E
Eclectic Mystic
Guest
Re: God is the permanently unknowable region even for the intelligence enriched with
Dude.
Come. On.
No, seriously.
Come. On.
Dude.
Come. On.
No, seriously.
Come. On.
God is the permanently unknowable region even for the intelligence enriched with scie
flowperson
Oannes
Re: God is the permanently unknowable region even for the intelligence enriched with
Hello All...Well, I was looking around for an alternative to starting a new thread for this subject, so I thought it might be appropriate to re-cycle and re-use one of our friend Dattaswami's threads to save the trouble of beginning a new one. Besides mystic's cogent comment in response to a non-existent (now) cut and paste extravaganza seems appropriate to this beginning, and perhaps some of the comments that my beginnings might elicit from somehere. I'm looking for a few insights into what love really is aside from sexual relations with the opposite (or like) of our species
The premise of what I'm after in this discussion (if indeed one takes place) is to determine whether the phenomenon of having and keeping pets is a significant piece of evidence that we may point to in order to describe part of what the presence of G-d is about in our lives. I am convinced, through the studies that I have done, that dogs and cats were domesticated about 20,000 years ago to solve several problems that likely plagued ancient peoples.
First, pets help to solve problems of loneliness. Second, through living with them and helping to provide sustenance for them we are able to exercise our abilities to share our lives in an altruistic fashion (they help us to exercise our hard wired love muscles). Third, pets, with some training, are able to cheerfully assist people with the day to day drudgeries that we must endure in life (closely related to the loneliness thingy). Fourth, in the absence and unpredictability of human relationships, they provide continuities of loyalty for us to rely upon when friendly humans aren't about. Fifth, pets help us to be who we all really are (depending upon their degree of sentience) and thereby provide us with non-judgemental loyalty and love when that may not available from people. And finally, they (in more ancient times) prepared us to accept other peoples, very different from ourselves whenever, they came to sit around the campfire with us.
There are other criteria, and I would encourage anyone to add to my list if you think of any. As a sidelight, my current thoughts are running along the lines of re-incarnation. If we bond with and love pets, are we really assisting a real soul to develop healthier living patterns in a human life perhaps as yet to be manifested ? Then there is the relatively new phenomenon of people bonding with mechanical and technological creations such as computers, autos, robot vacuums etc. ...even to the extent of naming them, decorating them to give them an individual look, and having certain expectations about them in relation to the ways in which we choose to live.
Here's a couple of interesting items to get the ball rolling. I hope that you're as interested in this subject as I am. And by the way...if someone wants to start a "Pets I have known and loved" thread as a companion to this, I think that would be great.
flow....
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/02/science/02angier.html?ref=science
Study Finds Human-Robot Attachment - EarthLink - Technology News
Hello All...Well, I was looking around for an alternative to starting a new thread for this subject, so I thought it might be appropriate to re-cycle and re-use one of our friend Dattaswami's threads to save the trouble of beginning a new one. Besides mystic's cogent comment in response to a non-existent (now) cut and paste extravaganza seems appropriate to this beginning, and perhaps some of the comments that my beginnings might elicit from somehere. I'm looking for a few insights into what love really is aside from sexual relations with the opposite (or like) of our species
The premise of what I'm after in this discussion (if indeed one takes place) is to determine whether the phenomenon of having and keeping pets is a significant piece of evidence that we may point to in order to describe part of what the presence of G-d is about in our lives. I am convinced, through the studies that I have done, that dogs and cats were domesticated about 20,000 years ago to solve several problems that likely plagued ancient peoples.
First, pets help to solve problems of loneliness. Second, through living with them and helping to provide sustenance for them we are able to exercise our abilities to share our lives in an altruistic fashion (they help us to exercise our hard wired love muscles). Third, pets, with some training, are able to cheerfully assist people with the day to day drudgeries that we must endure in life (closely related to the loneliness thingy). Fourth, in the absence and unpredictability of human relationships, they provide continuities of loyalty for us to rely upon when friendly humans aren't about. Fifth, pets help us to be who we all really are (depending upon their degree of sentience) and thereby provide us with non-judgemental loyalty and love when that may not available from people. And finally, they (in more ancient times) prepared us to accept other peoples, very different from ourselves whenever, they came to sit around the campfire with us.
There are other criteria, and I would encourage anyone to add to my list if you think of any. As a sidelight, my current thoughts are running along the lines of re-incarnation. If we bond with and love pets, are we really assisting a real soul to develop healthier living patterns in a human life perhaps as yet to be manifested ? Then there is the relatively new phenomenon of people bonding with mechanical and technological creations such as computers, autos, robot vacuums etc. ...even to the extent of naming them, decorating them to give them an individual look, and having certain expectations about them in relation to the ways in which we choose to live.
