with the problems of others. They develop intolerance and express it through anger. And this is not a problem unique to Islamic countries. No society is immune. Even those states that economists call "developed" fall back to the notions of honour and revenge in times of crisis. President Bush himself spoke using the rhetoric of honour after September 11th. Like a sheriff whose town had been hit by bad guys, he spoke of a great nation that had been attacked, and the "fitting reply" that he would mete out. He used words like "dead or alive". He called the enemy "a slithering snake". Bush did not speak in terms of geopolitics, but in the simple terms of honour and revenge.

Besides, the traditional Muslim division of the world has collapsed: What Muslims once saw as the distinction between dar al-harb- the house of war, land of anarchy and disbelief - and dar al-Islam - the house of peace or Islam in which they could practice their faith and flourish - is no longer valid. In the last decades of the 20th century the division has become largely irrelevant. Muslims can freely practice their faith and flourish in the United States and elsewhere; meanwhile they have been persecuted in Iraq. After September 2001, the distinction disappeared altogether. Muslims everywhere felt under siege. The entire world had become dar al-harb.

The events of September 11th appeared to push the world toward the idea of the clash of civilizations, but they also conveyed the urgency of the call for dialogue. We may not like words such as "post-modernism" and "globalization", but only with the compassionate understanding of other civilizations, through the development of the scholarship of inclusion, can we resolve some of the deleterious consequences of globalization. We need to address the increasing gap between the rich and the poor, and the growing sense of despair, especially in the latter. The tragic confrontation among the great faiths taking place in the Balkans, the Middle East, and South Asia, the mindless cycle of violence, must be checked in this century through the dialogue of civilization. Long-term work needs to be started to build the confidence of communities. Serious and urgent rethinking is required by policy-planners and policy-makers in the corridors of power, not only in Washington, London, Moscow and Paris but also in Cairo, Islamabad, Kabul, and Tehran.

There has been dialogue in the past. A thousand years ago in Muslim Spain, Jews, Christians and Muslims lived and worked together to create a glorious civilization, where libraries, public debate and learning flourished - and this at a time when the rest of Europe was stuck in the Dark Ages. And five hundred years ago in India, Akbar the Great ruled over a territory that encompasses modern-day India, Pakistan, Afghanistan and Bangladesh. A Muslim who was married to a Hindu princess, his reign ushered in a remarkable century of tolerance - each week he hosted meetings between leaders of all the faiths. I have even seen this wisdom in our own time, when last year the former Archbishop of Canterbury called together a similar meeting of religious leaders. Representatives from Christian, Jewish, and the Muslim faiths gathered together to discuss our common goals, and how we could create peace and harmony in our troubled times.

I suggest a formula for the new millennium: If justice and compassion flourish - and are seen to flourish - in the Muslim world, if its rulers are people of integrity, and if Muslims are allowed to practice their faith with honour, then Islam will be a good neighbour to non-Muslims living outside its borders. And it will provide a benevolent and compassionate environment to those living inside them. It will continue to resist attempts to subvert its identity or dignity. Because resistance can take the form of a Muhammad Ali Jinnah, the founder of Pakistan who believed in human rights and fought within the law, or resistance can take the form of an Osama bin Laden who fights outside of it.

I hope that one day we embrace this new formula, so that the whole world can become dar al-Islam - the house of peace.


Akbar Ahmed is an academic and a world-renowned "ambassador" for Islam. But he has angered many of his fellow Muslims by asking them to examine why it is that the interpretation of Islam seems to be the source of the clash of civilisations.
 
An Islamic Reformation is required if Islam is to continue as a world religion

Islam as it stands stands for totalitarian religious mind control that will not be permitted as a national religion in democratic countries. Judaism started off the same way as totalitarian tribal religious/social rules for Hebrews. Pauline Christianity set up another territorial totalitarian model that the Roman Catholic Church expanded to produce the most terrible of the Christian religious persecutions of non-Christians in Europe, the New World, and Africa. Now the Muslims are competing for religious totalitarian infamy. Totalitarian religions are OUT! Period. They will never be accepted by liberal democracies as social governing systems as they are enemies of individual freedom and human rights.

