"The empty mind is the devils workshop"

[Lunitik]

Why do people say this? What will the devil work with if there is nothing there? If the devil is working, he is putting something there, if you go on thinking and thinking, how do you know where these thoughts have come from? If there is a true emptiness, nothing can be done with it. As soon as something is done, there is no longer an emptiness.

Certainly, there will be some practice needed, mind will keep asserting and some will look evil - it is simply that now all you have repressed is arising. Do not become attached to it, simply watch, look at all the ridiculousness of it. Without being directed, this is what the mind has come up with, this is you without reins. Allow it to arise, it will cleanse your being, now you can be done with it. It is funny though that it is the religions which are based around choosing which say this. Choose good, deny evil, now without reins evil will fight back - you have to understand that without identifying with it, without giving it power, it is harmless, just an idea, a cloud floating through your inner sky.

When mind is utterly empty, that is when spirituality is, that is when you see what you truly are. You cannot be deluded when mind is not, how will it happen? You cannot become depressed, afraid, mad, it is all an identification with your thoughts. All that is left is utter freedom, the vastness of truth, you are simply the whole because the very limitation of your being was a delusion all along.

 

[Etu Malku]

The quote is "An idle mind is the devil's workshop" and it's from H.G. Bohn's, "Hand-Book of Proverbs," 1855

It means somebody who is busy with work - an occupied mind as opposed to an idle one - doesn't have time to think about sinning or doing any evil.

 

[Lunitik]

The quote is "An idle mind is the devil's workshop" and it's from H.G. Bohn's, "Hand-Book of Proverbs," 1855

It means somebody who is busy with work - an occupied mind as opposed to an idle one - doesn't have time to think about sinning or doing any evil.

Ok, but they do, because they will be thinking of all the things they can do that would be better than working... most such answers tend to be sinful. Not that I uphold sin, the very concept in and of itself creates it, each law simply gives people ideas of stuff to try and get away with - and every single mature person goes through a period of rebellion, if anyone has not they simply are still a child. It is strange that Eve is considered negatively, she is the very reason you even know you're human today, we'd never have developed something as basic as language because it requires knowledge to communicate with it.

Still you have utterly missed my actual point, but that's fine.

 

[seattlegal]

Someone else brought this quote to my attention not long ago:

“All of humanity's problems stem from man's inability to sit quietly in a room alone."

~ Blaise Pascal​

 

[Snoopy]

Someone else brought this quote to my attention not long ago:

“All of humanity's problems stem from man's inability to sit quietly in a room alone."

~ Blaise Pascal​

Yes, and someone else explained the reason why

 

[NiceCupOfTea]

Someone else brought this quote to my attention not long ago:

“All of humanity's problems stem from man's inability to sit quietly in a room alone."

~ Blaise Pascal​

sounds really boring really

 

[Saltmeister]

sounds really boring really

are you going to start doing something?

we can't drink tea all day

and we're going to run out of things to talk about .......

someone is going to excuse themselves from the table so they can go home

and then you're going to be all alone

pretty soon you're going to start thinking of smashing your next-door neighbour's window

or asking his wife to come over for a ........ never mind

 

[Etu Malku]

Ok, but they do, because they will be thinking of all the things they can do that would be better than working... most such answers tend to be sinful. Not that I uphold sin, the very concept in and of itself creates it, each law simply gives people ideas of stuff to try and get away with - and every single mature person goes through a period of rebellion, if anyone has not they simply are still a child. It is strange that Eve is considered negatively, she is the very reason you even know you're human today, we'd never have developed something as basic as language because it requires knowledge to communicate with it.

Still you have utterly missed my actual point, but that's fine.

I love how I knock you off your pedestal, you admit it, climb back up, and declare I have utterly missed your actual point! When in fact you have no clue whether I got your point or did miss it . . . that my friend is Ego reigning Supreme

 

[Saltmeister]

and every single mature person goes through a period of rebellion, if anyone has not they simply are still a child.

yes, if you think swearing, drinking alcohol or having sex before marriage is wrong, you've got to either try it out or do a thought experiment -- you have to convince yourself to accept that it isn't really that bad. After that you can go back to considering the negative consequences, that yes, they can be destructive, but everyone must be given their free choice because you can only take responsibility for your own actions.

There's a good reason to do this -- it's because one day you will either change your mind about the "sin," or you will find yourself in a situation where the "sin" is inevitable. You may well go on thinking you're better than those who engage in such a frowned-upon activity, or you can change your mind now and save yourself the heartache of violating your own set of ethics and disappointing those who know about it and count on you staying loyal to it. Better to be a rebel today than to be a red-faced hypocrite 20 years later.

It is indeed wise to rebel now than later.

