How did the Israelites come to identify the one true God with YHVH and why did that God so vehemently proscribe the worship of Asherah, since she is descibed as his consort. Is this a change from the God of Abraham?
El, YHVH and Asherah
- Thread starter Prober
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JustifiedByFaith
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Prober said:
Dear Prober,
JustifiedByFaith
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Dear Prober,
I don't understand the question? Could you go a little further please?
I don't understand the question? Could you go a little further please?
Karimarie
Live without fear
Prober said:
As for the first part of the question, the Tetragrammaton (Yod-He-Vav-He, YHVH) is the name God used for Itself when speaking to Moses. Other names for God in Judaism (Adonai, Hashem, El, Elohim, Ein Sof et al) developed later on. Yes, all of them are Hebrew words, but the way the words were used in Biblical times was different than the way they are used now. Research seems to indicate that YHVH was the name commonly used by the Israelites and the Jews of the Bible until the beginning of Rabbinic Judaism, after which the names used today were instituted.
As for the second part, what are you talking about? Please clarify.
M
mee
Guest
because he causes to become, and everything that he promises comes true. just as moses said it would.Prober said:
The worship of Asherah involved the use of a sacred pole believed to be a sexual symbol.
Baal worship was often very immoral. and the true God wants his people to be a clean people .
the true God taught the Israelites how to worship him in a pure way.
some forms of worship are not acceptable to God. What about our day?
It seems that the name of the caananite volcano god (apparently living in Mt Sinai) was YHVH (also Baal-Peor) and Asherah was his consort.JustifiedByFaith said:
It's interesting to read the description in the Bible of the smoke, thunderings and Gode telling Moses "make sure the people don't come up here".
Also, when the golden calf gets melted and ground to powder, Moses makes the people drink the water into which he dumped it.
They get sick and he makes the Caduceus (Asherah pole?) which makes them well. It has been suggested that the Caduceus represents the method of extracting a certain worm from the body, wherein the physician would wrap the worm around a stick and keep turning slowly every day until the worm was pulled out.
Did the israelites get worms from drinking the golden calf water?
Did God have the israelites wipe out the Midianites so severely because of their worship of Asherah?
Can we draw any conclusions from other names of Asherah (Hathor, Whore of Babylon, Eve)?
If the israelites identified with God as YHVH starting at this point, did Moses think "cool volcano God myth, I can use this"? or were the Caananites worshiping the true God and didn't know it?
flowperson
Oannes
Before the Kingdom of Israel came into being through G-d's will, and before the tabernacle in the desert was created to communicate with G-d, there were more primitive forms of belief among the ancient Hebrews that involved worshipping the most high in "high places" among bunches of poles or staffs stuck in the ground known as "Groves". This was abolished and prohibited by the ruling class in about 600 bce at about the time when the kingdom became more urban as opposed to nomadic.
Anthropologists believe that this was a transitional form of worship carrying over more primitive ritual forms that were prevalent in ancient Asia wherein a chosen individual would climb the "universal tree" to communicate and intervene with the spirit world on behalf of the community that chose him to.
Invariably this was a male since it was a universal belief in the ancient times that the male G-d came from the sky, and the female G-d came from the earth. There are also inscribed pottery fragments and whole pieces that depict Yahweh and his consort Asherah. They are shown as anthropomorphic figures ( bearing a bodily resemblance to humans) but they are also shown to be wearing elaborate headdress/mask devices which exhibit smiling faces.
It was very important for ancients to visually depict their deities, and invariably they were both male and female, paired as they were in human life, since that was the image that they were created in from the beginning, male and female together, both the powers of the sky and earth working together to bring about the future through their progeny and works.
Now, the land of Palestine/Israel is the place where the concept of mono-theism was invented when the invisible-male-oriented-warrior-sky-G-d of the northern tribes of the holy land was merged with the male/female oriented G-d of the southern tribes to become the hidden presence, YHWH, among His people. At this time also an exclusive male-oriented warrior reference to G-d was originated that remains to this day, which, IMHO, is unfortunate and has led to much bloodshed in the ensuing millenia, as we have all witnessed recently yet once again. But the scientific record is clear that this was not always so as I have mentioned above.
