Allowing child molesters in church?

[Muslimwoman]

as salaam aleykum

I just saw on the american news that a church in California will decide this weekend whether to allow a convicted child molester to attend their church.

What do you think?

How would you feel having your children in the same church?

What about forgiveness?

Are there some sins we as humans cannot forgive?

Can people really change?

Salaam

 

[Snoopy]

If a religious path is only to be trodden by the perfect, it will soon be overrun by weeds.

What would be the point of such a path?

s.

 

[Postmaster]

What would be the point in opening a path for the imperfect if they refuse to walk down it?

 

[Snoopy]

that's another matter...

 

[Postmaster]

Forget forgiving child molesters, there’s no path available to people like that. It's obvious that anyone who brings themselves to doing something like that has rejected any virtues path. Maybe eventually excusable by God if the person was raised by a really dysfunctional family and a twisted childhood but how do you excuse when a priest does it?

 

[Snoopy]

Paedophilia is a terrible thing irrespective of the "day job" of the person. I'm not going to start Catholic-bashing but the number of cases recently reported in Ireland alone is alarming. The causes of that might be rather complex and I wouldn't claim to be any sort of expert on it.

s.

 

[Francis king]

I have to agree with postmaster ere, and think that some ppl are simply beyond redemption and they should toddle off and top themselves...

of course, there are degrees of severity: a teenage boy with learning difficulties who gets frisky once with his own sister is not on the same level as those ppl who have deliberately sought positions of authority within communities so they can groom children and abuse them. Priests are supposed to be above suspicion, yet time and time again we hear of these cases of paedophile priests who are discovered by the church and simply moved to another parish, but lets not forget, it is not just the priesthood, paedo's are everywhere, and it's about time they brought this issue to public vote, as I think that if the ppl could vote on this issue then they would bring bk hanging for serial sex offenders, especially those with a penchance for young kids... u can't cure them, it's too costly to monitor them effectively, so, what next? bring bk hanging I say...

 

[Snoopy]

Sister Francis....

 

[Muslimwoman]

Goodness Francis, what a strong view but a great read.

A documentary in UK once talked to some of these men and they themselves were actually begging not to be let out of prison because it is an urge they cannot control. I am in 2 minds about the issue, there is the issue of accepting mental illness (ok some just do it coz they are real perv's but some are truly ill) and then there is the safety of our children (sorry but nothing tops that for me).

Perhaps the answer is state execution Francis, as this relieves their soul of the sin of suicide and it keeps the children safe.

As for the priests, it is about time some organisation took the church to the Court of Human Rights - what they do is totally unacceptable.

So now I have another question....if so many of these 'priests' are perverts is it something about the church that attracts them or does the way of life of a priest create the problem?

Also are there any cultures you know of without child molesters? If not, why not - what drives this? It is very rare to hear of women doing this (although not unknown), so what makes a person want to 'have their way' with a small child. I mean YUK you read stories of rings of these people sticking their wotnots in tiny babies - wow very sexy (sorry I need to go and puke now).

Salaam

 

[Snoopy]

Also are there any cultures you know of without child molesters? If not, why not - what drives this?

I don't think this is a cultural thing; as you say yourself you have called it a mental illness.

s.

 

[Faithfulservant]

I cannot limit the act of Jesus Christ by saying that a person is a hopeless case for redemption.

Christ died for child molesters. His mercy and grace extends to ALL that come to Him.

I am a testement to the complete change in me and my whole life.. ALL things are possible through Jesus Christ!

We are Justified ( Just as if we never sinned)

Romans 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

Sanctified (made new and set apart)

Hebrews 10:10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

This is the good news.. Our wretched carnal man is laid to rest and we born in the Spirit of God.

 

[Faithfulservant]

Another thing...

The church which is the body of Christ is NOT a building it is the body of believers in the Lord Jesus Christ...

 

[Postmaster]

In Greek history we still have a dance that we still dance to today, it used to be danced to just before girls and mothers would jump off cliffs before they could be raped by an invading army. I think this shows how distraughting this crime is.

 

[Muslimwoman]

Another thing...

The church which is the body of Christ is NOT a building it is the body of believers in the Lord Jesus Christ...

So what is your view, should these people be forgiven and allowed into a church congregation? Would you feel safe with them around your children or small children you know?

 

[Muslimwoman]

In Greek history we still have a dance that we still dance to today, it used to be danced to just before girls and mothers would jump off cliffs before they could be raped by an invading army. I think this shows how distraughting this crime is.

Goodness, imaging the choice between jumping to your death or raped to death....I would jump!!! These women should be admired for their courage and I pray G-d will give them a peaceful life in heaven.

Oh dear, now that gives me another question...if these women jumped then they committed suicide which is a sin, so will G-d forgive them because of the circumstances? Now then, I don't know the answer from a Muslim standpoint so I shall endeavour to find out.

 

[lunamoth]

So what is your view, should these people be forgiven and allowed into a church congregation? Would you feel safe with them around your children or small children you know?