It is strange that Eve is considered negatively, she is the very reason you even know you're human today, we'd never have developed something as basic as language because it requires knowledge to communicate with it.

agreed, we're all better off because of her

 

[Vajradhara]

i think where Schrodinger's Cat lives is actually the Devil's workshop!

 

[NiceCupOfTea]

are you going to start doing something?

we can't drink tea all day

well there is always Beer

and we're going to run out of things to talk about .......

someone is going to excuse themselves from the table so they can go home

and then you're going to be all alone

pretty soon you're going to start thinking of smashing your next-door neighbour's window

or asking his wife to come over for a ........ never mind

think if man was happy to sit on his arse not much would get done, we would never have left the oceans let alone the trees.

or maybe what was why we left the oceans for a more comfortable place for our bottoms.

and if man was supposed to sit on his arse doing nothing, man would have evolved huge comfortable bottoms, come to think of it perhaps that is where evolution is heading ?

 

[Thomas]

Why do people say this?

Well it's contextual ... I don't think they are saying it in response to a spiritual discipline or meditation training.

What will the devil work with if there is nothing there?

There is never 'nothing there' ... what is there is being that transcends the world of 'things', be they ideas of forms or material presences, but being is there ... to say there's nothing is like discussing the contents of an empty cup.

Another saying is:
"All that is required for evil to flourish is the good man to do nothing."

The way of Enlightenment is not to do or be nothing. As Eckhart says, "My truest I is God" — but God is not nothing.

f there is a true emptiness, nothing can be done with it. As soon as something is done, there is no longer an emptiness.

Well that opens the debate on 'true emptiness'. what is referred to as emptiness is so because what is there is beyond forms, beyond manifestation, but it contains all forms, all manifestations in an undifferentiated state, thus it is neither being nor not-being, neither acting nor not-acting. It is the Motionless Mover, the Cause that suffers no cause. The Arche Anarchos or the Apeiron of Anaximander ...

I would say 'true emptiness' is actually the absolute and infinite Principle, and is All-Perfect, All-Possible ... of course, both you and I are pushing language beyond its limits in this discussion.

Do not become attached to it, simply watch, look at all the ridiculousness of it. Without being directed, this is what the mind has come up with, this is you without reins. Allow it to arise, it will cleanse your being, now you can be done with it.

No, evil cannot cleanse, as that would be good, and no good can come from evil.

It is funny though that it is the religions which are based around choosing which say this.

Those religions that recognise the fundamental gift of selfhood and freedom, and the Giver, yes ... and I would have it no other way.

Choose good, deny evil...

Why introduce duality where none need exist?

Be good ... that's it. Be good for goodness sake. There's no need to invent other reasons why.

you have to understand that without identifying with it, without giving it power, it is harmless, just an idea, a cloud floating through your inner sky.

D'you think so ... I hope you never discover the truth of it.

Or put it another way ... does that include ignoring it when someone else is the victim of evil? Do you not see that evil will flourish as long as you keep your nose in the clouds?

This is not, nor will it ever be, a perfect world. You can't pretend it is by ignoring what's wrong. This is the world you live in.

Evil is the only real 'nothing', because it possesses no actual being as such (all being coming from God, and all being is good), no reality as such ...

... But in the world of ideas and the world of things, in the world of finite and contingent forms, evil is very real, and very harmful, and highly addictive.

When mind is utterly empty, that is when spirituality is, that is when you see what you truly are.

What are you? How can the mind be empty and spiritual? How can you see what you truly are when there is nothing to be seen, nothing of the seer?

You're confusing levels.

You cannot be deluded when mind is not, how will it happen?

So what do you suggest, frontal lobotomies all round?

I'm not being facetious, I think you're being somewhat romantically naive.

All that is left is utter freedom, the vastness of truth, you are simply the whole because the very limitation of your being was a delusion all along.

Ah, the last bit saves the day, but for one thing:
Your corporate being is not, at the level of corporate beings, a delusion. The only aspect of delusion is thinking that that is all there is.

There is more to me than my corporeality ... indeed, my corporeality is the least of who I am, but it is as real, in its own way, as any other aspect of my being ... and I know my being is real only inasmuch as it participates in being-as-such.

Enlightenment is not an 'Indian rope trick', one doesn't disappear into the clouds, being enlightened means one is where one is, and sees things as they are, and are not ... it is just that it is not all there is.

God is not deluded in creating ... so creation is, in its very being, not a delusion, rather delusion signified a limitation of vision, and that is where fantasia and evil (illusion and nothing) fills the space.

God bless

Thomas

 

[radarmark]

Thomas, quite good reply, IMHO. Theodicy, the Problem of Evil, and the notion of Evil itslef is a universal, basic concern the world over. It is the shadow ourside the light the ghost beyond actual entities or experience.

It is part of redemption to resist evil, to speak up for G!d's justice insofar as we are capable.

