Christian Idolaters?
- Thread starter Prober
- Start date
Nice question!
Catholic – so in my view – No – but bring on the iconoclast debate!
Here's a corollary:
There is a certain kind of modern Divine Image of Christ – I'm thinking especially of a print I've seen of Christ the Sacred Heart – in which he looks suspiciously like an Englishmans' idea of a Californian beach bum:
Sacred Heart of Jesus Photos
(second row, 1st pic)
Oh no! there's hundreds of 'em:
http://artfiles.art.com/images/-/Chiu/Jesus-Sacred-Heart-Print-C12040326.jpeg
I really do not like that kind of image.
(Oh Lord, just suppose ... no, it doesn't bear thinking about ...)
Thomas
Catholic – so in my view – No – but bring on the iconoclast debate!
Here's a corollary:
There is a certain kind of modern Divine Image of Christ – I'm thinking especially of a print I've seen of Christ the Sacred Heart – in which he looks suspiciously like an Englishmans' idea of a Californian beach bum:
Sacred Heart of Jesus Photos
(second row, 1st pic)
Oh no! there's hundreds of 'em:
http://artfiles.art.com/images/-/Chiu/Jesus-Sacred-Heart-Print-C12040326.jpeg
I really do not like that kind of image.
(Oh Lord, just suppose ... no, it doesn't bear thinking about ...)
Thomas
Hmmm....response....I'm in the Judaism thread...I wonder why I am here?
But I'd say spending untold hours on one sabbath watching college football, or on another watching the professional game...I think that often many spend more time worshipping and focusing thought, prayers, and epithats at sports and ohther slime that oozes out on our living room floors...that becomes idol worship, and even another G-d for some...
I don't believe Jesus ever intended to be worshipped. Followed, learned from, yes...but not worshipped.
But I'd say spending untold hours on one sabbath watching college football, or on another watching the professional game...I think that often many spend more time worshipping and focusing thought, prayers, and epithats at sports and ohther slime that oozes out on our living room floors...that becomes idol worship, and even another G-d for some...
I don't believe Jesus ever intended to be worshipped. Followed, learned from, yes...but not worshipped.
Hey Prober.
That's a question that's been debated for a very long time. One important thing to define first is the word idolatry. In Hebrew the term is actually avodah zara which means "strange/foreign worship/service" so it's a little more ambiguous than the english word. However, the general opinion today is that the worship of Jesus would be idolatry for a Jew, not for a Christian.
Dauer
That's a question that's been debated for a very long time. One important thing to define first is the word idolatry. In Hebrew the term is actually avodah zara which means "strange/foreign worship/service" so it's a little more ambiguous than the english word. However, the general opinion today is that the worship of Jesus would be idolatry for a Jew, not for a Christian.
Dauer
Okay, please help me with this. I'm asking for opinions...
Number 3 of the Noahide (sp) laws - if Christians that believe Jesus is God violate this one, how can they reach the "hereafter"?
Sincerely - I'm asking because we borrowed our tradition from you:
Can a fundamentalist Christian be "saved"?
Would it be better to convert or not to believe Jesus is God?
Please coment...
Number 3 of the Noahide (sp) laws - if Christians that believe Jesus is God violate this one, how can they reach the "hereafter"?
Sincerely - I'm asking because we borrowed our tradition from you:
Can a fundamentalist Christian be "saved"?
Would it be better to convert or not to believe Jesus is God?
Please coment...
bananabrain
awkward squadnik
personally, i am extremely strict about my application of 'avodah zarah. considering that the penalties for a-z are severe and that the precautions for avoiding contact with "akum" (an acronym for "worshippers of the stars and planets") are extremely stringent, i am incredibly reluctant to consider anyone an idolater. if i were to consider christianity idolatrous, i would be unable to do business with, rent a house to, or even engage in discussion with a christian. this would, incidentally, put me in breach of my other obligation to abide by the "law of the land", which forbids discrimination. nonetheless, even such great sages as maimonides considered christianity idolatrous because of the trinity, although he is clearly as mistaken in this view as those who consider that the kabbalists "worship" the sefirot, G!D forbid. i personally prefer to put it down to the fact that he didn't actually know any christians apart from the hairy armoured nutters who were busy trying to reconquer iberia from the moors at the time - and although he concedes that islam is clearly monotheistic, he's still not terribly complimentary about it or muhammad. fortunately, he's not the authoritative view in these matters, which is apparently derived from that of the me'iri (C12th, france) that "idolatry is not a matter of statues". this not only lets catholics and eastern orthodox christians, but almost all hindus, buddhists and animists off the hook. personally, i hold that the prohibitions against idolatry are aimed at the hideous perversions of religion current in the ancient world, involving human and even child sacrifice, prostitution and orgiastic rites. in other words, if this isn't going on, it's almost certainly not what we mean by 'avodah zarah.
