Every Quality has Opposite Poles

[Bruce Michael]

Hi All,

It is a difficult concept to apprehend.

"Everything in them [the animals] which is of the nature of Kama [desire] man also could have within himself ; but he unloaded it into them, for he was unable to use this kind of Kama."

"Every quality has opposite poles."

Just as there is light and dark, warmth and cold, positive and negative electricity, so too each desire quality has two different aspects.

"For instance man cast rage out of himself into the lion, and this, on the other hand, when ennobled by him, can lead upward to his higher self."

The opposite quality is not mentioned in the text, but this might be say, forgiveness or kindness.

"Thus the kingdom of the warm-blooded animals is comprehensive picture of Kama qualities."

"Man has ejected from himself the cunning of the fox and retained its opposite pole. In the fox's cunning however, the germ of something else is beginning to develop, for example something similar to the way in which the black shadow of an object has a secondary shadow when light enters it from outside. We incorporated cunning into the fox out of our inner being. Now spirit is directed towards him from the periphery. The beings which in this
way work from the periphery into what is kamic are elemental beings. What the fox has received from us, is in him animal; what attaches itself to him from the spirit, is elemental being. On the one hand he originated through the spirit of humanity and on the other through an Elemental Being."

All quotes from Rudolf Steiner Foundations of Esotericism.

More on our two-poled Cosmos:

"In a fixed Cosmos there would be no activity. In a non-fixed Cosmos there would be Chaos in activity. In a two-poled Cosmos there is a happy mix of reality and possibility. We have been empowered to dwell in the fixed conditions and effect constant change upon them. The latter determines the former, whilst the former follows the latter.


Some circumstances are simply beyond personal adjustment. Our capabilities may not extend beyond the boundaries so set; and here we call upon Divine intervention in balancing our needs: We pray.


The physical constitution works in this way. One pole receives fixed matter - we must assimilate, adjust and balance such matter, and discharge the rest. We breathe in and breathe out. That which we breathe in is fixed,
that which we breathe out is adjusted. If we breath in water, and have not gills for the required adjusting and cannot balance those needs, we die.
That is reality."

And:



It is paramount to expression that this be so. It is not as simple to say that what is good in one instance is bad in another or vice versa - it is not a question of philosophy, but rather a law in which all light has its shadow. "

These are the virtue/vice pairs I have often spoken about here.

Cordially,
Bruce

 

[bgruagach]

Duality or polarism is an interesting way of classifying things, but in the end it's just another human-devised attempt to understand.

There are many ways people classify things. Some use the Sephiroth of the Tree of Life, some use Astrology, some use dual systems such as yin-yang.

Edited to add: there is always a danger in mistaking the map for the landscape itself.

 

[Impqueen]

there is always a danger in mistaking the map for the landscape itself.

This is why I tend to reject polarities (in my personal belief). Many of the ones often quoted aren't really polarities anyway;

Hot/cold - these are relative. If I'm at the North Pole then 1degreeC is hot. If I'm on the surface of the sun then 100degreesC is cold.

Male/female - only necessary for sexual reproduction. Stones etc are neither and some living things are always neither, go through phases of being neither, or are both.

Light/dark - presence or absence of electromagnetic radiation which happens to fall in the range visible by our eyes.

And I can go on for ages about good/evil but I won't .

Anyway, that's my perspective on polarities, I recognise they are useful concepts for some but I think too many do 'mistake the map for the landscape'.

 

[Impqueen]

(I tried to post on this thread, it didn't seem to work, it was suggested I try to 'bump' it by posting again - please ignore this post!)

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

This is why I tend to reject polarities (in my personal belief). Many of the ones often quoted aren't really polarities anyway;

Hot/cold - these are relative. If I'm at the North Pole then 1degreeC is hot. If I'm on the surface of the sun then 100degreesC is cold.

Male/female - only necessary for sexual reproduction. Stones etc are neither and some living things are always neither, go through phases of being neither, or are both.

Light/dark - presence or absence of electromagnetic radiation which happens to fall in the range visible by our eyes.

And I can go on for ages about good/evil but I won't .

Anyway, that's my perspective on polarities, I recognise they are useful concepts for some but I think too many do 'mistake the map for the landscape'.

Hi!

This is actually really good stuff! I think it's very good to see through the politics of polarization. There is, though, an essential tension to life which is created by the opposition of forces. Without that there could be no balance, and really no physical life. But beyond that there is a cooperative juxtaposition of forces which ensures that there is equity between what is gained and what is lost. For example: in every situation there is something to be learned and something to be shared. Give and take- that's the way things work best.

Chris

 

[Bruce Michael]

Dear Impqueen,
Does the word 'quality' mean anything to you?