It is also interesting to note that an etymological analysis of the name "ISRAEL" denotes three components. "Is" which is an ultimate statement of being. And in fact is the first concept related to Moses in G-d's first revelation to His people from the burning bush. "RA" which to me is a reference to the supreme deity of ancient Egypt. And "EL" which is a reference to the hidden warrior deity of the north. Together the name "Israel" says all that needs to be said about the monotheistic G-d that we believe in to this day.
If anyone has any questions or corrections/ additions about/to what I have presented, please feel free to post them.
flow....
Anthropologists believe that this was a transitional form of worship carrying over more primitive ritual forms that were prevalent in ancient Asia wherein a chosen individual would climb the "universal tree" to communicate and intervene with the spirit world on behalf of the community that chose him to.
Invariably this was a male since it was a universal belief in the ancient times that the male G-d came from the sky, and the female G-d came from the earth. There are also inscribed pottery fragments and whole pieces that depict Yahweh and his consort Asherah. They are shown as anthropomorphic figures ( bearing a bodily resemblance to humans) but they are also shown to be wearing elaborate headdress/mask devices which exhibit smiling faces.
It was very important for ancients to visually depict their deities, and invariably they were both male and female, paired as they were in human life, since that was the image that they were created in from the beginning, male and female together, both the powers of the sky and earth working together to bring about the future through their progeny and works.
Now, the land of Palestine/Israel is the place where the concept of mono-theism was invented when the invisible-male-oriented-warrior-sky-G-d of the northern tribes of the holy land was merged with the male/female oriented G-d of the southern tribes to become the hidden presence, YHWH, among His people. At this time also an exclusive male-oriented warrior reference to G-d was originated that remains to this day, which, IMHO, is unfortunate and has led to much bloodshed in the ensuing millenia, as we have all witnessed recently yet once again. But the scientific record is clear that this was not always so as I have mentioned above.
It is also interesting to note that an etymological analysis of the name "ISRAEL" denotes three components. "Is" which is an ultimate statement of being. And in fact is the first concept related to Moses in G-d's first revelation to His people from the burning bush. "RA" which to me is a reference to the supreme deity of ancient Egypt. And "EL" which is a reference to the hidden warrior deity of the north. Together the name "Israel" says all that needs to be said about the monotheistic G-d that we believe in to this day.
If anyone has any questions or corrections/ additions about/to what I have presented, please feel free to post them.
flow....
M
mee
Guest
Prober said:
flowperson
Oannes
Prober:
When trying to analyze and answer questions such as your last one, we are, of course, naturally limited by the mythical nature of Abraham and his experiences.
To me Abraham was representative of the transitional persona in the conversion of western civilizations' immersion in idol worship in the ancient times to societies that went on to worship an all-powerful, invisible, and loving G-d. Keed in mind that Abram's father was an idol maker in Ur in Babylonia when Abram was moved to become nomadic and seek a better way to worship G-d. It was then that he became known as "Abraham". The change in his name here is likely representative of a profound change in his persona, IMHO. These stories concerning his life and times as they appear in Genesis are all metaphors of what communities of real people likely went through and experienced during their conversion from one set of spiritual truths to another.
If you can locate a copy of Bill Moyers' wonderful television series from the 80's called, "The Power of Myth", which was a series of interviews with the late Joseph Campbell, then I believe that you would be more able to integrate these concepts with your knowledge. There was also a book published at the time by that name that should still be available on Amazon. I would also recommend reading anything that Campbell wrote as he was acknowledged to be the foremost expert of his time on mythology; and, in fact Campbell, who was a Roman Catholic, consulted with George Lucas before he created his Star Wars sagas.
flow....
