Question on Isaiah 28 and 61.

[InChristAlways]

[size=+2]I have a question about Isaiah 61/28. Is the tried stone of Isaiah 28 symbolizing Jesus and the acceptable year of the Lord. If so, and the jews are still waiting on their own messiah to come, do they realize that the Day of the Lord/Vengeance happens after he comes?

I do not know how the jewish religion views the Day of the Lord/God in the OT, but from what I see in the OT, that event can't happen untill their messiah comes to them first to preach the "Good news" ? What are others views on this as this appears to be pretty "cut and dry" to me? Thanks.
Steve

Isaiah 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, And the day of vengeance of our God; To comfort all who mourn, [/size]

Mark 1:15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled [#4137], and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel."

2 Peter 3:12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?
[size=+2]
Isaiah 28:14 Therefore hear the word of the LORD, you scornful men, Who rule this people who [are] in Jerusalem, 15 Because you have said, "We have made a covenant with death, And with Sheol we are in agreement. When the overflowing scourge passes through, It will not come to us, For we have made lies our refuge, And under falsehood we have hidden ourselves." 16 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, I lay in Zion a stone for a foundation, A tried stone, a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation; Whoever believes will not act hastily. 17 Also I will make justice the measuring line, And righteousness the plummet; The hail will sweep away the refuge of lies, And the waters [Daniel 9?] will overflow the hiding place. 18 Your covenant with death will be covered over/atoned, And your agreement with Sheol will not stand; When the overflowing scourge passes through, Then you will be trampled down by it.[/size]

Revelation 16:21 And great hail from heaven fell upon men, [each hailstone] about the weight of a talent. Men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, since that plague was exceedingly great.

 

[bananabrain]

ICA -

the short answer to your question is this: judaism does not accept that *anything* - repeat, *anything* in the Tana"kh (what you call the "old testament) refers to, prophesies or symbolises jesus in any way, shape or form whatsoever. he is *not* part of our worldview, canon or religious structure. the messiah *is*, but he is not jesus and jesus is not him. he is a man not a Divine being or incarnation of G!D or the "holy spirit" or whatever - such ideas are alien to judaism.

to be precise; the verses that you quote from isaiah and daniel refer to the fate of the jewish people. the jewish people (in fact, if you look in isaiah 44:1-2, 44:21, 45:4, 48:20 and 49:5-6 it's explicit that jacob/israel are being referred to) are the "suffering servant", not jesus. the "foundation stone" refers to the stone on which the Temple altar was constructed, which is also the rock that is the centrepiece of the dome of the rock mosque and, also, according to tradition, the rock on which the "binding of isaac" took place. this too refers to the jewish people and, more specifically the Torah, our Law, the "foundation stone" of monotheism. the "day of HaShem" and the "day of vengeance" refer to the messianic period when persecution will cease and peace will reign on earth. we explain the idea that the "day of vengeance" coming after the Moshiach as being the fact that this messianic era will not be ushered in without objections or, indeed, probably war. in fact, according to the "two messiahs" theory, the Moshiach ben yosef will be killed in these "wars of gog and magog" and the Moshiach that reigns afterward will be the Moshiach ben david - as i explained above if you read it.

what is more, what the gospels and john of patmos have to say about such subjects are of absolutely zero relevance to my opinions. as non-canonical, non-jewish writings, they have as much standing for me as the writings of karl marx.

also, would you mind making your formatting clearer, smaller and less blaring in future? it's completely unnecessary and, in fact it feels like you're shouting.

i hope this clears things up for you.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[InChristAlways]

I have a question about Isaiah 61/28. Is the tried stone of Isaiah 28 symbolizing Jesus and the acceptable year of the Lord. If so, and the jews are still waiting on their own messiah to come, do they realize that the Day of the Lord/Vengeance happens after he comes?