God has given Islam a way out but it will take Islamic intellectuals time to see it in action. Hopefully Muslim women will take the first step to overhauling Islamic doctrines that, like Judaism, and Pauline Christianity before Mohammad, stripped the Godhead of any meaningful Feminine Presense without which men are spiritually blinded by built-in alpha male territorial battling behavioral patterns inherited from our days as wild animals.Without respect for lovingkindness, the strength of the Feminine, men run amok with weapons to establish territories for themselves and their kind. Islam must be open now to Feminine imput and a new meaning to the term "Islam" to render it truly "surrender to God as Peace."
 
Excellent posts!!!

I'd just like to add a further problem with Islamic dogma, and this is that Muslims may not marry non-Muslims. This is a serious problem since love is a greater power than the authority of one's community/religion. Where Islam meets other religions, as it undoubtably does, there are cross-marriages, and ultimately conflict, since Muslims won't stand down.
Remove this tenet, and I'm sure Islam will be able to co-exist far better with others.
 
arielmessenger said:
Now the Muslims are competing for religious totalitarian infamy....They will never be accepted by liberal democracies as social governing systems as they are enemies of individual freedom and human rights.
I think this is far far too much of a simplification of a various political processes that span the past few hundred years, and the accusation seems to work against specific charges of militancy and fundamentalism, rather than anything else.

As for feminism - sorry, but what you are advocating is not something I hear from Muslim women. In fact, anything but - I've encountered strong arguments before frmo Muslim women that they are proud to wear their veils as a sign of identity and association with Allah. Whilst people in the West may claim this is oppression, let's face the converse - the complete sexual exploitation and manipulation of women for commercial purposes in the West.

I also recommend you consider reading something of the wider history of Islam - try looking at around the 9th to 12th centuries. You will see an utterly different Islam than the view we have been given since 9/11.
 
I said:
As for feminism - sorry, but what you are advocating is not something I hear from Muslim women. In fact, anything but - I've encountered strong arguments before frmo Muslim women that they are proud to wear their veils as a sign of identity and association with Allah. Whilst people in the West may claim this is oppression, let's face the converse - the complete sexual exploitation and manipulation of women for commercial purposes in the West.
Well I have. I live with a large, but mild Muslim community in South Africa, and a lot of women feel quite divided about their place in the world and how to fit in. We're a very diverse people here in Cape Town and I often see Muslim women going to clubs and raves wearing clothes that wouldn't be accepted in a traditional culture. The reason I know they're Muslim is because they still stick to the rules and wear a doek (head scarf.)

I also recommend you consider reading something of the wider history of Islam - try looking at around the 9th to 12th centuries. You will see an utterly different Islam than the view we have been given since 9/11.
What good will that do? The future is now. If it can't perform in the present, then that's the end of the matter. The 12th century was very different to now, and proposing that we live with in the 21 century governed by an ideaology which is culturally set in the 7th is ludicrous. It has been Islam's rigid stance and unwillingness to change that has left it at this precipice.
 
samabudhi said:
Well I have. I live with a large, but mild Muslim community in South Africa, and a lot of women feel quite divided about their place in the world and how to fit in. We're a very diverse people here in Cape Town and I often see Muslim women going to clubs and raves wearing clothes that wouldn't be accepted in a traditional culture. The reason I know they're Muslim is because they still stick to the rules and wear a doek (head scarf.)
Being completely veiled tends to be a more African practice, from what I've seen - Algeria in particular as strong on this. However, countries such as Iran don't make an issue of women covering the face.

Either way, though, perhaps it is better for these people to consider which is the most appropriate way for them to dress themselves? There is a nasty European habit of disapproving of other cultures, and demanding they wear our own values of what constitues "civilisation".

samabudhi said:
What good will that do? The future is now. If it can't perform in the present, then that's the end of the matter. The 12th century was very different to now, and proposing that we live with in the 21 century governed by an ideaology which is culturally set in the 7th is ludicrous. It has been Islam's rigid stance and unwillingness to change that has left it at this precipice.
The future is now - but it would perhaps not be wise for any to make judgement on any particular event based on a single snapshot of the now, and disregard the past that formed it.