When trying to analyze and answer questions such as your last one, we are, of course, naturally limited by the mythical nature of Abraham and his experiences.
To me Abraham was representative of the transitional persona in the conversion of western civilizations' immersion in idol worship in the ancient times to societies that went on to worship an all-powerful, invisible, and loving G-d. Keed in mind that Abram's father was an idol maker in Ur in Babylonia when Abram was moved to become nomadic and seek a better way to worship G-d. It was then that he became known as "Abraham". The change in his name here is likely representative of a profound change in his persona, IMHO. These stories concerning his life and times as they appear in Genesis are all metaphors of what communities of real people likely went through and experienced during their conversion from one set of spiritual truths to another.
If you can locate a copy of Bill Moyers' wonderful television series from the 80's called, "The Power of Myth", which was a series of interviews with the late Joseph Campbell, then I believe that you would be more able to integrate these concepts with your knowledge. There was also a book published at the time by that name that should still be available on Amazon. I would also recommend reading anything that Campbell wrote as he was acknowledged to be the foremost expert of his time on mythology; and, in fact Campbell, who was a Roman Catholic, consulted with George Lucas before he created his Star Wars sagas.
flow....
Karimarie
Live without fear
Prober said:
I've read a couple of commentaries and determined that the reason the Israelites destroyed the Midianites was because the Midianites hired Balaam to curse them.
Prober said:
A. No, because YHVH in the scope of the ancient Israelite religion was not a "volcano God"... People needed their symbols, but suggesting a "volcano God" was one of the important ones is silly. Regarding Moses thinking of God as a "volcano God", the question then has to be asked did Moses "invent" God or did God "invent" Moses?
B. The Midrash says that most of the other nations were worshipping angels under God's authority, while the Israelites were worshipping God (ie HaShem). Personally, I'm not sure the ancient religions were really worshipping anything at all, but that's the view of the Mishnaic and Talmudic Rabbis.
flowperson said:
I'm not sure what the Hebrew word for "Ra" is, but the 'Yis' and the 'El' certainly apply. It's interesting that a discussion of the word's syllables works in both English and in Hebrew.
flowperson
Oannes
Karimarie:
Hmmm... yeah it is...wonder how that happened ? Got any ideas ?
Oh...remember that back-in-the-day there was a Hebrew temple on the Elephantine Island in the middle of the Nile River in Egypt, and the only fully functioning one that existed outside of the one in Jerusalem. I believe that's where the "Ra" part comes into the picture, as Yahweh was known as the G-d of the tribes of the south of Palestine/Israel.
flow....
Hmmm... yeah it is...wonder how that happened ? Got any ideas ?
Oh...remember that back-in-the-day there was a Hebrew temple on the Elephantine Island in the middle of the Nile River in Egypt, and the only fully functioning one that existed outside of the one in Jerusalem. I believe that's where the "Ra" part comes into the picture, as Yahweh was known as the G-d of the tribes of the south of Palestine/Israel.
flow....
bananabrain
awkward squadnik
i'm sorry, flow, but this is bollocks. "israel" is the english translation of the word "YiSRaEL" (lowercase are vowels), which means "struggles with G!D" - the name given to jacob after his wrestling match. it has nothing to do with "is", let alone ra.
as for the rest of this:
yes, it is well known that the canaanites worshipped a bunch of gods whose names included the names "Ya-H" and "E-L". that's because these are both words signifying the Divine, while "ba'al" means "master", thus signifying another type of relationship. the fact that there were canaanite gods named Y-this and E-that is not actually indicative of anything much. what is notable about them is that they describe particular characteristics or areas of influence. they could have a god of plumbing called Y-plumbing for all i know. the hebrew approach to the Divine was revolutionary in that it rejected the notion that G!D could be parcelled out or circumscribed into limited spheres of influence. thus G!D was described as G!D, whether of the mountains or of the sea, or wherever. G!D Is G!D Is G!D. that's all there is to it. the fact that some canaanites or mesopotamians or phoenicians or whatever happened to have a god whose name "E-cutlery " means "the god of cutlery" is not indicative of anything about the idea of G!D promoted by biblical judaism.