If I said someone was a 'warm' person- would you know what I mean?
If I said they had all the warmth of an electric heater, would that be an insult?

Could you say that because your fireplace wasn't as hot as the surface of the Sun then it must be cold? Of course its relative to your body temperature- that's where it starts. That is why the Fahrenheit system was so effective.

Polarity is not the map it is the landscape. It is there is nature, in electricity and in magnetism. We have a polarity in our weather systems with high pressure and low pressure systems- one bleeds over into the other. You could say the pressures are relative but the fact that they are high and low brings about a dynamism.

>Hot/cold - these are relative. If I'm at the North Pole then 1degreeC is >hot.

The North Pole (called Pole for a reason) is magnetically opposite of the South. There is a polarity between the Poles and the Equator as to heat and cold. You see polarity is linear. The relativity occurs as you move up and down the line.


>Light/dark - presence or absence of electromagnetic radiation which >happens to fall in the range visible by our eyes.

Is light a particle or a wave?- There is a lot of argument over that one.
Light and dark exist in the higher worlds.

>And I can go on for ages about good/evil but I won't .

You're welcome. Human beings know the difference between kindness and unkindness.

Greetings,
Br.Bruce

 

[JosephM]

Dear Impqueen,
Does the word 'quality' mean anything to you?

If I said someone was a 'warm' person- would you know what I mean?
If I said they had all the warmth of an electric heater, would that be an insult?

Perhaps you miss the point Bruce? Opposites only exist in your mind. The demarcation line is the not the same for everybody. Using the terms you have above does not guarantee accurate communications. Heat exists.. Cold does not. Temperature is expressed in relative degrees of heat not cold. It is a continuum, no part of which can be distinguished from neighboring parts except by arbitrary division.

The North Pole (called Pole for a reason) is magnetically opposite of the South. There is a polarity between the Poles and the Equator as to heat and cold. You see polarity is linear. The relativity occurs as you move up and down the line.

A Pole is an extremity to our mind but does an opposite really have existence or is it just a fabrication along a continuum defined relatively by the mind? In my view of the mind only.

Is light a particle or a wave?- There is a lot of argument over that one.
Light and dark exist in the higher worlds.

Light exists, dark is just a relative subjective definition. Dark doesn't exist in reality except as a function of mind. There is only Light expressed in luminous degrees.

You're welcome. Human beings know the difference between kindness and unkindness.

Greetings,
Br.Bruce

Do they really? Agreement depends much on the segmant of society and whims of mankind at any particular moment in time and is subject to change. Many thought it was in the best interest and kind to make slaves of primitive people at one time. I'm sure some people think it kind to kill to put people out of their perceived miseries etc.. Depends whose perspective you are looking from. Things are not 'Black' and 'White' as they appear.

Love and Peace,
JM

 

[Impqueen]

There is polarity in electricity and magnetism, yes, but it doesn't follow that there is polarity in everything.

Of course I'm not saying that words like 'hot' and 'cold' don't mean anything, of course they do. But they have meaning subjectively not objectively. Forces really work in a complex dance which creates the outcomes we see - middle school level physics tells us that every action has a reaction, but in order to see that purely we would have to put the object being acted upon in a vacuum far away from any object with a gravitational pull (i.e somewhere that doesn't really exist). Polarities and middle school physics are useful for telling us about the world but they aren't the world.

I don't think there is any argument about whether light is a particle or a wave... it's both.

If you were in a room with no visible light, that was really warm, you would still be in the dark. If you happened to be a snake though, you'd be blinded by the glare.

 

[Bruce Michael]

Perhaps you miss the point Bruce? Opposites only exist in your mind. The demarcation line is the not the same for everybody. Using the terms you have above does not guarantee accurate communications. Heat exists.. Cold does not. Temperature is expressed in relative degrees of heat not cold. It is a continuum, no part of which can be distinguished from neighboring parts except by arbitrary division.



A Pole is an extremity to our mind but does an opposite really have existence or is it just a fabrication along a continuum defined relatively by the mind? In my view of the mind only.




Light exists, dark is just a relative subjective definition. Dark doesn't exist in reality except as a function of mind. There is only Light expressed in luminous degrees.



Do they really? Agreement depends much on the segmant of society and whims of mankind at any particular moment in time and is subject to change. Many thought it was in the best interest and kind to make slaves of primitive people at one time. I'm sure some people think it kind to kill to put people out of their perceived miseries etc.. Depends whose perspective you are looking from. Things are not 'Black' and 'White' as they appear.

Love and Peace,
JM

Hi Br. Joseph,

Yes we know the taste of the "milk of human kindness". It is held in attitude.

The extreme arguments you put forward are explained in the Four Ways to Truth- suffice to say, you can make any virtue look like a vice.