Islam of the 9th to 11th centuries, at least, was the epitome of civilisation, of tolerance, prosperity, learning, and technological achievement.

Of course, Islam has changed - but the fanatical kalashinikov-wielding Muslim we repeatedly see in media imagery cannot be taken as a judgement on Islam itself.

And the age of the ideology I would have though has nothing to do with it. It's not like we chuck Buddha out of the proverbial window as an anachronistic has-been? Crikey, definitely can't be any value to those laughably ancient Taoist dictates, then, either? ;)
 
As a Muslim, I am proud that our religion has not changed. By the way, the title should be 'Muslims on a collision course' because Islam is a complete religion and is spreading very rapidly. It is accepted by Muslims and a large part of non-Muslims that Qur'an is a word of Allah(The Almighty God) and is free from corruption. All the aspects and views present in the religion should be viewed. I mean seriously, Muslims strongly believe in Khatemiyyat. The religion is complete. All the revelations, all the commandments, all the things required are completely told to us. It is because that Muslims are somewhat deviating from the religion that this condition is upon us(Muslims).
I will have to say that it is a shame for us Muslims(especailly for some of the politicians and leaders of the present day) that when they want to do some work, they mis-quote some verses to hold their verdict as correct, but miss out the real message. Before it is noticed it becomes too late.

About tolerance, in the Holy Qur'an, the critaria for salvation and/or success is given in Surah AL-ASR, Chapter no. 103, Verse no. 1 to Verse no.3...
'Swear by the time, most surely man is in loss, except those who believe and do good, and enjoin on each other truth, and enjoin on each other patiance'.
This reveals that patiance or tolerance is essential for Muslims and also every man(according to the Qur'an). But also, you should realise the limits of patiance. It should not exceed or deviate from the laws presented by Islam.

About veil or hijab, I do not see that why the west or the non-Muslims see it as any offence to the women. I mean, the Christian nuns wear something like it and are viewed with great respect world wide. It is commanded to us in the Holy Qur'an about hijab in suarh AL-NOOR, chapter 24, verses 30 and 31 that:
________________________

Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: And Allah is well acquainted with all that they do.
And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss.
________________________

The Hadiths also mentions about hijab at several places. Thus hijab or veil has a religious value among the Muslims. Many people, even Muslims miss out verse number 30 which says about the hijab of the men i.e. to lower their gaze and guard their modesty. If you discuss how this law is helping today, you will come to know that it not only represent modesty and belief in Islam, but is also a mean by which Allah(The Almighty God) protects the women from adultry.
 
samabudhi said:
I'd just like to add a further problem with Islamic dogma, and this is that Muslims may not marry non-Muslims. This is a serious problem since love is a greater power than the authority of one's community/religion. Where Islam meets other religions, as it undoubtably does, there are cross-marriages, and ultimately conflict, since Muslims won't stand down.
Remove this tenet, and I'm sure Islam will be able to co-exist far better with others.

It is commanded to us in the Qur'an in surah AL-BAQARA, chapter no. 2, verse no. 221 that:
_________________________

And do not marry the idolatresses until they believe, and certainly a believing maid is better than an idolatress woman, even though she should please you; and do not give (believing women) in marriage to idolaters until they believe, and certainly a believing servant is better than an idolater, even though he should please you; these invite to the fire, and Allah invites to the garden and to forgiveness by His will, and makes clear His communications to mankind, that they may be mindful.
_________________________

As said earlier, the commandments in the Qur'an are very important to us(Muslims). The reason why we are not to marry non-Muslims is that we might not deviate from our religion. If the love is true then the non-Muslim should embrace Islam. Again, we(Muslims) are proud to follow Islam also because it is uncorrupted. I mean seriously, do those who do curroption in their religion really think they know more then Allah(The Almight God)?
 
samabudhi said:
What good will that do? The future is now. If it can't perform in the present, then that's the end of the matter. The 12th century was very different to now, and proposing that we live with in the 21 century governed by an ideaology which is culturally set in the 7th is ludicrous. It has been Islam's rigid stance and unwillingness to change that has left it at this precipice.

