Jack Straw

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Virtual_Cliff

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I remember seeing an anthropologist on the TV a few months ago, in the remoter parts of Papua New Guinea. He was asked by a tribal leader to take off his clothes because they made him feel uncomfortable.

I wonder if Jack Straw would feel OK about going nude to put his host at ease.

I had the pleasure of spending a couple of years working in North Africa and Arabia. I now find it embarrassing to be represented by a politician who has less regard for the sensitivities of other cultures than any ordinary Briton on contract in the Middle East.

But the reaction of Muslim women I have heard on the radio has been remarkably emollient. Am I being over-harsh on Mr Straw?
 
i don't think this has anything to do with jack straw having no regard for the sensitivities of other cultures. he depends on the muslim vote in his constituency and he is, make no mistake, absolutely clear about what he has done. this is an entirely predictable storm in a teacup, yet one which touches upon extraordinarily important issues, like the significance of hiding your face in british culture.

quite apart from the fact that some muslims (like the predictable queue of rentaquote "beards of outrage", as opposed to the vast majority of sensible muslims) seem remarkably happy to pass over their own disregard for the sensitivities of british culture, most obviously in relation to free speech.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
Hi Virtual Cliff,

No, your not being over-harsh at all.

This story has just broken so I think we may be hearing a lot more of the 'harsher' words from Muslim women, muslims in general and Muslim organisations within the coming days; or maybe Muslims are just fed up of having to jump harshly to the defence almost every few days now!.

Peace.
 
An interesting point, BB. In our culture people with masks tend to up to no good. This could go a long way towards understanding our misgivings about the veil. But women used to be veiled in our culture too.

I wouldn't want this thread to be hijacked by the free speech debate, which has been discussed elsewhere, but I do think this needs to be looked at with care. I can think of a number of images which would create an outcry among Christians or Jews if published, but we don't do it because we know better. All Muslims want is the same standard of consideration we already afford to our more "native" religions.

Another point - while non-indiginous people may be expected to move towards a more British culture, this cannot happen all at once. Our hospitality should extend to respecting peoples cultures as they are now, here or abroad. They may evolve or even assimilate, but it is not for us to try to force the pace of change.
 
hi,just to say, its not a culture thing,please dont think its an asian thing,im white british/irish, saying its a culture thing means that white muslims wouldnt really apply,its a religion thing.say if i get married to awhite muslim woman,if she wears a nikaab (face covering) i dont want ppl thinking she does it because of asian culture,she will do it because of islam.i hate it when i get looked at for being a white muslim,what difference should there be,just becasue im white?
 
I'd like to see politicians remove their masks of deceitful smiling.

I would also think that if the Muslim women in Mr Straw's constituency have the individual freedom to choose whether or not they wear a veil they might also have the freedom to enter their mosques; but on TV the other night a Muslim woman said that they were not allowed.

:confused: :confused: :( :(
 
James, with great respect I think it is a culture thing. You probably need to adopt the cultural tags of the community you worship with. But according to my (limited) understanding, Muslim women are expected to dress modestly, and to use their discretion as to how to implement that requirement. There is much traditional teaching but no absolute stipulation as to what dress standards shouild be adopted. Please correct me if I am wrong.
 
When the verse "That they should cast their outer garments over their persons" was revealed, the women of Ansar came out as if they had crows over their heads by wearing outer garments.

The lower half of the hijab is a garment that does not show the woman's figure. Jeans and certain obvious garments do not meet this requirement.

i am quite offended you think i am involved in culture,i am english and irish,all my family is,i dont wear islaic clothing,and hate when people mix asian culture with islam,islam is not asian.i am not asian,i dont like culture.

islam teaches modesty,correct.islam gives borders on this.if my wife wore a long not tight dress,that would be ok,jeans/trousers show her figure.

Allah says: 'O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) over their bodies (when outdoors). That is most convenient that they should be known and not molested.' (S33:59).

"Allah commanded the muslim women to cover a sheet on top of them to cover their bodies except one eye, when it is necessary for them to come out of their homes."

i cant go into a lot of detail on this,but i no some girls taht can,the long cloak girls wear is islamic,not asian.the face covering is more modesty.have you ever seen a girl wearing a face covering who doesnt have the cloak on?...no...even if the jeens are baggy,they still show the figure,the cloak doesnt.the girl i may be getting engaged to wears the cloak,i have no idea what her body is like​
 
also, men ahve to dress modestly,hence the long cloak the men wear is for modesty,i dont wear it yet,but maybe in the future,but i try not to wear tight clotehs at the moment
 
It used to be, in the West, that women had to wear long dresses. When a woman would lift her dress slightly to cross the street, men would gaze at the exposed ankle. Now, ankles are exposed and no one thinks it's a big deal. Similarly, most Westerners today who grow up looking at women in shorts or even tank tops don't find it as much of a big deal. Sure, they'll look at an attractive woman, but the vast majority have no problem controlling themselves. There are even nudist colonies who do just fine. This is also the case in primitive tribes where the people go nearly nude.