Let me make it clearer- those on the receiving end knew the difference.

Now getting back to cognition and the question of whether we can we truly know anything at all. Can our "I" be at one with the object of our knowledge.

This is of course a question that has been nutted out by philosophers- particularly in the nineteenth century.

I, of course believe we can take the path of knowledge:
Philosophy of Spiritual Activity
THE WORLD AS PERCEPT

PoSA (Poppelbaum): Chapter IV

As to the question of heat and cold and whether it is subjective knowledge, I recommend these 14 lectures:
Warmth Course, The Theory of Heat

Second Scientific Lecture-Course: Warmth Course

Best Regards,
Br.Bruce

 

[Impqueen]

Heat can be measured objectively, but cold cannot. 'Hot' still only has subjective meaning really because we can say 'this oven is at 180degreesC', but when we say that 'this oven is hot' we have to ask, relative to what? Relative to the rest or the kitchen, or my body temperature, it's hot. But as my pizza needs the oven to be at 220degreesC to be cooked correctly, it's cold.

Although the Popplebaum link looks interesting (don't have the time to read it thoroughly now I'm afraid) I fail to see what it has to do with the argument. I'm probably just being dumb though .

Now getting back to cognition and the question of whether we can we truly know anything at all. Can our "I" be at one with the object of our knowledge.

I have to admit, I wasn't aware this was the question.
Your link to the Gunas is interesting because it shows these concepts don't have to come in opposing pairs.

 

[Bruce Michael]

Heat can be measured objectively, but cold cannot. 'Hot' still only has subjective meaning really because we can say 'this oven is at 180degreesC', but when we say that 'this oven is hot' we have to ask, relative to what? Relative to the rest or the kitchen, or my body temperature, it's hot. But as my pizza needs the oven to be at 220degreesC to be cooked correctly, it's cold.

Although the Popplebaum link looks interesting (don't have the time to read it thoroughly now I'm afraid) I fail to see what it has to do with the argument. I'm probably just being dumb though .

I have to admit, I wasn't aware this was the question.
Your link to the Gunas is interesting because it shows these concepts don't have to come in opposing pairs.

Shalom Impqueen,
Well you can get into semantics-
as Vince Noir would say "it's all about the context". Does the thermometer in your freezer measure cold or heat?- what about the oven does it measure lack of cold?

Those questions are answered on the link I posted to the Warmth course.

You might be wondering why I'm sticking with this. It's because light and dark, heat and cold translate into non-physical worlds: etheric, astral and higher.

God Bless,
Br.Bruce

 

[bgruagach]

Shalom Impqueen,
Well you can get into semantics-
as Vince Noir would say "it's all about the context". Does the thermometer in your freezer measure cold or heat?- what about the oven does it measure lack of cold?

Those questions are answered on the link I posted to the Warmth course.

You might be wondering why I'm sticking with this. It's because light and dark, heat and cold translate into non-physical worlds: etheric, astral and higher.

God Bless,
Br.Bruce

Actually, what Impqueen has pointed out is that heat and light are both scientific qualities which can be measured. Cold and dark, on the other hand, are semantic and only exist in relation to the scientific qualities of heat and light.

Good and evil on the other hand are not scientifically measurable and are both "merely" semantic differences.

There is always danger when we try to explain spiritual ideas using scientific terminology. The danger is that we trivialize the spiritual and misrepresent the scientific. It's wiser to use spiritual terms to describe spiritual ideas, and leave scientific terms for discussions of actual science.

 

[JosephM]

Shalom Impqueen,
Well you can get into semantics-
as Vince Noir would say "it's all about the context". Does the thermometer in your freezer measure cold or heat?- what about the oven does it measure lack of cold?

Those questions are answered on the link I posted to the Warmth course.

You might be wondering why I'm sticking with this. It's because light and dark, heat and cold translate into non-physical worlds: etheric, astral and higher.

God Bless,
Br.Bruce

Actually Br Bruce, it is not just semantics. In my view, what is being described to you is a very important concept of the mind that until it is undone spiritual progression can be severely limited. From a certain perspective of non-duality that cannot be explained in a few words, opposites simply do not exist. Words such as hot/cold, beautiful/ugly, light/dark, good/evil are for convenience only and are demarcation lines that has almost as many realities as there are humans so to speak. To understand this frees the mind to see things more as they really are rather than as the mind defines them with its colored and tainted subjective experience.

Perhaps, I and MAYBE others are failing to understand what you are looking for with your original post from a religious/spiritual perspective. But I assure you we are talking about 'context' and it seems to ME that you are stuck in 'content'. I say that as my personal opinion with no offence meant since obviously I have failed to communicate to your understanding.