Here's a couple of interesting items to get the ball rolling. I hope that you're as interested in this subject as I am. And by the way...if someone wants to start a "Pets I have known and loved" thread as a companion to this, I think that would be great.
flow....
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/02/science/02angier.html?ref=science
Study Finds Human-Robot Attachment - EarthLink - Technology News
Snoopy
Unknown Member
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Re: God is the permanently unknowable region even for the intelligence enriched with
Sorry flow, I'm still entranced by the title and the OP.
If I get over it, I may attempt to contribute! I mean, come on. Dude. Really. hee hee. No, really. Come. On. On. Come, Dude, Come, Really, Dude, Dude Really.
Cats.
s.
Sorry flow, I'm still entranced by the title and the OP.
If I get over it, I may attempt to contribute! I mean, come on. Dude. Really. hee hee. No, really. Come. On. On. Come, Dude, Come, Really, Dude, Dude Really.
Cats.
s.
E
Eclectic Mystic
Guest
Re: God is the permanently unknowable region even for the intelligence enriched with
Great, now people are going to think I started this thread about how "God is the petrwhs sfasdkfj yada yada yada............................"
Great, now people are going to think I started this thread about how "God is the petrwhs sfasdkfj yada yada yada............................"
Last edited by a moderator:
E
Eclectic Mystic
Guest
Re: God is the permanently unknowable region even for the intelligence enriched with
Good topic btw, Flow. I think bonding with pets is certainly different that bonding with things like computers and I'd also say that they are assisting our souls as much as we are theirs.
Good topic btw, Flow. I think bonding with pets is certainly different that bonding with things like computers and I'd also say that they are assisting our souls as much as we are theirs.
flowperson
Oannes
Re: God is the permanently unknowable region even for the intelligence enriched with
Thanks EM. One of my life themes has always been to try and make lemonade out of lemons.
And Snoopy...once you become un-entranced, read the foollowing link and proffer your sage opinion (yours is welcome also EM) regarding whether this is an appropriate direction for us to turn. I find the idea rather chilling in its implications.
flow....
http://my.earthlink.net/track?id=10...0071004/47046540_3ca6_15526200710041642410518
Thanks EM. One of my life themes has always been to try and make lemonade out of lemons.
And Snoopy...once you become un-entranced, read the foollowing link and proffer your sage opinion (yours is welcome also EM) regarding whether this is an appropriate direction for us to turn. I find the idea rather chilling in its implications.
flow....
http://my.earthlink.net/track?id=10...0071004/47046540_3ca6_15526200710041642410518
E
Eclectic Mystic
Guest
Re: God is the permanently unknowable region even for the intelligence enriched with
I doubt they're "robot robots." I think they're just "robots." You know.
I doubt they're "robot robots." I think they're just "robots." You know.
Muslimwoman
Coexistence insha'Allah
Re: God is the permanently unknowable region even for the intelligence enriched with
Erm what has that got to do with pets? Robots? Between the wierd title and the unrelated link - is this thread some sort of logic problem? If so I fail to see the logic in it.
Re the pets. I think we domesticated them originally for purely practical reasons (cats keep the mice out of the cave/hut/house and dogs keep the other tribe off your belongings & the big cats at bay) but over time develped an emotional attachment to them. To you or I a cat or dog is a soul to be nurtured - for the Chinese they are a good dinner. For us (well you non veggies) a cow is a good dinner and to some religions it is sacred.
I think it just depends what you are exposed to. My hubby's family were so poor that the very idea of paying to feed an animal with no purpose was sheer insanity - he is now a confirmed cat lover and is taking great care of our Mish in my absence (he even refers to him as family now). It is just exposure to different lifestyles.
So where does that put them in the great scheme of things? Well doctors know that spending time with an animal is very good for us. This would suggest to me that they have a higher purpose than just being food (although you are talking to a woman whose parents taught her to make spider ladders so they can get out of the bathtub, so I may be a bit biased).
I believe every creature has a soul and we humans are meant to be their protectors - oops failed again then. I cannot see that an animals soul would be judged as ours will - does a shark commit a bad deed if it eats a cute baby seal, one would assume not. Does a cat or dog that is a good companion get credited with good deeds by just being themselves, I doubt it. I think hey have a different purpose - no idea what but I know G-d has a plan for every being.
Well that added nothing to the discussion but I needed a good ramble.