it is, however, unfortunate that christianity is still routinely taught to be 'avodah zarah in the mainstream yeshiva world. fortunately, the restrictions seem to be more or less ignored as far as business is concerned, probably on the grounds that "the Torah safeguards the livelihood of jews".
b'shalom
bananabrain
it is, however, unfortunate that christianity is still routinely taught to be 'avodah zarah in the mainstream yeshiva world. fortunately, the restrictions seem to be more or less ignored as far as business is concerned, probably on the grounds that "the Torah safeguards the livelihood of jews".
b'shalom
bananabrain
Dondi
Well-Known Member
i dunno. It seems that many of the teachings of Jesus are rabbinical, paricularly the central teaching of loving God and loving one's neighbor. If Jesus's purpose is to point us to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, I can't see how this could be idolatrous.
S
Silas
Guest
Thats a good question, I think? As humans, we are already prone to idolatery. The essence of this particular sin is that we do things and love things that show we dont value or appricaite God above those things. And so God says to always put Him first, or to "have no other gods before me," or "Love your God with all your mind, strenght, soul, etc.," but we rearly do it. Jesus himself said, "If you dont love me more than your husband or wife or sister or brother, etc., you are not worthy of me." This brings me to your question. Jesus claims to be God and so to put Him first isnt idolatery, its right!
Dondi
Well-Known Member
Remember where you are, Silas.
What if I claimed to be God? Putting me first wouldn't be idolatery, it's right? right?
Many people in history have claimed to be God. Which one should we worship? A person's claiming to be God does not make it so. One better back one's claim with more than an assertion.
Cage
Spirit Guided
I think idolotry is more about creating gods/carved images and such, and worshiping them as opposed to the one true G-d. If Jesus came, and did G-d's will then I don't think [honoring] him is an idolotrist act, but I sometimes wonder if [outright worship] is what he, or G-d wanted. Jesus never demanded worship, or even servitude. He only asked that we follow his lead, and Love G-d as well as our neighbors.
My aunt once siad I'd make a great Jew, lol! What is the Jewish view of the man named Jesus, anyway? Do you guys think we should honor, and perhaps follow his lead like the other prophets? Does the Jewish community think he deserve this much respect, or no? Obviously, I know little about what you believe, so...
[Prober] This has been on my mind for years now, and I fear viewing him as G-d, just as much as I fear not viewing him as G-d, lol! I'm a little mixed up when it comes to Jesus...
Love,
My aunt once siad I'd make a great Jew, lol! What is the Jewish view of the man named Jesus, anyway? Do you guys think we should honor, and perhaps follow his lead like the other prophets? Does the Jewish community think he deserve this much respect, or no? Obviously, I know little about what you believe, so...
[Prober] This has been on my mind for years now, and I fear viewing him as G-d, just as much as I fear not viewing him as G-d, lol! I'm a little mixed up when it comes to Jesus...
Love,
I feel the same way. It bothers me to think that we may have borrowed something from someone and distorted or perverted it. I feel really hesitant saying that because of my fundamentalist Christian conditioning.
I don't want to be closed minded and am willing to listen to other opinions, especially that of those who may be closer to the source...
Cage
Spirit Guided
A closed mind is a self created snare which inhibits all growth, imo. I stand firm on one or two issues, but only because I have found them to be be pure, and uncorruptable.
Love,
bananabrain
awkward squadnik
as far as noachide law #3 is concerned, i think my previous post ought to make it clear that it is not considered that christians are in breach of it either in deed or thought. regardless of the fact that we don't think jesus was an incarnation of G!D (such a thing being inconceivable from our PoV) the fact that christians *believe* and, moreover *strongly maintain* that jesus and G!D are One and that, therefore, they are worshipping G!D, would demand that their *intention* be considered as monotheistic. in other words, you guys believe you're worshipping the One G!D and so therefore we are hardly likely to argue with that.
generally, insofar as we can attribute particular teachings to jesus himself, they tend to be unexceptionable, even mainstream from a rabbinic point of view. there are occasional lapses (such as healing or picking corn on Shabbat) but it may be that these themselves have been attributed rather than actually committed.
i believe the phrase is "thou hast said it".
b'shalom
bananabrain
indeed. however, for us to be pointing to the G!D of the patriarchs also requires us to be following the behaviours required of us by G!D's covenantal relationship with the patriarchs, in other words, to keep the covenant. if the purpose of certain followers of jesus was to persuade us that this covenant had been superseded, this might not be idolatrous, but it would certainly be problematic.Dondi said:
generally, insofar as we can attribute particular teachings to jesus himself, they tend to be unexceptionable, even mainstream from a rabbinic point of view. there are occasional lapses (such as healing or picking corn on Shabbat) but it may be that these themselves have been attributed rather than actually committed.
