Islam and The Bahai Faith

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imranshaykh

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Dear Friends:

The Bahai Faith projects itself as the new dispensation for this era and the one which supercedes all previous divine religions like Islam.

I have been a student of the Faith for long and beg to differ with this concept. All the material in Islam - The Quran and the traditions point to the opposite.

I am happy to initiate this forum and look forward to queries and an amicable dicussion on Islam and the Bahai Faith.

Regards
Imran Shaykh
http://www.bahaiawareness.com
 
While there's nothing wrong with asking sincere questions of other faiths, the Walled Garden approach at CR means the Baha'i section is for interested persons to ask about the Baha'i faith. Faith boards are not set up so that other faiths may attack them.

With that in mind I've also removed your link to the anti-Baha'i site.

If this thread is to be a genuine interested discourse into the Baha'i faith then it may remain here, but if you're looking for a more comparative discussion of Islam and Baha'i, then this thread will probably need to be moved to the Comparative Studies board.
 
I said:
While there's nothing wrong with asking sincere questions of other faiths, the Walled Garden approach at CR means the Baha'i section is for interested persons to ask about the Baha'i faith. Faith boards are not set up so that other faiths may attack them.

With that in mind I've also removed your link to the anti-Baha'i site.

If this thread is to be a genuine interested discourse into the Baha'i faith then it may remain here, but if you're looking for a more comparative discussion of Islam and Baha'i, then this thread will probably need to be moved to the Comparative Studies board.
Click to expand...

I have noted your reply and respect the norms of this faith board.

However you will appreciate that in any forum, questions will be asked and replies given which may or may not suit the thought process of either the questioner or of the one who is replying. Just having a difference of opinion and moreso seeking a clarification, one way or the other, does not constitute an "attack" on any Faith. And it is not my intention to do so as well.

Secondly, there is no process to verify the antecedents of the contributors to the Forum in terms of their academic levels and authority on the subject in question (gven the size of the Forum, it is extremely difficult to do so - I recognise that). So naturally, you may find persons misrepresenting the subject under discussion. In such a situation, one will need to correct the misrepresentation. Which may appear as an "attack" to some and a genuine correction of ideals to another.

Having said that, you are the Administrator of this wonderful Forum and I have no intention to break the law of the land. But I request that what constitues an "attack" be looked upon objectively. I also hope that you appreciate that I have not gone into an existing Forum and started this conversation. It has been done as an independent thread.

Warm regards
Imran Shaykh
 
imranshaykh said:
The Bahai Faith projects itself as the new dispensation for this era and the one which supercedes all previous divine religions like Islam.

I have been a student of the Faith for long and beg to differ with this concept. All the material in Islam - The Quran and the traditions point to the opposite.
Click to expand...

Hi!

As a Baha'i, I couldn't disagree more!

I find nothing in the Qur'an to prevent later Divine Messengers.

And as to traditions, they're man-made and so don't even enter into the equation, IOV!

Peace,

Bruce
 
BruceDLimber said:
Hi!

As a Baha'i, I couldn't disagree more!

I find nothing in the Qur'an to prevent later Divine Messengers.

And as to traditions, they're man-made and so don't even enter into the equation, IOV!

Peace,

Bruce
Click to expand...

Sorry, I may sound ignorant - but can you tell me what IOV means :)

Secondly, could you please outline some of the verses of the Quran which announce the coming of new messengers.

Regards
Imran Shaykh
 
imranshaykh said:
Sorry, I may sound ignorant - but can you tell me what IOV means :)

Secondly, could you please outline some of the verses of the Quran which announce the coming of new messengers.
Click to expand...

In our view.

I'll be happy to do this, but you'll have to ask me again in a couple weeks: I'm currently recuperating from an injury and am confined to a wheelchair such that I can't get to my regular computer, which is where I have such things stored. I'll be happy to provide them later on if you give me an email address then.

One verse that I can remember off the top of my head speaks of the fact that if all the oceans were ink, this would not suffice to record all that God's Divine Revelation can provide! Clearly this is speaking of more than the Qur'an or other existing books....