I truly appretiate Brian's reply. Yes it does matter what the 12th century was like. I mean to say that the west again shows an image that the Muslims had been behind in science, they have been behind throughout the history. If the world is told the true history, there would be a different approach when talking about Islam. It is a fact that the contributions made by Muslims are by far very important. The scientific history programs show the works of Aristotle e.t.c. and then jump to the times of De Vinchi and other European scientists and then directly to the industrial age. They fail to realize that the church rejected the works of Aristotle e.t.c. where as it was the Muslims of that time that gathered it, translated and revised it and with their additional works, passed it on the the entire world. These comments are taken from a documentry showed by PBS.org and there were professors from Harward University making these comments.
 
I said:
Of course, Islam has changed - but the fanatical kalashinikov-wielding Muslim we repeatedly see in media imagery cannot be taken as a judgement on Islam itself.
Why not? It is what I see of Islam. I don't see people carrying out peaceful protests. If I am not to judge from what I see, then am I to judge on what people want me to see? No thanks. I'll always keep an open mind on the subject, but at the same time, I won't deny the obvious.

And the age of the ideology I would have thought has nothing to do with it. It's not like we chuck Buddha out of the proverbial window as an anachronistic has-been? Crikey, definitely can't be any value to those laughably ancient Taoist dictates, then, either? ;)
You'll note that I made sure to include the term "culturally set" when I spoke of the ideaology of Islam. There are little or no cultural attachments to the original Buddha Dharma. The Buddha made sure to deprecate all cultural aspects in the ideaology which he taught. It was only latter that Buddhism took on culture, but not in the teachings.
Taoists even less. If I knew nothing about Taoism and you handed me the Tao Te Ching, I wouldn't have a clue where it originated.

Islam on the other hand, like the other Abrahamic religions, includes cultural dogma in their scriptures and maintains that they are integral to spiritual practise/progress. This will be their undoing.


You both misunderstand my point about head-scarfs. I was drawing your attention to the fact that these women will simply abide by the rules without any mindfulness of the reason they follow them. They wear skimpy clothes and then a head-scarf. So how does it help to increase their 'humility' then. It's a sham. They only wear it because they have to. If they were truly humble, they wouldn't be seen dead at a rave, as some truly humble Muslim women who I know would. So the scarf becomes more of a vice to the issue of humility. Now if everyone was forced to walk naked!...Then we'd see people trying their utmost to be humble and chaste, simply because it would be too easy to be seen otherwise.
The scarf is an excuse to be mindless, used the wrong way.

The reason why we are not to marry non-Muslims is that we might not deviate from our religion.
I'm assuming you didn't mean to put in that second 'not.'
In that case: is your believe so thin, so fragile, that a non-Muslim could turn you from the Truth by marrying you. Now I know love is strong, but really, I don't see how you can become MORE ignorant by marrying someone. If I learn the Truth, then I have learned it. It's going to take hours staring at strobe lights and 3second drips on the forehead for days, to regress what I have learnt. Hmmm. I think many think that would be a good discription of what marriage is like anyway. :D

If the love is true then the non-Muslim should embrace Islam.
Such arrogance. :eek: What can I say. :confused:

Samabudhi:
What good will that do? The future is now. If it can't perform in the present, then that's the end of the matter. The 12th century was very different to now, and proposing that we live with in the 21 century governed by an ideaology which is culturally set in the 7th is ludicrous. It has been Islam's rigid stance and unwillingness to change that has left it at this precipice.

Mohsin:
I truly appretiate Brian's reply. Yes it does matter what the 12th century was like. I mean to say that the west again shows an image that the Muslims had been behind in science, they have been behind throughout the history. If the world is told the true history, there would be a different approach when talking about Islam. It is a fact that the contributions made by Muslims are by far very important. The scientific history programs show the works of Aristotle e.t.c. and then jump to the times of De Vinchi and other European scientists and then directly to the industrial age. They fail to realize that the church rejected the works of Aristotle e.t.c. where as it was the Muslims of that time that gathered it, translated and revised it and with their additional works, passed it on the the entire world. These comments are taken from a documentry showed by PBS.org and there were professors from Harward University making these comments.