now it is certainly true that the biblical israelites were known to have spent a considerable amount of their time worshipping local, or reduced versions of G!D that were the particular canaanite ones concerned with agriculture or mountains or whatever, but that's precisely the point - the Torah says they did that and that it was a sin, for which the word is "HET" - the word for an arrow missing its mark. in other words, it is a theological short-circuit, an easy mistake to make and one which the israelites were constantly making, under the influence of the canaanites and surrounding cultures. sometimes they even went as far as making statues (usually of calves) and picking up non-Y and E cults like that of ba'al-pe'or. not only that, but they fell into the error of imagining G!D to be male (because the Y's and E's of the canaanites were male) and therefore requiring a "mrs god" - and that is where asherah, anath and a whole bunch of other female goddesses come in.
the point is this - they're all wrong. the G!D of the hebrew bible transcends gender and just about everything else. the Divine is not a man that requires a wife, heaven forbid, nor the opposite. people simply get it wrong. people make mistakes and they try and make G!D in their own image, in a way that they can relate to, instead of understanding that G!D Is by definition One, not two. what archaeological evidence may show about actual behaviour is not indicative of what the correct thing to believe was, any more than a film about italian-american gangsters is an indication that that is what everyone italian-american is like, or that that sort of behaviour is acceptable and correct, despite being common.
b'shalom
bananabrain
Karimarie
Live without fear
flowperson said:
Not a one.
Karimarie
Live without fear
bananabrain said:
Check the Hebrew. Yis (ie Yod-Sin, יש) is a statement of existence. Ra... Well, I'm not sure on that one. El (Alef-Lamed, אל) is the word for "god".
Regarding it being Jacob's name... I don't know if Jacob/Israel ever really existed. Indeed, there's a lot of genetic evidence that he probably didn't, at least not in the way described in B'reshit. The existence of Aaron and Moses has been verified, but Israel and his sons are a bit less clear.
flowperson
Oannes
BB:
Thanks for your clarifications. I appreciate them all because I'm basically a "learning-by-doing" sort of person.
Yeah, I agree with your perceptions of oneness when it comes to G-d and how that concept is represented. When one goes back far enough in analyzing ancient folk beliefs, a-la The Golden Bough and other such works of comparative anthropology, an image of an androgynous supreme being emerges which exhibits both male and female attributes. But I'm also sure that all of the "heing and sheing" among the ancient Caananites and Hebrews had alot to do with the traditions of the region also.
flow....
Thanks for your clarifications. I appreciate them all because I'm basically a "learning-by-doing" sort of person.
Yeah, I agree with your perceptions of oneness when it comes to G-d and how that concept is represented. When one goes back far enough in analyzing ancient folk beliefs, a-la The Golden Bough and other such works of comparative anthropology, an image of an androgynous supreme being emerges which exhibits both male and female attributes. But I'm also sure that all of the "heing and sheing" among the ancient Caananites and Hebrews had alot to do with the traditions of the region also.
flow....
bananabrain
awkward squadnik
karimarie -
fair enough, of course that is what "yesh" means, but you can't split that word into three bits, because a resh by itself is not a prefix, so you wouldn't parse it like that. however yod-shin-resh means "straight" or "direct" or "correct" - so, perhaps "straight to G!D" or "correct to G!D". but you wouldn't split it into "yesh" and then "rael" because there's no such word as resh-alef-lamed, nor is there a root for that. leastways, not in my jastrow.
ok, but i'm talking Torah and language, here, not genetics. and who says that the existence of aaron and moses has been verified? i've never heard this. and, even so, what's it got to do with this discussion? jacob's cognomen is given to him in the Torah for reasons internal to the Text that are perfectly logical in that context. that's pretty much all i need to know. i don't require the external validation of science and archaeology for my beliefs to work as an integrated system.