Best,

Bruce
 
BruceDLimber said:
In our view.

I'll be happy to do this, but you'll have to ask me again in a couple weeks: I'm currently recuperating from an injury and am confined to a wheelchair such that I can't get to my regular computer, which is where I have such things stored. I'll be happy to provide them later on if you give me an email address then.

One verse that I can remember off the top of my head speaks of the fact that if all the oceans were ink, this would not suffice to record all that God's Divine Revelation can provide! Clearly this is speaking of more than the Qur'an or other existing books....

Best,

Bruce
Click to expand...

I would be delighted to receive the verses. My email address is imranshaykh@gmail.com.

Hope you get well soon.

Regards
Imran
 
Let's keep this to public, not private discussion, thanks - we tend not to encourage people to take up matters with strangers in private due to obvious privacy and intrusion risks.

As for the comment clarifying at "attack" - the link in the original post was to a Muslim site "exposing" the Baha'i faith.

The faith boards here are for genuine enquiries and discussion, though more comparative studies can be better accomodated on the comparative board.

Hey, and Bruce - get well soon. :)
 
This is my first post on this Forum after a long time and I appreciate opportunity to share with you.

As my friend Bruce is recovering I thought I might respond inpart to the initial question posed by the esteemed Imran...

My purpose here though is not so much as to pose arguments and enter a debate but rather to share in a general albeit modest way some of how I relate as a Baha'i to Islam.

First let me say that there is a kinship between Baha'i Faith and Islam in that we owe our early history to emerging from an Islamic heritage..specifically a more Shiah version of Islam and Baha'is recognize that the rightful succesor of Prophet Muhammad was Imam Ali and his descendants until the disappearance of the twelfth Imam. Our view is that like the other Imams the twelfth Imam was most probably murdered or eliminated in some way in a natural way.

That being said.. we believe the prophecies about the Return of the Twelfth Imam were fulfilled when the Bab declared His Mission in the year 1260 AH in Shiraz...this year coicided with the Gregorian Calendar year 1844 CE in which there was also a expectation of the Return of Christ among many Christians in America and Europe about that time.

Some of the Qur'anic references that we feel allude to the appearance of future Rasuli include the following:

O Children of Adam! there shall come to you Apostles from among yourselves, rehearsing my signs to you.

Qur'án 7:34

To every nation [ajal] a term; when their term comes they shall not put it back by a single hour nor put it forward.

- Qur'an 7:33

To each age [ajal] its Book.

- Qur'an 13:38

Neither too soon, nor too late, shall a people reach its appointed time.

- Qur'an 23:43

When considered these revealed verses suggest God has chosen a manner of revealing Himself to mankind through Messengers and Prophets (Rasuli) and that this is a continuing process.

Aside from this, I also wanted to say that our relationships with Muslims as a whole in most countries is a cordial one and one which in many communities can be a working partnership to focus on community needs and problems.

Unfortunately there are countries where Baha'is have been subjected to persecution and imprisonment for their beliefs and this is of course contrary to the revealed words "Let there be no compulsion in matters of religion".

In friendship,

- Art
 
arthra said:
This is my first post on this Forum after a long time and I appreciate opportunity to share with you.

As my friend Bruce is recovering I thought I might respond inpart to the initial question posed by the esteemed Imran...

My purpose here though is not so much as to pose arguments and enter a debate but rather to share in a general albeit modest way some of how I relate as a Baha'i to Islam.

First let me say that there is a kinship between Baha'i Faith and Islam in that we owe our early history to emerging from an Islamic heritage..specifically a more Shiah version of Islam and Baha'is recognize that the rightful succesor of Prophet Muhammad was Imam Ali and his descendants until the disappearance of the twelfth Imam. Our view is that like the other Imams the twelfth Imam was most probably murdered or eliminated in some way in a natural way.

That being said.. we believe the prophecies about the Return of the Twelfth Imam were fulfilled when the Bab declared His Mission in the year 1260 AH in Shiraz...this year coicided with the Gregorian Calendar year 1844 CE in which there was also a expectation of the Return of Christ among many Christians in America and Europe about that time.