You are arguing against my point that Islam may have been useful in it's time and that it is not necessarily useful now, by showing examples of how it was useful in it's time!?
 
Muslims, please! Stop and think before following the same idiocy as Bible literalists

God does not write books but men and men are human beings, fallible creatures. To hold up one man and his experience of God as the Rule for all is absurd logic, especially when one knows that before Mohammad, "Moses" tried the same thing as did Paul and the Church Fathers for Christians. Each of these religious Napoleons claimed their take on God was the ONLY ONE, all others false or superceded.

Bible literal believing Christians truly believe God wrote the Bible and that the Bible tells everything needed to know about how to live a righteous life. Now the rank and file Muslims are holding the same nonsense of their Book. Please, social ideas from 500 B.C. or 1 A.D. or 7th century A.D. are all out of date with today's social realities. For example, no Jew or Muslim can practice their religion that requires the murder of adulteresses in any modern liberal democracy without facing prison. If you can't stone an adulteress for God you can't claim peace for your God or anything for your God because obviously, your "God" is out of date and hasn't given you any further instructions on how to deal with modern life with ancient social rules supposedly given by God yet given differently here as opposed to there.

Time to wake up! and smell the roses and stop being led around by fear of God which has come to stand for fear of armed and dangerous men.
 
I totally disagree with you arielmessanger. Concider this example, Islam tells us to lower our gaze, gurad our modesty, veil for women, death penelty for rape. Suadi government is following this and you can see that the rate of rape there is the lowest in the world. Yes they too are deviating a little bit, but still, the law is there. Now concider America. According to a report by the FBI in 1990, in the year 1990… ‘One hundred and two thousand, five hundred & fifty five women were raped’. These are only the reported cases - And the report says… ‘Only 16% of the cases were reported’. If you want those exact figure, multiply 1,02,555 with 6.25, and you get the answer - more than 6,40,000 ladies were raped in America only in 1990. And if you divide this… by the number of days, divide by 365, you get a figure of One thousand, seven hundred and fifty six women are raped every day, in America, in the year 1990.
And the report which came in Autumn, in 1993, it says... ‘Every 1.3 minute, one woman is raped’ . If you apply these 'harsh/outdated' Islamic laws, as you like to call them, would the rate of rape remain the same, will it increase or will it decrease? Naturally, it will decrease. This question had been asked to several people. Suppose your sister is raped, and if you are made the judge - leave aside what Islam tells you, leave aside what Indian law tells you, leave aside what American law tells you - If you are made the judge, what punishment will you give to the rapist of your sister? And all said… ‘Death sentence’ - Few went to the extreme of saying… ‘I will torture him to death’. Then if Islam is giving this punishment, then why do you call it outdated? No one will commit this crime because of the fear of death.
By the way, I know why you are making the comments that you are making, because of unjust acts of Taliban. Believe me, the are the kind of people that I mentioned about, take one law, discard the other. If anyone does this, the result would naturally be failure of justice and rise of cruelty. I hope I did not offend anyone with my statements.
 
Freedom means freedom to screw up too!

Mohsin, you give the same apology for brutal laws that one could in the Soviet Union under Stalin. Sure, when the State has all the guns crime goes down so an Islamic government with total control of social behavior can make such brutal laws that few would risk breaking them. But the "goodness" of society under such draconian laws is merely a mask as the collapse of the Societ Union showed the world. Where Islamic laws are in force in the world one finds the level of education to be far behind Western standards. Once Muslims find out what they're missing in terms of Freedom they will never go back to totalitarian mind control and unfortunately, totalitarian mind control is what Islam, like the Roman Catholic Church and the Communist State, had in mind all along. The New Man, be he Communist or Muslim, must be held in check or else he reverts back to that same old human condition we all are in where mistakes are made and forgiveness the only way to grow spiritually.
 