This, as you said, becomes a really hard issue to keep on one level.

 

[Lunitik]

sounds really boring really

What is boredom other than exactly the inability to site alone silently?

 

[Lunitik]

i think where Schrodinger's Cat lives is actually the Devil's workshop!

Certain it is where fear arises: the unknown.

What is hell but the manifestation of fear?

 

[Lunitik]

No, evil cannot cleanse, as that would be good, and no good can come from evil.

Good perfected isn't a cleansing either, though.

Evil gives meaning to goodness, it provides a contrast, and in that it is beautiful. Again, if you go deeply into evil, if there is no more love in you, again you will certainly be in a trouble. Variety is absolutely necessary in life, else you are just waiting for death, perfection means you are finished.

That is the problem with many religions, you create a perfect idealism and you strive for it. The ideal is simply impossible, the more you strive, the more you will become frustrated. Who has ever created more evil than those striving for good? We can see it today in the Arab world, especially in places like Afghanistan, this is absolute goodness by scripture, but it looks absolutely unjust - it has become a hell for the people living in it, there is no flavor in their life. Goodness in the extreme turns evil, it is better to be in the middle.

It is not only with Islam though, every religion has come to this point eventually. You have to be able to see it is already perfect as it is, then there is a transcending, when you can accept without choosing, without analyzing, then there is happiness and enjoying. Your very notion of evil or bad will cause you to look for it and see it everywhere, then the world will look like a disgusting place, but it is only your perception.

 

[Lunitik]

Existence is absolutely against perfection, against extremes, that is why it goes on balancing. You pull in one direction and it will counter with an equal dose of the opposite, it is a natural law, Newton has figured out that it is so with matter, but it goes into every aspect of life, it is fundamental to existence, to life itself. Mind cannot seem to accept things as they are, it always wants something to be different, it thinks always things can get better. It is simply pointless though, the better you try to make things, the worse off things become because your better is not a balanced thing. This is the whole problem with humanity, always we become fixed on some extreme, either we are idealistic or fatalistic - either we think things have to be better, or we think things cannot be better - but in reality there is no comparison possible, things are already in proportion. If you want things to be really better you have to reduce the other extreme but now there is a monotony. No, all of life taken together creates something worth living, contrasts create tensions, and these keep things interesting.

For me, both your heaven and your hell look horrible, either there is an extreme of sweetness or an extreme of saltiness. Maybe the sweet will be enjoyable for a time, but eventually your teeth will rot and you get diabetes which unchecked will kill you. In saltiness, again, too much and you will die. All around, life constantly points you to the middle, only mind strives for the extreme and THAT creates depression, all sorts of suffering. No extreme has ever fulfilled, cannot bring a salvation, it is because you never stop to appreciate. How can you appreciate something you think is flawed? If you are trying to improve it, you are not grateful for it, you aren't accepting the gift, then you wonder why there is such problems with psychology of people. It is because they are realizing no striving is making them happy, they just attain and then want more.

This is it, this is life, this moment is absolute perfection, enjoy it, appreciate it, and gradually you find it is a love affair with the whole. At the height of that, at the very peak, there is the ultimate fulfillment. If you want to control something, cause it to change, you have no love for it, you cannot even permit it as it is. The entirety is God's work, to deny any part is to deny God, to find imperfection is to find God imperfect... it only shows you simply don't understand, you are too small minded. In the market down in the valley, it will look a chaos, you may be confused by all that is happening. Look from atop the mountain though and suddenly there is a cosmos, you see their pattern. This is as existence, in the moment it may seem unjust, but if you look at the whole you can find it exactly a justice.

 

[Lunitik]

In an extreme example, a young girl is rapped and killed - can we really say this man is evil? We will have to look at why it has happened, why has this man resorted to this? It is because there is such repression in the world that his sexuality has come to an extreme and he has acted out. It is a problem of society at large, the evil is our view on sexuality, how much we run from it, how we never enjoy this fully. Now we have lost a young girl needlessly because he has become scared and wants to lose all evidence of his deed, so we lash out at the man and perhaps kill him as well - now society has lost two lives instead of one, it is bizarre.

Certainly, the man should be treated, but do not simply say he is evil, he is as much a victim as the little girl. Always, something turns in these people and then we punish the result, few ever consider the cause. The most evil always stems from some instance of our attempt to be good as a society, it is our own good intentions that has created such beasts. We never see it though, we never understand so we go on repressing society and wonder why it keeps happening. It happens because existence wants balance, it happens because humans are fundamentally imbalanced thanks to our societal ideals. Eventually, if you repress something for long enough, it will seek revenge, it becomes an obsession and takes over you.