Some of the Qur'anic references that we feel allude to the appearance of future Rasuli include the following:

O Children of Adam! there shall come to you Apostles from among yourselves, rehearsing my signs to you.

Qur'án 7:34

To every nation [ajal] a term; when their term comes they shall not put it back by a single hour nor put it forward.

- Qur'an 7:33

To each age [ajal] its Book.

- Qur'an 13:38

Neither too soon, nor too late, shall a people reach its appointed time.

- Qur'an 23:43

When considered these revealed verses suggest God has chosen a manner of revealing Himself to mankind through Messengers and Prophets (Rasuli) and that this is a continuing process.

Aside from this, I also wanted to say that our relationships with Muslims as a whole in most countries is a cordial one and one which in many communities can be a working partnership to focus on community needs and problems.

Unfortunately there are countries where Baha'is have been subjected to persecution and imprisonment for their beliefs and this is of course contrary to the revealed words "Let there be no compulsion in matters of religion".

In friendship,

- Art
Click to expand...

Many many thanks for your reply.
I have two questions:

1. You mentioned that the Bab fulfilled the prophecies of the twelfth Imam. Can you please outline specifically which of these prophecies did he fulfill?

2. For each of the above verses quoted by you, is there is supporting explanation by the Holy Prophet or the Imams to corroborate what you are saying?

Regards
Imran Shaykh
 
All the Imams were put to death except perhaps the last, who died as a child, in 260, and was succeeded for sixty-nine years by four successive "Gates" (abvab-i-arba'ih), who were known as his intermediaries. Then there was utter silence in Islam till the rise of the Báb in 1260 (the surih of Adoration states: "From the Heaven to the Earth He governeth all things: hereafter shall they come up to Him on a day whose length shall be a thousand of such years as ye reckon." (32:4). Hence the importance of the "Year Sixty.")

(Marzieh Gail, Six Lessons on Islam, p. 33)

When the twelfth Imam was said to have been occulted in the Islamic year 260, his absence was reconstituted as a mystical presence, such that the now Hidden Imam was continued to exercise spiritual sovereignty. (The Bab eventually claimed to be the "return" of the Hidden Imam.)

See Kitab-i-Iqan
by Christopher Buck
Published in Encyclopedia Iranica


The expectation of the Return of the Twelfth Imam and the Mahdi has been a common feature I think you could say. At first considering the title of Bab some may have thought this to mean a new intermediary between the Hidden Imam and the faithful but this understanding changed in time.

"On the other hand, the last Imam disappeared in the year 260 of the Hegira; it is at that time that the prophetic manifestation is completed and that `The door of science is closed.' But Mufaddal questioned the Imam Sadiq as to the signs of the coming of the Mihdi and the Imam answered: `He will appear in the year sixty and his name will be glorified.' This means in the year 1260 which is precisely the year of the manifestation of the Bab.

Cited from "The Dawn Breakers" Chapter XIII



The verses in Qur'an are not from a Muslim exegesis.

- Art
 
arthra said:
All the Imams were put to death except perhaps the last, who died as a child, in 260, and was succeeded for sixty-nine years by four successive "Gates" (abvab-i-arba'ih), who were known as his intermediaries. Then there was utter silence in Islam till the rise of the Báb in 1260 (the surih of Adoration states: "From the Heaven to the Earth He governeth all things: hereafter shall they come up to Him on a day whose length shall be a thousand of such years as ye reckon." (32:4). Hence the importance of the "Year Sixty.")

(Marzieh Gail, Six Lessons on Islam, p. 33)

When the twelfth Imam was said to have been occulted in the Islamic year 260, his absence was reconstituted as a mystical presence, such that the now Hidden Imam was continued to exercise spiritual sovereignty. (The Bab eventually claimed to be the "return" of the Hidden Imam.)

See Kitab-i-Iqan
by Christopher Buck
Published in Encyclopedia Iranica


The expectation of the Return of the Twelfth Imam and the Mahdi has been a common feature I think you could say. At first considering the title of Bab some may have thought this to mean a new intermediary between the Hidden Imam and the faithful but this understanding changed in time.