Salaam
MW
Erm what has that got to do with pets? Robots? Between the wierd title and the unrelated link - is this thread some sort of logic problem? If so I fail to see the logic in it.
Re the pets. I think we domesticated them originally for purely practical reasons (cats keep the mice out of the cave/hut/house and dogs keep the other tribe off your belongings & the big cats at bay) but over time develped an emotional attachment to them. To you or I a cat or dog is a soul to be nurtured - for the Chinese they are a good dinner. For us (well you non veggies) a cow is a good dinner and to some religions it is sacred.
I think it just depends what you are exposed to. My hubby's family were so poor that the very idea of paying to feed an animal with no purpose was sheer insanity - he is now a confirmed cat lover and is taking great care of our Mish in my absence (he even refers to him as family now
). It is just exposure to different lifestyles.So where does that put them in the great scheme of things? Well doctors know that spending time with an animal is very good for us. This would suggest to me that they have a higher purpose than just being food (although you are talking to a woman whose parents taught her to make spider ladders so they can get out of the bathtub, so I may be a bit biased).
I believe every creature has a soul and we humans are meant to be their protectors - oops failed again then. I cannot see that an animals soul would be judged as ours will - does a shark commit a bad deed if it eats a cute baby seal, one would assume not. Does a cat or dog that is a good companion get credited with good deeds by just being themselves, I doubt it. I think hey have a different purpose - no idea what but I know G-d has a plan for every being.
Well that added nothing to the discussion but I needed a good ramble.
Salaam
MW
Muslimwoman
Coexistence insha'Allah
Re: God is the permanently unknowable region even for the intelligence enriched with
Hi EM
Is that like 'I don't think it is cheesecake cheesecake I think it's just cheescake'?????
Salaam
Hi EM
Is that like 'I don't think it is cheesecake cheesecake I think it's just cheescake'?????
Salaam
flowperson
Oannes
Re: God is the permanently unknowable region even for the intelligence enriched with
Speaking of "cheesecake" and "robots" let's tune into the private and most intimate thoughts of a comely 60 year old single American man:
" Hmmmm....let's see, if I use these blue pills, I'll be able to satisfy younger women for hours upon end. Of course if my manhood is erect for more than four or five hours then I must seek the advice of my urologist. But what happens if I can't hear his advice ???? "
flow....
FDA to warn Viagra users of hearing loss - Yahoo! News
Speaking of "cheesecake" and "robots" let's tune into the private and most intimate thoughts of a comely 60 year old single American man:
" Hmmmm....let's see, if I use these blue pills, I'll be able to satisfy younger women for hours upon end. Of course if my manhood is erect for more than four or five hours then I must seek the advice of my urologist. But what happens if I can't hear his advice ???? "
flow....
FDA to warn Viagra users of hearing loss - Yahoo! News
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
Re: God is the permanently unknowable region even for the intelligence enriched with
**Runs and ducks around the corner, and peeks back around for signs of flying tomatoes**
Hearing loss? Oh is that what it is? Are you sure it isn't the manifestation of the wish for selective deafness that accompanies viewing women merely as sex objects?Speaking of "cheesecake" and "robots" let's tune into the private and most intimate thoughts of a comely 60 year old single American man:
" Hmmmm....let's see, if I use these blue pills, I'll be able to satisfy younger women for hours upon end. Of course if my manhood is erect for more than four or five hours then I must seek the advice of my urologist. But what happens if I can't hear his advice ???? "
flow....
FDA to warn Viagra users of hearing loss - Yahoo! News
**Runs and ducks around the corner, and peeks back around for signs of flying tomatoes**
flowperson
Oannes
Re: God is the permanently unknowable region even for the intelligence enriched with
Hi SG...
I'm sure that psychosomatic disorders have been diagnosed by "experts" to be the real thingy at times. Maybe THAT IS what's really happening here...eh?
Although I will admit, having been married and divorced TWICE that what you cite may also be a distinct possibility. As for me...I've never even seen one 'o them thar blue pill thingys, let along took 'em.
And besides, tomatoes are so good to eat, I hardly ever throw them at intelligent women.
Then there was the guy who used to say over and over again,"do you not have eyes to see...ears to hear ?"
flow....
Hi SG...
I'm sure that psychosomatic disorders have been diagnosed by "experts" to be the real thingy at times. Maybe THAT IS what's really happening here...eh?
Although I will admit, having been married and divorced TWICE that what you cite may also be a distinct possibility. As for me...I've never even seen one 'o them thar blue pill thingys, let along took 'em.
And besides, tomatoes are so good to eat, I hardly ever throw them at intelligent women.