Silas said:
i believe the phrase is "thou hast said it".
b'shalom
bananabrain
Bananabrain! I never thought of that! Yeah, you're absolutely right!
That settles it in my mind!
Many thanks,
Mark
S
Silas
Guest
Jesus not only claimed to be God, but had all of the attributes of God and raised Himself from the grave to prove His claims. Either He is God or He's a liar or a crazy man.
Some believe Him to be who He claimed to be - the Son of God, the Savior, God, Messiah, Lord, etc., etc.
Cage,
There is no Jewish view of Jesus. He's not considered a prophet, or a part of the religion in any way. Individual Jews form opinions about Jesus, but this is much like forming opinions on Muhammad, Buddha, or Napoleon. Some Jews think he was a good person on account that the teaching attributed him helped to bring so many gentiles to God, some think he was a terrible person or a little crazy, some doubt that he existed entirely entirely. But these and others are all personal opinions that are not a matter of religion.
Silas,
This cannot be proven. It is a matter of faith. The same is true for the supernatural claims of all religions.
Or, to add a few more possibilities, it's the people who came after him that changed his story not so much as a matter of lying, but making it fit into their mythos, or, he wasn't crazy but he did have some type of mental illness which, although making him slightly delusional, also gave him greater access to spiritual truths, or, he was really always speaking in metaphor and didn't mean for his words to be taken literally. I think your thinking is a bit too "all or nothing." There are many shades of gray.
Dauer
There is no Jewish view of Jesus. He's not considered a prophet, or a part of the religion in any way. Individual Jews form opinions about Jesus, but this is much like forming opinions on Muhammad, Buddha, or Napoleon. Some Jews think he was a good person on account that the teaching attributed him helped to bring so many gentiles to God, some think he was a terrible person or a little crazy, some doubt that he existed entirely entirely. But these and others are all personal opinions that are not a matter of religion.
Silas,
This cannot be proven. It is a matter of faith. The same is true for the supernatural claims of all religions.
Or, to add a few more possibilities, it's the people who came after him that changed his story not so much as a matter of lying, but making it fit into their mythos, or, he wasn't crazy but he did have some type of mental illness which, although making him slightly delusional, also gave him greater access to spiritual truths, or, he was really always speaking in metaphor and didn't mean for his words to be taken literally. I think your thinking is a bit too "all or nothing." There are many shades of gray.
Dauer
Cage
Spirit Guided
Thanks, dauer...
I guess I wouldn't make a very good Jew after all, lol! I pretty much credit Jesus for what I believe today. I just don't worship him like many others do.
Much Love,
Cage,
There was actually a suggestion in a book I read that Jews who feel thusly, not that Jesus is somehow Divine, but who have been touched or inspired by his teachings, are much like the hasidim of a rebbe. Of course that suggestion itself would probably be received as fairly controversial by most in the Jewish community, even those who are more open to people who've been inspired by the teachings of the teachers of other religions. The feelings are very much because of the relationship the two religions have had for most of their history, all of the persecution and discrimination, as well as the way Christianity formed as a sort of "not that Judaism" and, for a religion that has few and flexible definitions about what a jew does believe, it's pretty universally clear on a few things that a jew doesn't. And it doesn't help that today there are missionary attempts that disguise themselves as Judaism in order to target Jews.
Dauer
There was actually a suggestion in a book I read that Jews who feel thusly, not that Jesus is somehow Divine, but who have been touched or inspired by his teachings, are much like the hasidim of a rebbe. Of course that suggestion itself would probably be received as fairly controversial by most in the Jewish community, even those who are more open to people who've been inspired by the teachings of the teachers of other religions. The feelings are very much because of the relationship the two religions have had for most of their history, all of the persecution and discrimination, as well as the way Christianity formed as a sort of "not that Judaism" and, for a religion that has few and flexible definitions about what a jew does believe, it's pretty universally clear on a few things that a jew doesn't. And it doesn't help that today there are missionary attempts that disguise themselves as Judaism in order to target Jews.
Dauer