"On the other hand, the last Imam disappeared in the year 260 of the Hegira; it is at that time that the prophetic manifestation is completed and that `The door of science is closed.' But Mufaddal questioned the Imam Sadiq as to the signs of the coming of the Mihdi and the Imam answered: `He will appear in the year sixty and his name will be glorified.' This means in the year 1260 which is precisely the year of the manifestation of the Bab.

Cited from "The Dawn Breakers" Chapter XIII

The verses in Qur'an are not from a Muslim exegesis.

- Art
Click to expand...

Thanks Art,

my points:

1. If the Last Imam - you are probably referring to Imam Hasan Askari (as) died in 260 AH, then are you saying that there was no living Imam after that? Then who were the four representatives reporting to? And if the Bab was to actually come after 1,000 years, why the brief period of 69 years. Did Allah leave the people without any guide for more than 900 years?

2. There are more than 1,000 traditions which outline the Mahdi, his genealogy etc. Will it then be correct to say that Islam was silent about the Mahdi?

3. Is the interpretation of the 1,000 years in the traditions as explained by the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and the Holy Imams (as) the same as explained by yourself?

4. When Islam started 13 years before the start of the Islamic calendar (the calendar started with the migration of the prophet from Mecca to Medina. The prophet at that time had already spent 13 years in Mecca), why is the 1,000 years being calculated from the death of the 11th Imam and not from the start of Islam? Is that a personal interpretation? Why are the 273 years (more than 25%) not taken into account for the calculation?

5. The tradition quoted in Dawn Breakers from Imam Sadiq (as) about the year 60 does not carry any reference. I have searched all over Muslim books - both Shiite and Sunni, without any luck for the same. This tradition apparently does not exist in any Islamic book. Given that there was a gap of definitely more than 1,000 years between Nabil / Shoghi Effendi and Imam Sadiq (as), surely they would have read it someplace. Can you please throw some light on this?

6. If we are happy to accept one tradition about the Mahdi - then why would one ignore the 1,000 other traditions about him?

7. There seems to be an apprarent contradiction between Iqan and Dawn Breakers. While the Iqan alludes that there was no physical 12th Imam, the Dawn Breakers mentions that there was a 12th Imam who physically disappeared.

8. Why did the understanding about the Bab change over time? Was this prophecised as well.

Thank you for your time and request your patience and attention to these points as well.

Regards
Imran
 
arthra said:
All the Imams were put to death except perhaps the last, who died as a child, in 260, and was succeeded for sixty-nine years by four successive "Gates" (abvab-i-arba'ih), who were known as his intermediaries. Then there was utter silence in Islam till the rise of the Báb in 1260 (the surih of Adoration states: "From the Heaven to the Earth He governeth all things: hereafter shall they come up to Him on a day whose length shall be a thousand of such years as ye reckon." (32:4). Hence the importance of the "Year Sixty.")
(Marzieh Gail, Six Lessons on Islam, p. 33)

When the twelfth Imam was said to have been occulted in the Islamic year 260, his absence was reconstituted as a mystical presence, such that the now Hidden Imam was continued to exercise spiritual sovereignty. (The Bab eventually claimed to be the "return" of the Hidden Imam.)
See Kitab-i-Iqan
by Christopher Buck
Published in Encyclopedia Iranica

The expectation of the Return of the Twelfth Imam and the Mahdi has been a common feature I think you could say. At first considering the title of Bab some may have thought this to mean a new intermediary between the Hidden Imam and the faithful but this understanding changed in time.

"On the other hand, the last Imam disappeared in the year 260 of the Hegira; it is at that time that the prophetic manifestation is completed and that `The door of science is closed.' But Mufaddal questioned the Imam Sadiq as to the signs of the coming of the Mihdi and the Imam answered: `He will appear in the year sixty and his name will be glorified.' This means in the year 1260 which is precisely the year of the manifestation of the Bab.
Cited from "The Dawn Breakers" Chapter XIII

The verses in Qur'an are not from a Muslim exegesis.

- Art
Click to expand...