Then there was the guy who used to say over and over again,"do you not have eyes to see...ears to hear ?"
flow....
Nick the Pilot
Well-Known Member
~(='.'=)~
MW, You asked,
MW, You asked,
"So where does that put them in the great scheme of things?"
--> I see animals as the next human race. I believe we were the animals for the human race that came before us.
"I believe every creature has a soul and we humans are meant to be their protectors...."
--> I agree, although I see the nature of an animal's soul as quite different than a human's soul. (I also see plants and minerals as also having souls, although this take us off-topic.)
"I cannot see that an animals soul would be judged as ours will...."
--> Indeed, I think they will not. I believe each will be judged according to its "station in life", although I see an animal's "judgement" as nothing similar to a human's judgement.
"...does a shark commit a bad deed if it eats a cute baby seal, one would assume not."
--> It does not.
"Does a cat or dog that is a good companion get credited with good deeds by just being themselves...."
--> It has been said animals do not accumulate bad karma, only humans do. This makes a lot of sense to me.
"I think they have a different purpose...."
--> I do too -- to eventually become human.
Snoopy
Unknown Member
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Re: God is the permanently unknowable region even for the intelligence enriched with
Well there does seem to be your name against #1.
I mean, dude, come on. Really. Come on.
s.
Well there does seem to be your name against #1.
I mean, dude, come on. Really. Come on.
s.
Snoopy
Unknown Member
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Re: God is the permanently unknowable region even for the intelligence enriched with
I think you must be mixing me up with someone else! Anyway, sheesh. Stuff like this is bound to be developing as science and technology progresses. The rich wear robot exoskeletons to pick up silken tofu whilst the poor starve. Probably be used in crime. Probably aid loosening of family ties as the elderly will be able to get on with their lives (till the power pack fails or something and they die trapped in their suits). Maybe I just read too much science fiction. And the connection to pets is....?
s.
And Snoopy...once you become un-entranced, read the foollowing link and proffer your sage opinion (yours is welcome also EM) regarding whether this is an appropriate direction for us to turn. I find the idea rather chilling in its implications.
flow....
I think you must be mixing me up with someone else! Anyway, sheesh. Stuff like this is bound to be developing as science and technology progresses. The rich wear robot exoskeletons to pick up silken tofu whilst the poor starve. Probably be used in crime. Probably aid loosening of family ties as the elderly will be able to get on with their lives (till the power pack fails or something and they die trapped in their suits). Maybe I just read too much science fiction. And the connection to pets is....?
s.
flowperson
Oannes
Re: God is the permanently unknowable region even for the intelligence enriched with
Thank you for your lucid and candid dissection and examination of the subject matter. Of course you realize that quality science fiction stories which were written and/or portrayed in the past become today's realities.
It could be that robotic beings are already being used in crime. Maybe human beings are already being treated as pets by robotic automatons ? After all, if the Japanese could create a craze in the 70's selling the concept of rocks being pets, it's my considered opinion that any variation upon that theme might be probable in science fiction futures, which may have already turned into realities, today.
BTW, I also read a lot of Clarke, Azimov, Heinlien, Dick, Bradbury, Pohl, Finney etc. in the 50's, 60's, and 70's. No wonder we're so alike in our cynical and gassy approach to reality buddy .
flow....
I think you must be mixing me up with someone else! Anyway, sheesh. Stuff like this is bound to be developing as science and technology progresses. The rich wear robot exoskeletons to pick up silken tofu whilst the poor starve. Probably be used in crime. Probably aid loosening of family ties as the elderly will be able to get on with their lives (till the power pack fails or something and they die trapped in their suits). Maybe I just read too much science fiction. And the connection to pets is....?
s.
Thank you for your lucid and candid dissection and examination of the subject matter. Of course you realize that quality science fiction stories which were written and/or portrayed in the past become today's realities.
It could be that robotic beings are already being used in crime. Maybe human beings are already being treated as pets by robotic automatons ? After all, if the Japanese could create a craze in the 70's selling the concept of rocks being pets, it's my considered opinion that any variation upon that theme might be probable in science fiction futures, which may have already turned into realities, today.
BTW, I also read a lot of Clarke, Azimov, Heinlien, Dick, Bradbury, Pohl, Finney etc. in the 50's, 60's, and 70's. No wonder we're so alike in our cynical and gassy approach to reality buddy .
flow....
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
Re: God is the permanently unknowable region even for the intelligence enriched with
Not to mention the Japanese gigapet craze.