I think you are confusing forgiveness and trust. Christians are called to forgive, although I must say I don't know how easy or even possible it would be for me to forgive someone who molested my child, or myself if I had been molested as a child. But when with God's help we are able to forgive we hand over the anger and our cravings for vengence. Forgiveness is in a way letting God help us with these burdens.

As for trust, that must be earned. This person may or may not be trustworthy around children. I know I would not want to take any chances with my children around him, and I also wonder how newcomers to the church might be warned...seems like it is taking on quite a responsibility. If this congregation chooses to do it I applaud them because that is what community is for...to support each other as we all struggle with our sins, our addictions, our burdens, in this life. Personally I think the convicted peadophile should be kept away from children...a small church group of adults only for support seems like a better solution, but then, I'm not there. It's the sinners who need the Doctor, and the church is the hospital. Likewise this person needs help and monitoring from professional counselors etc..

A final note, if you are part of a largish church you probably have multiple sex offenders in your congregation...you just don't know who they are.

 

[Muslimwoman]

I think you are confusing forgiveness and trust.

A final note, if you are part of a largish church you probably have multiple sex offenders in your congregation...you just don't know who they are.

Hi Lunamoth

I see forgiveness and trust differently but in a situation like this, to me, they are linked. I could never trust this person with a child but to forgive him I must at least trust his desire to repent and not commit the same sin again.

In the UK the police always say they do not have the resources to monitor these people (I believe the same problem comes up in other countries?). So in effect they are simply released back onto the streets and can disappear. It is the age old problem for parents, what do we have to do to keep our children safe, lock the children up as though they are in prison? Or allow them out to play in the neighbourhood and keep our fingers crossed? It's a nightmare.

Salaam

 

[lunamoth]

Hi Lunamoth

I see forgiveness and trust differently but in a situation like this, to me, they are linked. I could never trust this person with a child but to forgive him I must at least trust his desire to repent and not commit the same sin again.

In the UK the police always say they do not have the resources to monitor these people (I believe the same problem comes up in other countries?). So in effect they are simply released back onto the streets and can disappear. It is the age old problem for parents, what do we have to do to keep our children safe, lock the children up as though they are in prison? Or allow them out to play in the neighbourhood and keep our fingers crossed? It's a nightmare.

Salaam

Forgiveness is not like that. Forgiveness, as I said above, is as much for the forgiver as for the forgiven. The forgiver can choose to forgive, to hand the 'fall-out' from the transgression over to God. It's up to that person. They may wish for a person to repent or somehow else make ammends, or perhaps they may not. The Amish community that forgave the person who killed their children are a good example of this. The community is not in a position to forgive unless they are the community that was directly hurt by this person's actions. The community is however in a position to decide whether to trust the perptrator or not. They do not have to automatically do this, and I agree there is good reason not to.

Another thing your post above brings to mind is that you seem to be encouraging us to give in to fear. Fear is not a good way to live, and Jesus said many times, "Do not fear, I am with you." This does not mean we are to naively trust someone with our children, that we should not hold them accountable for their actions, because we should. Yes, we need to be careful with our children, be watchful, take percautions, many of which stem naturally out of a healthy community (and I agree that many communities in our modern world are far from healthy).

Whether it is a good decision or not I dont' know, but this church seems to be taking steps to heal their community. You say the police can't do it...perhaps this church agrees and thinks it is better to have such a person surrounded by people who know him and his past actions, his potential for more criminal behavior. They seem to be doing something about the very problem you identify, and they are not giving in to their fear. Yes, it will take more work and courage on their part but really, what they are doing is a very loving, courageous and a true Christian response to the brokenness of this fallen world.

 

[Muslimwoman]

you seem to be encouraging us to give in to fear.

Why do you think I am doing that? I am not trying to encourage anyone to do or think anything. This is what I posted earlier on this thread:

Perhaps the answer is state execution Francis, as this relieves their soul of the sin of suicide and it keeps the children safe.

I believe it is every childs right to be safe, no matter about their skin colour, cultural background, religion, etc., if that means governments have to take drastic action then so be it. However, I am also mindful that the person that committed the crime is also a human being and must answer to G-d for what they have done.

As for the priests, it is about time some organisation took the church to the Court of Human Rights - what they do is totally unacceptable.

I find it unacceptable that the church continues to brush this under the carpet and simply move these priests to another area. They should be accountable for their actions and the church must be held accountable for their duplicity.

I did comment on the difficulties that every parent faces, do you wrap your kids in cotton wool or allow them freedom and just pray no harm comes to them? That is not giving in to fear, that is simple reality and a judgement call every parent in the world has to face. Of course, most parents choose middle ground, a degree of freedom within limits parents feel are safe.

I don't know how I would react if this was happening at my local mosque. I posted this thread to ask people their views, if they can forgive, why, for themselves or the criminal, if they can't where does that leave the criminal, an outcast to society which usually causes more harm in the long run.

 

[Postmaster]

That’s true it's quite difficult to judge if what they did was a morally right choice, committing suicide is against religion. I read an article in the New scientist magazine recently that female ducks have evolved so that they are able to resist male ducks from forceful entry. I think it’s very important that females choose who is going to be next generation of human the race, God help us if it was the other way round. I would say they jumped in quite justified honour.