Dear Art;

Many thanks for your time to respond. My points:

1. If the 11th Imam dies in 260 AH and was not succeeded by another Imam immediately, who were the four deputies reporting to. Who appointed the four deputies - it cannot be the 11th Imam as the latter deputies were not even born at that time. Secondly, there is no indication that the 11th Imam appointed the deputies.

2. As regards the verse about 1,000 years is there some explanation by the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and the Imam (as) about the same.

3. Why is the calculation of the 1,000 years being done from the death of the 11th Imam. Is this verse refers to the term of Islam, revealed in the Quran, then Islam started 13 years prior to the Islamic calendar (the calender commenced at the migration of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) from Mecca to Medina. The Prophet had been in Mecca for 13 years before migration). Why are the 273 years not included in the calculation?

4. The tradition quoted from Imam Sadiq (as) has no reference and my research for all that it is worth has been unable to locate the reference. Surely given that Nabil / Shoghi Effendi came at least 1,000 years after Imam Sadiq (as) surely they would have read the tradition someplace. Can you please throw some light on this or let me know the source from at least one Islamic source.

5. If one even accepts the tradition in Dawn Breakers, there seems to be an apparent contradiction in Iqan and Dawn Breakers about the Mahdi. The Iqan alludes that there was no Imam, while the Dawn Breakers says that there was an Imam who dissappear and who would "re-appear" in 1,260.

6. There are more than 1,000 traditions about the Mahdi, narrated continuously over the centuries. Will it then be correct to say that Islam was silent about the Mahdi?

7. If we can accept one tradition about the Mahdi (as in Dawn Breaker), why should one ignore the other 1,000 traditions about him?

8. Why did the understanding of the Bab change over time. Did the Bab change over time? Is there some prophecy which outlines this change in the Bab - I mean, is there some literature which says that the 12th Imam would be known as the gate and then as the 12th Imam.

9. As regards the verses, I am aware that they are from Quran. Can you throw some light on them from a Muslim exegesis.

Thank you for your patience. I request your attention to these points as well.

Regards
Imran
 
Imran,

We are Baha'is and not Muslims and we are not guided by the traditions that you obviously are guided by. You initially requested a response and seem to then ignore it...this is a symptom I think of your thinking and predisposition to be critical and condescending of our Faith and I think one could say a problem some Muslims have with our Faith that it is not taken seriously.

The website you represent is also extremely prejudiced against our Faith and not well informed or researched.

- Art
 
arthra said:
Imran,
We are Baha'is and not Muslims and we are not guided by the traditions that you obviously are guided by. You initially requested a response and seem to then ignore it...this is a symptom I think of your thinking and predisposition to be critical and condescending of our Faith and I think one could say a problem some Muslims have with our Faith that it is not taken seriously.

The website you represent is also extremely prejudiced against our Faith and not well informed or researched.

- Art
Click to expand...

Dear Art:

I have not ignored your reply. In fact I have taken it extremely seriously. My points reflect that. My web site seems to be the bone of contention and seems to come in the way of my seeking a response to the questions I pose.

You quote a verse of 1,000 years - I say very well and superb for having extracted one verse from 6,666 verses of the Quran. Now I ask you how is it calculated and relevant from the point of view of Islam and the Bahai Faith. And you tell me my web site is prejudiced and not informed! How is this reply related to an extremely simple question of how 1,000 years. I did not question your prejudice when you so liberally quoted a verse from the Quran as a proof for the Bahai Faith. Now when I ask, what I believe, is an extremely relevant question, you dont like it.

I am not guided solely by traditions. I am guided by the intellect which Allah gifted me and all individuals with. I am simply using it to seek answers to questions which arise in my mind and which I believe are very rational.

The Official Bahai Web site says, "Baha'u'llah emphasizes the fundamental obligation of human beings to acquire knowledge with their "own eyes and not through the eyes of others." One of the main sources of conflict in the world today is the fact that many people blindly and uncritically follow various traditions, movements, and opinions. God has given each human being a mind and the capacity to differentiate truth from falsehood. If individuals fail to use their reasoning capacities and choose instead to accept without question certain opinions and ideas, either out of admiration for or fear of those who hold them, then they are neglecting their basic moral responsibility as human beings."