I do not know how the jewish religion views the Day of the Lord/God in the OT, but from what I see in the OT, that event can't happen untill their messiah comes to them first to preach the "Good news" ? What are others views on this as this appears to be pretty "cut and dry" to me? Thanks.
Steve

Isaiah 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, And the day of vengeance of our God; To comfort all who mourn,

2 Peter 3:12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?

Isaiah 28:14 Therefore hear the word of the LORD, you scornful men, Who rule this people who [are] in Jerusalem, 15 Because you have said, "We have made a covenant with death, And with Sheol we are in agreement. When the overflowing scourge passes through, It will not come to us, For we have made lies our refuge, And under falsehood we have hidden ourselves." 16 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, I lay in Zion a stone for a foundation, A tried stone, a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation; Whoever believes will not act hastily. 17 Also I will make justice the measuring line, And righteousness the plummet; The hail will sweep away the refuge of lies, And the waters [Daniel 9?] will overflow the hiding place. 18 Your covenant with death will be covered over/atoned, And your agreement with Sheol will not stand; When the overflowing scourge passes through, Then you will be trampled down by it.

the "day of HaShem" and the "day of vengeance" refer to the messianic period when persecution will cease and peace will reign on earth. we explain the idea that the "day of vengeance" coming after the Moshiach as being the fact that this messianic era will not be ushered in without objections or, indeed, probably war. in fact, according to the "two messiahs" theory, the Moshiach ben yosef will be killed in these "wars of gog and magog" and the Moshiach that reigns afterward will be the Moshiach ben david - as i explained above if you read it.

what is more, what the gospels and john of patmos have to say about such subjects are of absolutely zero relevance to my opinions. as non-canonical, non-jewish writings, they have as much standing for me as the writings of karl marx.

Thank you for your reply and sorry about the "fonts". How do I change it to be like the one you have?

I understand both the jewish and Islamic religions do not believe in the book of revelation but for me personally, if not for that book, I would have a hard time believing any of the Bible, much less Noah, Moses, Abraham, Isaac etc even existing. I also view it differently than mainstream xtianity, much like the guy at this site does.

http://www.awitness.org/lostmess/daniel.html

What is the covenant of death signifying in Isaiah 28 that will be covered over upon the destruction of Jerusalem? Did that not apply to those rulers/priest of the House/Nation of Judah/Levi in the first century also [the ones cursed in Malachi for example]?

In genesis for example, it never says there will be peace on the whole earth but that the True people of God, through Peace, Love and Compassion will always be able to conquer hatred/enmity through the spirit of our Lord God.
So judaism does not believe any of the Day of the Lord prophecies [including Daniel 11/12] applied to the destruction of their temple and city in the first century and the permanent ceasing of the "Continual"?

What sacrifice is Zephaniah talking about?

Zeph: 7 Be silent before the Lord God! For the day of the Lord is at hand; the Lord has prepared a sacrifice and consecrated his guests. 8 And on the day of the Lord's sacrifice- "I will punish the officials and the king's sons and all who array themselves in foreign attire. 9 On that day I will punish every one who leaps over the threshold,

Revelation 8:1 When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.

Ezekiel 39: 17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, [even]a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.

[size=+2] Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying, "Come out of her, My People, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.[/size][size=+2]

reve 19:17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, "Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 "that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men,[/size]

 

[iBrian]

I understand both the jewish and Islamic religions do not believe in the book of revelation but for me personally, if not for that book, I would have a hard time believing any of the Bible,

Just a friendly reminder that this is the Judaism board for discussion of Judaism - I hope we don't see this discussion moving into a justification of Christianity, because if so, it's on the wrong part of the forums.

As for formatting - once posted in, you may benefit from highlighting the text in the reply box, then clicking on the top left symbol, showing two Blue AA's with a red cross over them - that will remove excess formatting.