Hmm, what did you think about Frank Herbert's book series, Destination:Void, The Jesus Incident, The Lazarus Effect, and The Ascension Factor? What did you think of the artificial life form (named Ship) that thought he was God, and demanded WorShip from the humans who created him?BTW, I also read a lot of Clarke, Azimov, Heinlien, Dick, Bradbury, Pohl, Finney etc. in the 50's, 60's, and 70's. No wonder we're so alike in our cynical and gassy approach to reality buddy .
flow....
flowperson
Oannes
Re: God is the permanently unknowable region even for the intelligence enriched with
Hmmm...never read that one but I did read the first two Dune books by Herbert. Very good stuff for a non-trained writer, but then sometimes they are the very best ones, especially in the SFF genre'.
The Dune books were kind of tedious for me and I liked the Dune movie much better. ( the critics hated it...shows you what they know) I'm pretty sure I've got it in my collection in the back room. Great vistas and characterizations. I'll try to remember the Destination Void thingy to buy sometime when I've got some time to read and think (hahahahahahahaha!).
As if !
After reading the wiki thingy I should tell you that within the forseeable future ships will become more passe' as space travel conveyances, so the assumptions of Herbert's story will become less believable as time dances on. Looks like we're going to enter the realities of intergalactic and interplanetary teleportation, ala Stargate, sooner rather than later.
Yeah...the ship ordering the people around, kind of like the HAL thingy. By the way, did you know that I kept track of the money to build HAL at a university that built his/her prototype (no you didn't...just threw that against the wall to test sticking abilities) ?
It all gets down to metaphors of a G-d who incites fear or inspires harmonization on Earth. Sound like a familiar conflict to you?
flow....
Hmmm...never read that one but I did read the first two Dune books by Herbert. Very good stuff for a non-trained writer, but then sometimes they are the very best ones, especially in the SFF genre'.
The Dune books were kind of tedious for me and I liked the Dune movie much better. ( the critics hated it...shows you what they know) I'm pretty sure I've got it in my collection in the back room. Great vistas and characterizations. I'll try to remember the Destination Void thingy to buy sometime when I've got some time to read and think (hahahahahahahaha!).
As if !
After reading the wiki thingy I should tell you that within the forseeable future ships will become more passe' as space travel conveyances, so the assumptions of Herbert's story will become less believable as time dances on. Looks like we're going to enter the realities of intergalactic and interplanetary teleportation, ala Stargate, sooner rather than later.
Yeah...the ship ordering the people around, kind of like the HAL thingy. By the way, did you know that I kept track of the money to build HAL at a university that built his/her prototype (no you didn't...just threw that against the wall to test sticking abilities) ?
It all gets down to metaphors of a G-d who incites fear or inspires harmonization on Earth. Sound like a familiar conflict to you?
flow....
Snoopy
Unknown Member
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Re: God is the permanently unknowable region even for the intelligence enriched with
Indeed. Strange how it was just "trash genre fiction" at the time
. Ballard became my favourite. His novels are more about the mind rather than the physical world; a far more worrying place to be when you're in dystopia. Which probably explains why his novels have not been plundered by Hollywood screen writers (apart from his untypical "autobiographical" Empire of the Sun.)
s.
Indeed. Strange how it was just "trash genre fiction" at the time
I shall ignore the "gassy" bitBTW, I also read a lot of Clarke, Azimov, Heinlien, Dick, Bradbury, Pohl, Finney etc. in the 50's, 60's, and 70's. No wonder we're so alike in our cynical and gassy approach to reality buddy .
flow....
. Ballard became my favourite. His novels are more about the mind rather than the physical world; a far more worrying place to be when you're in dystopia. Which probably explains why his novels have not been plundered by Hollywood screen writers (apart from his untypical "autobiographical" Empire of the Sun.)s.
flowperson
Oannes
Re: God is the permanently unknowable region even for the intelligence enriched with
Hi Snoopy
I don't remember reading Ballard, but then I'm aged and I usually remember the stories and not the name of the authors *my bad*. Name some of his better ones and I may catch on.
Oh wait a minute, I've got to get my silver "drool cup". I hate having to change my shirtings so often.
Disregarding the gas eh ? Well that's all well and good until there comes a time for passing... as an anesthesiologist friend of mine used to say.
flow....
Hi Snoopy
I don't remember reading Ballard, but then I'm aged and I usually remember the stories and not the name of the authors *my bad*. Name some of his better ones and I may catch on.
Oh wait a minute, I've got to get my silver "drool cup". I hate having to change my shirtings so often.
Disregarding the gas eh ? Well that's all well and good until there comes a time for passing... as an anesthesiologist friend of mine used to say.
flow....