Love and Peace,
JM

 

[Impqueen]

Bgruagach and JosephM have said it better than I could.

 

[Snoopy]

“When beauty is recognised as beauty, ugliness is created.
When good is recognised as good, bad is created.

Front and back arise from each other.
Difficult and easy determine each other.
High and low define each other.
Long and short measure each other.
Sound and silence echo each other.
Being and non-being are each other.”

Tao Te Ching (translated by Ray Grigg).​

s.

 

[JosephM]

Thanks Snoopy,

Very short and profound quote.

JM

 

[soma]

There are opposites each is necessary and a vital force for all the possibilities of the macrocosm to become actualized. In the absence of these opposites, the positive and negative, the universe could not hold together and would cease to exist. To go beyond these polarities is to realize Christ consciousness. Pure Consciousness rises above the disconnected, the dissociated and becomes unified with the whole.

http://thinkunity.com

 

[wil]

All the polar opposite examples are interesting...and regarding the light/heat/good, dark/cold/evil discussion these are cases where the negative is simply lack...lack of light, lack of heat, lack of good...

Not quite the same as the poles with N and S....and magnetics...but interestingly enough we get to live in the time while they are working on switching so they are moving more rapidly the strengths are not as certain around our globe...and there exists large areas where if it wasn't for the stars, a clock, sextants or GPS our ships would not know where they were as compasses will not give accurate directions...

Love...what is its polar opposite...is it hate or fear....or does love as an attribute have an issue with itself..does it fall into the lack category...can love be utilized negatively in the extreme? I think it can.

How about forgiveness, knowledge, will, zeal, strength, faith...all wonderful attributes...but they all require balance...inside each and everyone of them are 'opposite poles from 100% to lack' where if utilized to their extreme, they become an issue and if under utilized they are an issue...

Like salt or sugar in cooking a balance must be achieved. But they are not opposites.

 

[Bruce Michael]

Hi Br. Wil,

>Love...what is its polar opposite...is it hate or fear....

Yes there is a theosophical understanding that fear is the opposite of Love.

That's a funny thing about opposites: they tend to cancel each other out. High pressure will release into Low pressure, heat to cold etc.

>Like salt or sugar in cooking a balance must be achieved. But they are >not opposites.

I guess I would say bitter is the opposite of sweet.
True opposites in cooking are your alkalis and acids- and of course when you put them together they react and become inert salts. Again we see the dynamic relationship which enables us to create a light tasty sponge cake.

>How about forgiveness, knowledge, will, zeal, strength, faith...all >wonderful attributes...but they all require balance...inside each and >everyone of them are 'opposite poles from 100% to lack' where if utilized >to their extreme, they become an issue and if under utilized they are an >issue...

All virtues work together in harmony.

Let's have unity not uniformity,
Br.Bruce

 

[Bruce Michael]

Hello Br. JosephM


>In my view, what is being described to you is a very important concept of >the mind that until it is undone spiritual progression can be severely limited.

It only prevents progression along the path that you might be advocating.
As for me, on the Christian Rosicrucian, or Christian Esoteric path, it is a very useful tool for understanding. And certainly the great teachers that I admire have gone to great heights in their ongoing development, and subsequently have given practical gifts to the world.

In to discerning whether good and evil exist you need to define them. Indulging in abstractions will not lead to any "good" result.

If you say you don’t believe in something, you need to define what it is you don’t believe in.
“I don’t believe in cats and dogs. There are no cats and dogs, just animals.”
In reality, those who say they live outside laws, don’t. They still have to abide by the laws of physics etc. They can’t lift themselves up by their own pigtails.

You will have no argument whether there is a brick wall in front of you when you try to walk through it. There is the duality of the empty space and the wall. That is reality.

We all understand human laws, such as driving our car down the right or left side of the road- depending on what country we are in. We know the consequences of not doing that.

And so those who advocate a world without duality, a kind of 'blancmange' of circumstance, do not really live their day to day lives like that. They are indulging in an abstraction.

In science there is cause and effect. In karma there is cause and effect- however long that effect takes to affect. In the topsy turvy astral world effect precedes cause.

In ancient India there was a concept of non-duality, so called. In ancient Persia, Man came to understand the nature of duality as taught by the great Zarathustra. Our Greek thinkers spoke of the Good, True & Beautiful as being qualities of God.

We can come to an understanding of Monist, Dualist and Trinitarian ideas without resorting to a dogmatic approach which states that there is "no such thing as one or the other...".

There really is such a thing as Goodness. It is understood by all.

In this age of the Consciousness Soul or Arterial Self, we will be able to establish our own “moral imaginations” as to what actions are right or wrong. Of course we must be aware of our own gross egotism, which always tends to cloud things.

Blessings,
Br.Bruce