Just I wanted to say to Samabudhi, yes I placed the second 'not' by mistake. You tell me, I am a Muslim, I believe in Islam, I believe in what Allah(SWT) and our Prophet Muhammad(P.B.U.H) had told us to do. I believe that it is Allah(SWT) who had created everything and I do believe that life and every thing we come accross in it is a test. Now, I do not know what you believe, but love is also by what we are tested. Yes, it is a great gift, but it can easily carry us away from our duties. Just because of love for one person, you leave aside what religion has told you and then, then what? What if the person you love dies or leaves you? I mean you gave away your faith for someone and that person is not even their any more.
Also, concider this, how can a car run with one tyre from a bike and one from a truck, I mean one goes to pray in a Masjid, other in a temple. One believe in something and the other in something else. How will they spend their life together? Don't ever say to the Muslim to compramise religion. I do not know why people are so much willing to do that. I mean this is a religion and belief discussion forum and you are willing to go against the teachings of your religion. If you do not know, that is another thing. This means that either you or what you believe in cannot go along. Sorry if I offended you.
 
When one is dead, it is hard to learn righteous behavior

Mohsin, the adultress in Africa in the news not long ago, should she have been buried alive and stoned to death? That is what your Islamic law requires yet if you obey it here in my country, you would be put away in prison for the rest of your life because our laws recognize the triviality of adultery incomparison to crimes of violence. Islam, because of Mohammad's 7th century desert Arab cultural standards has God acting just like a jealous husband who must do violence to love in order to redeem his "honor".

Again, I urge you to not let Mohammad and the Quran blind you to moral perspectives that are not to be found in ancient men's spiritual or social understandings, just as knowledge of how the modern world works cannot be found there. Do you understand that idols can come as little black markings strung in rows on pieces of papyrus, parchment or paper?
 
Please arialmessanger tell me where does Islam tells you not to study, not to educate yourself? I gave you an example when the Muslims were in the 12th century. Yes, it is because we have deviated from the true knowledge of Islam that we are behind. I mean, the image given to the Muslims and islamic law is a very cruel one. This same law was present then, even in a more Islamic form then that of present today. There was peace, there was happiness. If a Muslim is tempted towards a free society and goes there, gets inspired and leaves his true teaching, it is his fault, not Islam's. Yes, Islam is practical, if you learn about it completely.
Why do you hold sympothy for a sinner? I mean I gave you a good example which was mentioned publically. If you believe in what your religion tells you, you would also come to know about your laws about such sins. That woman you talk about, she did a sin that she should not have. Islam gives strict punishments because it wants to establish law and order. Do not take me as a person who wants an era of iron fist or something. If a person does not wish to be punished, he should live by the law.
Again, you tell me, I want to go to paradise(heaven). I must follow the law that I have been put forward by our Prophet Muhammad(P.B.U.H). If someone ammends it, does the person think that he know more that Allah(SWT) and his Prophet(P.B.U.H) ? Again people fail to realize the teachings of Islam. There is a very famous incident about Prophet Muhammad(P.B.U.H) giving a punishment of chopping off the hand of a woman for robbery who was actully from a rich tribe. The tribe requested one of the close followers of Islam to request the Prophet(P.B.U.H) and ask the punishment off or alter the punishment. The Prophet(P.B.U.H) got very unhappy and said that "If my own daughter would have been in this woman's place, I would have chopped off her hand as well."
 
samabudhi said:
Why not? It is what I see of Islam. I don't see people carrying out peaceful protests. If I am not to judge from what I see, then am I to judge on what people want me to see? No thanks. I'll always keep an open mind on the subject, but at the same time, I won't deny the obvious.
True, but let's jump back to the 1980's - and the numerous newscasts showing black males involved in riots. It didn't matter whether it was protests in South Africa, or race riots in Britain - wherever you looked, the Black Male was violent and to be feared. I didn't see on the news any peaceful protests involving black males.

Point being, what we see on the media is always going to be the exceptional news, not the norm.
 
arielmessenger said:
Bible literal believing Christians truly believe God wrote the Bible and that the Bible tells everything needed to know about how to live a righteous life.
However, there is plenty of divergence from the "literalist fundamentalist" in Christianity.

arielmessenger said:
Now the rank and file Muslims are holding the same nonsense of their Book. Please, social ideas from 500 B.C. or 1 A.D. or 7th century A.D. are all out of date with today's social realities.
The social ideas of the Quran are wide-ranging - access to education is one of the key "social ideas" - should Muslims therefore reject that as well?

arielmessenger said:
For example, no Jew or Muslim can practice their religion that requires the murder of adulteresses in any modern liberal democracy without facing prison.
Indeed, and so should be the case. And the vast majority of Muslims living under democracy do indeed accept Western Law.