 

[InChristAlways]

I do not know how the jewish religion views the Day of the Lord/God in the OT, but from what I see in the OT, that event can't happen untill their messiah comes to them first to preach the "Good news" ? What are others views on this as this appears to be pretty "cut and dry" to me? Thanks.
Steve

Isaiah 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, And the day of vengeance of our God; To comfort all who mourn,

2 Peter 3:12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?

Isaiah 28:14 Therefore hear the word of the LORD, you scornful men, Who rule this people who [are] in Jerusalem, 15 Because you have said, "We have made a covenant with death, And with Sheol we are in agreement. When the overflowing scourge passes through, It will not come to us, For we have made lies our refuge, And under falsehood we have hidden ourselves." 16 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, I lay in Zion a stone for a foundation, A tried stone, a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation; Whoever believes will not act hastily. 17 Also I will make justice the measuring line, And righteousness the plummet; The hail will sweep away the refuge of lies, And the waters [Daniel 9?] will overflow the hiding place. 18 Your covenant with death will be covered over/atoned, And your agreement with Sheol will not stand; When the overflowing scourge passes through, Then you will be trampled down by it.

Just a friendly reminder that this is the Judaism board for discussion of Judaism - I hope we don't see this discussion moving into a justification of Christianity, because if so, it's on the wrong part of the forums.

As for formatting - once posted in, you may benefit from highlighting the text in the reply box, then clicking on the top left symbol, showing two Blue AA's with a red cross over them - that will remove excess formatting.

Ok. Thanks. I guess I do not understand why there is such a gulf between Judaism and Islam with Christ-ianity stuck in the middle, but the Lord does everything for a reason and I remember when I first read the Bible through 3 years ago, I felt that book just "dropped down from heaven", and it would be so much simpler if God just brought His presence to earth like He did in the Tanach. Revelation is a fascinating book and almost like reading through the books of Exodus and Joshua in some ways.
I will bow out of this board since I have nothing to add concerning the religion of judaism and I apologize for bringing the NT up here. Shalom with Peace and Love to all.
Steve

Exodus 19:16 And it came to pass on the third day, when it was morning, that there were thunders and lightnings and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of a horn exceeding loud; and all the people that were in the camp trembled.

Revelation 16:18 and there came voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and a great earthquake came, such as came not since men came upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake--so great!

 

[bananabrain]

I understand both the jewish and Islamic religions do not believe in the book of revelation but for me personally, if not for that book, I would have a hard time believing any of the Bible, much less Noah, Moses, Abraham, Isaac etc even existing.

really? i have to say that the figures of the biblical patriarchs will be found to be genuinely human and psychologically complex upon a close study (with authoritative interpretation and commentary) - in fact, i'd go so far as to say that i'd say the same of the character of jesus in the gospels. certainly far more convincing than what i consider to be the sheer wackiness, hallucinatory and incoherent nature of the book of revelations. i suppose it depends what your standard of belief expects.

What is the covenant of death signifying in Isaiah 28 that will be covered over upon the destruction of Jerusalem? Did that not apply to those rulers/priest of the House/Nation of Judah/Levi in the first century also [the ones cursed in Malachi for example]?

i think you're missing the fundamental point where it comes to prophetic invective. the prophet, here, was writing during the reign of the evil kings (one of whom, manasseh, eventually had him murdered) about the sorry state which the israelites had got themselves into. they had become idolaters and sinners, ignorant of the Torah and disdainful of justice. in short, they thought they were powerful enough to ignore G!D's wishes with impunity and, as we saw, they were mistaken. the "covenant of death" in this context therefore means their misguided reliance on the protection of their idols from the consequences of their wickedness. i suppose it could be extended to the behaviour of the collaborators and sadducees in the time of the second Temple, who thought they could rely on the romans for protection and support. instead of which, of course, the romans turned upon them and destroyed the Temple. and without a reference, i don't know what bit of malachi you're referring to.

In genesis for example, it never says there will be peace on the whole earth but that the True people of G!D, through Peace, Love and Compassion will always be able to conquer hatred/enmity through the spirit of our Lord G!D.

likewise, i don't know where you're referring to here.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[InChristAlways]

Isaiah 28:14 Therefore hear the word of the LORD, you scornful men, Who rule this people who [are] in Jerusalem, 15 Because you have said, "We have made a covenant with death, And with Sheol we are in agreement. When the overflowing scourge passes through, It will not come to us, For we have made lies our refuge, And under falsehood we have hidden ourselves." 16 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, I lay in Zion a stone for a foundation, A tried stone, a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation; Whoever believes will not act hastily. 17 Also I will make justice the measuring line, And righteousness the plummet; The hail will sweep away the refuge of lies, And the waters [Daniel 9?] will overflow the hiding place. 18 Your covenant with death will be covered over/atoned, And your agreement with Sheol will not stand; When the overflowing scourge passes through, Then you will be trampled down by it.