But the more one covers up, the more attractive men will find even the slightest exposure, or even the possibility of seeing the forbidden. Perhaps this explains the Muslim rape epidemic sweeping throughout Europe.

http://www.iris.org.il/blog/archives/757-Pan-European-Arab-Muslim-Gang-Rape-Epidemic.html

What are the usual arguments from Islam in response to the fact that other cultures with less female covering do not experience higher rates of rape?

Many thanks
 
james said:

i am quite offended you think i am involved in culture,i am english and irish,all my family is,i dont wear islaic clothing,and hate when people mix asian culture with islam,islam is not asian.i am not asian,i dont like culture.


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I apologise if I unwittingly offended you James. What I mean by culture is just what everyone has, that is, the customs and way of life that are usual where you live.
Do you think that in the West, women would be more likely to be raped if they did not wear the veil? I doubt it. The same sort of question arises from verses in the Bible. St Paul said that women should keep their heads covered. This was because among the people he was writing to, it would have been scandalous for a woman's hair to be seen uncovered. This does not apply in the West.
Muslim women may wish to adopt the veil as a statement of their faith, in the same way that Sikh men wear the turban. In a civilised society this should be their right.
 
i get what you say,but think about this, st paul said women should cover their heads then, so you saying that it doesnt apply now due to society is basically you saying your religion has changed and taht rulkes back in the day dont apply now?in islam every rule given was for all of mankind, for all of the time,not just for one set of people, becasue how would this be a revelation from god?something that changes,unless god said it can change,this is a big difference between islam and other faiths
 
It would not be accurate to say my views represent those of all Christians. Far from it. There are many with the same approach as you - that everything written in the Bible stands for all time.

Others, like myself argue that when the world changes and our religion does not change, the religion no longer speaks the truth to us.

If someone said to you, "Catch the train to Slough. My house is opposite the station." But the train went through Slogh without stopping and you got off at Paddington, would you still look opposite the station for your friend? No. But that doesn't mean that he was telling lies. What you have to do is work out for yourself where he lived, and then find the best way there.

As for the veil, I know that this debate is going on in Muslim circles. I accept that for many women, going unveiled would feel the same to them as going out without my trousers would feel to me. I would feel awkward and embarrased. Straw should not even ask this of women.
 
james said:
i get what you say,but think about this, st paul said women should cover their heads then, so you saying that it doesnt apply now due to society is basically you saying your religion has changed and taht rulkes back in the day dont apply now?in islam every rule given was for all of mankind, for all of the time,not just for one set of people, becasue how would this be a revelation from god?something that changes,unless god said it can change,this is a big difference between islam and other faiths
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The trouble is the veil isn't required in all Muslim societies.

And as per Straw's comments - apparently all he said is that he respectfully asks women with veils on their faces when speaking to him to remove it, so that they can see each other face to face.
 
the veil isnt required in all muslim societies?
it has nothing to do with society,its something a woman does to increase her love for Allah and the love He has for her.its like some guys have neards to gain extra reward,some women wear a full veil,upto her completely.if jack straw is talkin to a muslim woman with a veil, why does he have to look at her face to hear her words,when you talk to someone you look in their eyes,he can do this,unless she has them covered also.some scholars will agree taht the veil is compulsory,its all about modesty.the women dotn do it to annoy anyone,they do it for themselves and for Allah,and are now getting persecuted for it, its really not fare is it?my views on the veil are mixed,and would only ever let my wife wear one if she is doing it solely for Allah and not for me atall
 
the veil cannot predate islam, islam has existed since before the universes creation,you might think how...but we beleive god has always existedd and taht there is not god but Allah, nothing can be joined to Him or compared, this fact has always existed, as god has always existed,and the angels existed before us and knew this fact
 
I said:
And as per Straw's comments - apparently all he said is that he respectfully asks women with veils on their faces when speaking to him to remove it, so that they can see each other face to face.
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The trouble is, Brian, I don't think it was respectful. Suppose he was in Kuwait and was introduced to a senior Kuwaiti diplomat and his wife, would he ask this man's wife "respectfully" to unveil? I doubt it.

By making his request he is making an implied criticism of the culture in which this dress is normal. He is further implying (in fact saying openly) that our Western culture is superior. What he fails to understand is that our Western culture is widely held to be both decadent and blasphemous by many other cultures.

What makes it worse is that he has opened the lid to a Pandora's box full of racism that he cannot control, and which can only lead to widespread unrest and resentment.
 
james said:
the veil cannot predate islam, islam has existed since before the universes creation,you might think how...but we beleive god has always existedd and taht there is not god but Allah, nothing can be joined to Him or compared, this fact has always existed, as god has always existed,and the angels existed before us and knew this fact
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Allah and Islam are two different things aren't they? Allah is an entity and Islam is a body of thought, belief, and lifestyle. I've read that the basis of Islam is "There is one God and Muhammad is his messenger". How can Islam then predate the birth of Muhammad? Also, how can it predate the Koran? And if Islam means "submission to Allah's will" then how can it exist before mankind? (who is doing the 'submitting'?)

By saying Islam existed before the Koran and before Muhammad, aren't you implying that Islam could exist *without* the Koran and *without* Muhammad? What Muslim would agree with that?
 
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