Although Mohsin tries to justify certain aspects of "law" in Islam, from what I've seen the interpretation of law is a rather complex affair, and I'm certainly under the impression that this differs widely across the Muslim world.

Unfortunately, a lot of the Muslim world is also living under brutal dictatorships, who IMO use violence as a way of holding onto power first, rather than as an observation of any kind of "pan-Islamic law".

arielmessenger said:
Time to wake up! and smell the roses and stop being led around by fear of God which has come to stand for fear of armed and dangerous men.
Et tu, arielmessenger - for that is not the God of Islam. Have you read the Quran?
 
Also, concider this, how can a car run with one tyre from a bike and one from a truck, I mean one goes to pray in a Masjid, other in a temple. One believe in something and the other in something else. How will they spend their life together?
In tolerance and respect for each other's own views. I thought women weren't allowed in Mosques anyway!?
The problem with this mode of thinking is that it spills into everything else Muslims do. They cannot comprehend working together with someone who is different. This is prejudice...emphasis emphasis. So how is it that you think the West and the Middle East can get on without them being the same? It's not going to happen, and if Islam can't show a little more tolerance to everyone else, then it's going be the one who suffers.

Why do you hold sympothy for a sinner?
Because this is compassion. Something which I feel safe to say, does not exist in Islam.

True, but let's jump back to the 1980's - and the numerous newscasts showing black males involved in riots. It didn't matter whether it was protests in South Africa, or race riots in Britain - wherever you looked, the Black Male was violent and to be feared. I didn't see on the news any peaceful protests involving black males.
What happened in South Africa was a cut and dry case of prejudicial suppresion by a bunch of nuts. There's no question who was in the wrong. It's a different story with the Middle East and the West as I think both sides are to blame. There wasn't even the question of 'peace talks' or any compromises by the Nationalist government. A similar case was the Native Americans. Total annihilation. Very sad.

Time to wake up! and smell the roses and stop being led around by fear of God which has come to stand for fear of armed and dangerous men.

Et tu, arielmessenger - for that is not the God of Islam. Have you read the Quran?
I have and all I see is 'fear God' written about a thousand times. Having my molars removed was a less painful process than reading this book.
 
samabudhi said:
The problem with this mode of thinking is that it spills into everything else Muslims do. They cannot comprehend working together with someone who is different. This is prejudice...emphasis emphasis. So how is it that you think the West and the Middle East can get on without them being the same? It's not going to happen, and if Islam can't show a little more tolerance to everyone else, then it's going be the one who suffers.
The question was on weddings between non-Muslims and Muslims and this cannot happen. To us marrige is an important commitment, one has to stay together and help eachother e.t.c. It is only for marrige. Working with non-Muslims has got no problem until or unless it a wrong job, e.g. working in bars and other things which are declaider unlawful in Islam. As I said, tolerance is important, and it is good as long as both sides are working together. The best examples of tolerace came from the earlier Muslims. People of many religions lived together in the Middle East and things were going fine. You know when things got out of hand.
samabudhi said:
Because this is compassion. Something which I feel safe to say, does not exist in Islam.
What if the same sinner robbed you, raped or killed someone close to you? Will you show the same compassion? Islamic law also have rights for the prisoners. The way they are treated today in the world are againt not only Islamic laws, but all international laws. This unlawful act is carried out by the Muslims as well.
samabudhi said:
I have and all I see is 'fear God' written about a thousand times. Having my molars removed was a less painful process than reading this book.
You are commited towards disagreeing with Islam. You miss out the real message and keep in mind what you dislike. It is about obediance to God. Many times it is mentioned 'In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful'. You follow what Allah commands and you will be recieving rewards. You go against, you will suffer.
 
Back
Top