. they had become idolaters and sinners, ignorant of the Torah and disdainful of justice. in short, they thought they were powerful enough to ignore G!D's wishes with impunity and, as we saw, they were mistaken. the "covenant of death" in this context therefore means their misguided reliance on the protection of their idols from the consequences of their wickedness.

i suppose it could be extended to the behaviour of the collaborators and sadducees in the time of the second Temple, who thought they could rely on the romans for protection and support. instead of which, of course, the romans turned upon them and destroyed the Temple. and without a reference, i don't know what bit of Malachi you're referring to.

Thanks banan. Wasn't there a great Jewish rebellion in the City before the Romans got there and it was the rebellions that eventually brought the heathen Romans to come against Israel and Judea?

This is what the jewish rulers/priests [Isaiah 28] were worried about in John 11:48 of the "GNT". Paul also mentions a "delusion" sent to believe a "lie" on which I am working on.[providing these "books" were written before that destruction]

John 11:48 if we may let him alone thus, all will believe in him; and the Romans will come, and will take away both our place and nation.'

2 Thessalonians 2:11 and because of this shall God send to them a working of delusion/error [#4106], for their believing the lie,

Malachi 2:1 And now, to you [is] this charge, O priests, 2 If ye hearken not, and if ye lay [it] not to heart, To give honour to My name, said Jehovah of Hosts, I have sent against you the curse, And I have cursed your blessings, Yea, I have also cursed it, Because ye are not laying [it] to heart. 3 Lo, I am rebuking your seed, And have scattered dung [#06569] before your faces, Dung of your festivals,

This is what the historian Josephus had to say about that destruction and what stuck out at me was the "ordure of oxen" which ironically, Malachi 3 appeared to mention in some form? Believe it or not, I still shed tears when I read this account.

"Meanwhile the horrors of famine grew still more melancholy and afflictive. The Jews, for want of food were at length compelled to eat their belts, their sandals, the skins of their shields, dried grass, and even the ordure of oxen.

.......... Before their final demolition, however, Titus took a survey of the city and its fortifications ; and, while contemplating their impregnable strength, could not help ascribing his success to the peculiar interposition of the ALMIGHTY HIMSELF. "Had not God himself (exclaimed he) aided out operations, and driven the Jews from their fortresses, it would have been absolutely impossible to have taken them ; for what could men, and the force of engines, have done against such towers as these ?" ...............

 

[chokmah]

Shalom Banana:

In a post above, you make mention of the "two Messiahs".

I wanted to ask just briefly if you take the Messiah ben Yosef to be a "real" person? Recently, I have read where Messiah ben Yosef is more of a midrashic representation of the "yetzer hara". The destruction of the yetzer hara would, in essence, establish the Messianic era in an absence of war. Your thoughts?

 

[mee]

[SIZE=+2]I have a question about Isaiah 61/28. Is the tried stone of Isaiah 28 symbolizing Jesus [/SIZE]quote]
.The apostle Peter, quoting Isaiah’s words, showed that Jesus Christ, a distant descendant of Hezekiah, is the "tried stone" and that no one exercising faith in Him need have any fear. (1 Peter 2:6) How sad that the leaders of Christendom, while calling themselves Christian, have done what Jesus refused to do! They have sought prominence and power in this world rather than wait on Jehovah to bring about his Kingdom under Jesus Christ the King.—Matthew 4:8-10.

 

[bananabrain]

mee, i appreciate that you are entitled to your opinion, but carpet-bombing threads in the judaism forum with the JW "answer" as if it is the only possible interpretation only serves to illustrate that you choose to ignore what we say about our own texts - see my explanation of the "foundation stone" above:

http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/51764-post2.html

b'shalom

bananabrain