flow - with all due respect to frazer and campbell and the like, comparative mythology as a deconstructive exercise is an ultimately fruitless exercise in terms of deriving meaning, although helpful i am sure to psychologists and those who want to think of themselves as being "in the know". you might as well say that "all human heroes have arms, legs and a head". this will almost always be a truism but it doesn't really teach you anything. i read "hero with a thousand faces" recently and found it deeply patronising, not to mention lacking deep insight of the traditions it so glibly synthesises. haven't read "golden bough" yet, but it's next on my bookshelf after i'm done with gibbon and josephus. and, judging from the size of those, i'll be a while.
anyone who wants to understand this issue of the "hebrew goddess" is advised to read the book of the same name by the eminent scholar raphael patai.
but - and it's a big but -
when you're done, read my first post on this thread again. and be aware that the interpretations put on much of the information in the book are not the only interpretations that work, particularly if you happen to know anything about the jewish mystical tradition.
b'shalom
bananabrain
fair enough, of course that is what "yesh" means, but you can't split that word into three bits, because a resh by itself is not a prefix, so you wouldn't parse it like that. however yod-shin-resh means "straight" or "direct" or "correct" - so, perhaps "straight to G!D" or "correct to G!D". but you wouldn't split it into "yesh" and then "rael" because there's no such word as resh-alef-lamed, nor is there a root for that. leastways, not in my jastrow.
ok, but i'm talking Torah and language, here, not genetics. and who says that the existence of aaron and moses has been verified? i've never heard this. and, even so, what's it got to do with this discussion? jacob's cognomen is given to him in the Torah for reasons internal to the Text that are perfectly logical in that context. that's pretty much all i need to know. i don't require the external validation of science and archaeology for my beliefs to work as an integrated system.
flow - with all due respect to frazer and campbell and the like, comparative mythology as a deconstructive exercise is an ultimately fruitless exercise in terms of deriving meaning, although helpful i am sure to psychologists and those who want to think of themselves as being "in the know". you might as well say that "all human heroes have arms, legs and a head". this will almost always be a truism but it doesn't really teach you anything. i read "hero with a thousand faces" recently and found it deeply patronising, not to mention lacking deep insight of the traditions it so glibly synthesises. haven't read "golden bough" yet, but it's next on my bookshelf after i'm done with gibbon and josephus. and, judging from the size of those, i'll be a while.
anyone who wants to understand this issue of the "hebrew goddess" is advised to read the book of the same name by the eminent scholar raphael patai.
but - and it's a big but -
when you're done, read my first post on this thread again. and be aware that the interpretations put on much of the information in the book are not the only interpretations that work, particularly if you happen to know anything about the jewish mystical tradition.
b'shalom
bananabrain
Karimarie
Live without fear
bananabrain said:
I'm not really making the argument that his etymology idea is correct, just acknowledging that it strangely also applies, even in Hebrew.
bananabrain said:
Genetics aren't a dangerous thing...
bananabrain said:
The fact that the most recent common ancestor of all kohanim was a man who lived in about 1000 BCE is pretty convincing evidence to me that a person existed who fathered all Jewish priests. Whether or not his name was 'Aaron' or not is up for debate and really not particularly important. What it says is that there is some legitimacy to the story of Sh'mot.
Search for information on the search for "Y-Chromosomal Aaron". It's actually quite interesting a development.
bananabrain said:
No, you don't *need* the external validation of science and archaelogy, but to reject scientific and archaeological findings that occur isn't helpful either as it turns your religion into a form of escapism where you do not wish to understand the truth of what transpired. It shuts down desire to learn and understand rather than encouraging it.
Study is a positive way to live one's life. Rejection thereof is not helpful.
I should remind also that Rambam was of the opinion that Torah must be interpreted in light of scientific findings and that if a scientific finding contradicts an interpretation of Torah, that interpretation is wrong and a new interpretation must be developed. You need not accept this philosophy, but it's the one I'm most inclined to agree with myself.