Try to seek love and you pull along hate with you, seek celibacy and there is perversion - it is because your concept depends on the opposite. Drop the seeking and it is no more a problem, do not be against the sought, now you move to the other extreme, simply drop it. Now only virtue is possible, before it was a learned morality. Gradually love will flow in you, it arises of itself when there is no tension, that must be our guides but it is not something of the mind. This will naturally lead to a better society, a better world, but it will not be purposeful at all, it will simply have been permitted.

 

[Bhaktajan II]

"Ode to Lunitik where ever he is"
​

by Sir Thomas of Interfaith dot Org

Well it's contextual ... I don't think they are saying it in response to a spiritual discipline or meditation training.


There is never 'nothing there' ... what is there is being that transcends the world of 'things', be they ideas of forms or material presences, but being is there ... to say there's nothing is like discussing the contents of an empty cup.

Another saying is:
"All that is required for evil to flourish is the good man to do nothing."

The way of Enlightenment is not to do or be nothing. As Eckhart says, "My truest I is God" — but God is not nothing.


Well that opens the debate on 'true emptiness'. what is referred to as emptiness is so because what is there is beyond forms, beyond manifestation, but it contains all forms, all manifestations in an undifferentiated state, thus it is neither being nor not-being, neither acting nor not-acting. It is the Motionless Mover, the Cause that suffers no cause. The Arche Anarchos or the Apeiron of Anaximander ...

I would say 'true emptiness' is actually the absolute and infinite Principle, and is All-Perfect, All-Possible ... of course, both you and I are pushing language beyond its limits in this discussion.


No, evil cannot cleanse, as that would be good, and no good can come from evil.


Those religions that recognise the fundamental gift of selfhood and freedom, and the Giver, yes ... and I would have it no other way.


Why introduce duality where none need exist?

Be good ... that's it. Be good for goodness sake. There's no need to invent other reasons why.


D'you think so ... I hope you never discover the truth of it.

Or put it another way ... does that include ignoring it when someone else is the victim of evil? Do you not see that evil will flourish as long as you keep your nose in the clouds?

This is not, nor will it ever be, a perfect world. You can't pretend it is by ignoring what's wrong. This is the world you live in.

Evil is the only real 'nothing', because it possesses no actual being as such (all being coming from God, and all being is good), no reality as such ...

... But in the world of ideas and the world of things, in the world of finite and contingent forms, evil is very real, and very harmful, and highly addictive.


What are you? How can the mind be empty and spiritual? How can you see what you truly are when there is nothing to be seen, nothing of the seer?

You're confusing levels.


So what do you suggest, frontal lobotomies all round?

I'm not being facetious, I think you're being somewhat romantically naive.


Ah, the last bit saves the day, but for one thing:
Your corporate being is not, at the level of corporate beings, a delusion. The only aspect of delusion is thinking that that is all there is.

There is more to me than my corporeality ... indeed, my corporeality is the least of who I am, but it is as real, in its own way, as any other aspect of my being ... and I know my being is real only inasmuch as it participates in being-as-such.

Enlightenment is not an 'Indian rope trick', one doesn't disappear into the clouds, being enlightened means one is where one is, and sees things as they are, and are not ... it is just that it is not all there is.

God is not deluded in creating ... so creation is, in its very being, not a delusion, rather delusion signified a limitation of vision, and that is where fantasia and evil (illusion and nothing) fills the space.

God bless

Thomas

The Arche Anarchos or the Apeiron of Anaximander ...

Now that's Banter Par Excellance.

 

[Lunitik]

All is good exactly because it provides interest in this place, it makes life worth living when there is contrast, and that balance is good. Man has decided to be against half and for half, this is the nature of the original split from God, now we must continuously seek our way home. When duality is transcended, then you understand the vast emptiness that is existence, truth. It is not empty as a lacking, it is empty as a potential, as simply energy, with the heart we say it is love, with eyes we say it is light, with ears we say aum. How so ever it is perceived, it is right to say all arises from it, including what you have decided is evil. Evil is merely a blocking of the flow of energy, but it gives good a flavor, a richness. If you go too deeply into love, it becomes too sweet, you will feel claustrophobic and want to escape - you have to move away, but that is essentially hate, a repellent feeling. When you hate, now you can come again and love deeper, your love has been recharged with the distance.

Never look at the bottom rung of the ladder and say you are against it, it is just as much a part of the ladder as the top, allow life to have some spice, otherwise you have only half your being. Choosing half, you are there and so God will leave you alone, by dropping choices, then there is a space where God can come in. It does not mean that you choose both or choose neither either though, the point is you simply be receptive. Do not purposely do anything, allow the current of life to take you where it will and simply enjoy. It takes a great awareness though, it is very subtle. Seeing evil, you create a hell, striving to be good you create a false persona... stop striving, stop permitting mind to be the master, being should be the master, not the mind.

There is only one Being, and that is God.