I am only trying not to be blind in my prejudice (if I have a prejudice) against the Faith - I am trying to use, as Bahaullah said, "use the facility to differentiate between falsehood and truth". Also to "abstain from accepting without question certain opinions and ideas." so that I do not "neglect my basic moral responsibility as a human being."

So perhaps in seeking rational replies to my questions which because they are related to the question of Faith and therefore very close to my heart and hence important to me, I am more Bahai than most!

I seek your valuable response to the points which I raised in the previous post.

Regards
Imran
 
Just a note on the above...

These are issues of great importance to many Muslims and we Baha'is have our views on the subject...

No one has ever established the earthly existence of the Twelfth Imam as he was supposed to have been born and disappeared in secret...

Did speculation and prophecy develope around this personage? The answer is most certainly... The state of Shiah Islam was built on the supernatural existence of this Twelfth Imam and those four "gates" who came later claimed to offer continued guidance for awhile...

The Bab was believed to have fulfilled the prophecies...

Was Islam without guidance? In our view the Umayyad Caliphate and later rulers corrupted Islam.

Baha'is believe Imam Ali was the rightful appointed successor after the ascension of Prophet Muhammad.

Islam not unlike other religions has been riddled with sectarianism for centuries...

- Art
 
arthra said:
Just a note on the above...
These are issues of great importance to many Muslims and we Baha'is have our views on the subject...

No one has ever established the earthly existence of the Twelfth Imam as he was supposed to have been born and disappeared in secret...

Did speculation and prophecy develope around this personage? The answer is most certainly... The state of Shiah Islam was built on the supernatural existence of this Twelfth Imam and those four "gates" who came later claimed to offer continued guidance for awhile...

The Bab was believed to have fulfilled the prophecies...

Was Islam without guidance? In our view the Umayyad Caliphate and later rulers corrupted Islam.

Baha'is believe Imam Ali was the rightful appointed successor after the ascension of Prophet Muhammad.

Islam not unlike other religions has been riddled with sectarianism for centuries...

- Art
Click to expand...

I think you are missing the point. I keep on asking which prophecies did Bab fulfill.

My logic and the line of questioning is clear:

1. There are 12 Imams in Islam - prophecised by the Holy Prophets (pbuh). also testified by the Bab

2. These 12 Imams started from Imam Ali (as) upto Imam Hasan Askari (as). Prophecised by the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and testified by Bab.

3. These was a son born to Imam Hasan Askari. Prophecised by the Holy Prophet (pbuh). Testified by thousands of traditions and more importantly by the Bab.

4. This Imam will have a long life and he will be in occultation (hidden from the people) for a long time. He will have 2 occultations - one much longer than the other. Prophecised by the Holy Prophet, testified by traditions and by Shaykh Ahmed Ahsai, Sayyed Kazim Rashty AND the Bab.

Will it then be right to say that there is speculation about the 12th Imam when there are thousands of reports even describing his looks and features? This is an element which I am not able to reconcile personally.

The Bahais have given me conflicting answers about the 12th Imam - MOhammed Ibnil Hasan (Mohammed, the son of Imam Hasan Askari (as).

- At places, the Bahais tell us that there was no son born to Imam Hasan Askari. So no 12th Imam. My question, was there a son born to him?

- Then, we are told that there was a son born to him, but he went into occultation and no one knows where he is

- Then we are told that Bab was the spiritual return of this 12th Imam - if there was no Imam and only gates were there after the 11th Imam Hasan Askari, then why is the Bab the "return" of the 12th Imam? By using the term "return", we imply that there was a 12th Imam who was born and present and yes, he dissappeared. Is that correct?

Just a friendly reminder, you have not informed me yet about the verse of 1,000 years of how the calculation came about and also if there is any verse from the Holy Prophet about the same.

Also, if this verse is about the Bab, then why did the Bab not speak about the 1,000 years? Did Bahaullah say anything about it?

Regards
Imran Shaykh
 
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